An interesting topic from my holocaust class...what do you think?

[sacall]

Okay, this upsets me every time I hear it. There were 11 million people killed in the holocaust. Everyone mentions the 6 million Jews and totally ignores the other 5 million people. That's 5 million - 5,000,000 - people who are generally ignored and forgotten about.

Thank you for remembering the other victims, such as my two great Uncles and a great Aunt (Poland), who all died in the Auschwitz/Birkenau camps. My grandmother thought that one Uncle was picked up because he didn't have his papers, the other one was picked up because he was in some type of resistance movement. We are not sure about what happened to the Aunt or why she was picked up and sent to a camp.

Stacy

 

[DoeWDW]

The point of college is to teach you how to think for yourself, instead of just blinding believing someone else. If that is the case in this class and if other points of view are also respected then I don't see anything wrong with bringing out various theories and examining them.

As someone else stated, Hitler (and all those other dictators) surely believed that he was doing something right and good. Very Machiavellian thinking - the ends justify the means - I have to do this terrible thing because greater good will ultimately come out of it.

Was Hitler right? Absolutely not!! Was he evil? Definitely! However, I can't pin all this on Hitler. He alone could not kill that many people. He did not act individually and I hold every single person that helped him accountable. I've often wondered about the culture of Germany at the time and how his plans could have been carried out by so many different people who all went along with this horrendous idea.

Of course, this also leads me to wonder how these kinds of atrocities still go on in the world today, like the situation in Sudan.

 

[Disney Doll]

I stand corrected on the examining the holocaust from all sides issue. When I responded, I had only read the first post which does not mention that.

One might argue that all murderers are mentally ill but I would hate to see Hitler's actions get wrapped into a neat little package in our oh so PC world. He had planned to exterminate all the Jews for years and when he got his opportunity, that's exactly what he tried to do.

Mentally ill? Maybe. Pure unadulterated evil? Absolutely!

I am not saying that Hitler wasn't responsible for his actions because he was mentally ill. And I agree that Hitler is evil. But I came to these conclusions after taking history courses in college where I heard many differeing viewpoints, had many professors playing "devil's advocate", had many professors and classmates who gave me different perspectives to consider so I could come up weith my own perspective.

In other words, college made me think.

 

[Disney Doll]

Sorry if I upset you. Actually I added that into one of my posts but then deleted it because it was too lengthy. But you're right. There was a huge number of others killed.

Strangely enough my class only concentrates on the Jews that Hitler killed. I'm not really sure why.....

Most discussions about the Holocaust only focus onthe Jewish aspect of it and forget the other 5 millions Catholics, mentally ******** and others who were killed. I am not sure why either.

 

[CheshireVal]

Was Hitler right? Absolutely not!! Was he evil? Definitely! However, I can't pin all this on Hitler. He alone could not kill that many people. He did not act individually and I hold every single person that helped him accountable. I've often wondered about the culture of Germany at the time and how his plans could have been carried out by so many different people who all went along with this horrendous idea.

While I can't say that the German public was completely oblivious to what was happening, I think most of them were just too terrified to really *do* anything about it. They were also being fed tons and tons of propaganda from the gov't. They knew that the Jews were being taken somewhere but I don't think many could have every comprehended what was really going on.

Hitler was basically a dictator with a band of similarly-minded followers. He had an army to do his bidding. That isn't to say that every German serving in the military at that time was actually a Nazi, but when your government has been taken over by a mad man, times are tough....

 

[Maleficent13]

While I agree with DisneyDoll and CheshireVal that college is to make you think, when I first read the OP, my mind immediately went to the group of people who are now trying to convince the world that the holocaust never happened and that people were never exterminated. If a prof in college was trying to teach me that, I'd have a huge problem with it, and I actually might go to the dean about it.

But, the OP didn't say that this was what was happening. If the prof is just spouting theories about why the holocaust happened, then that's fine. But I'd be paying careful attention to what's actually being said to make sure it was just an exercise in mind expansion.

 

[Microcell]

I assume you are in college? This is just a way for your professor to try to make a name for himself. It is his theory du jour to write papers on and get recognition for.

I had a poly sci professor that basically predicted 911 with his speculation on the fall of the Soviet Union meaning several small countries and that the US would emerge to be the world's police because of the need to protect itself. Then as a big "Policeman" we would be subject to violence on our soil. He was the only one who was right in all of my college years!

 

[Rex Rules]

Sounds like this teacher is trying to put a "positive" spin on the Holocaust - and that is SIMPLY NOT POSSIBLE. It was decided and whether it was because he was evil or insane or any other reason is simply not acceptable.

 

[Hercules10]

Okay, this upsets me every time I hear it. There were 11 million people killed in the holocaust. Everyone mentions the 6 million Jews and totally ignores the other 5 million people. That's 5 million - 5,000,000 - people who are generally ignored and forgotten about.

Thank you! Of the other 5 million a lot were Poles. Exterminated without regard to religion. Many were still persecuted after the war by the Russians.

 

[LauraR]

Don't really understand why your lecturer doesn't see this kind of evil as possible. In 1994 we saw nearly a million Tutsis in Rwanda massacred in Rwanda by the Hutus. This occurred mainly over a 100 day period and it was an intentional effort to exterminate an entire group of people. These kinds of things are never done by one person, but there's always someone in leadership who has the power and motivation to make it happen (as others have stated, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc.) It's sad, and it's scary, but it's part of human potential to be this evil.

 

[bajanswife]

Most discussions about the Holocaust only focus onthe Jewish aspect of it and forget the other 5 millions Catholics, mentally ******** and others who were killed. I am not sure why either.

And plenty of good German "Aryans" (the "typically German" race that Hitler was trying to promote) were killed as well for speaking out against the Third Reich, for hiding or associating with Jews etc.

It's difficult to say what any of us would have done if we were Aryans in Germany back then. At first, many of them would not have known what was going on, because the TR started out by weeding out the criminals, poor Jews etc. Bit by bit the circle widened to include more and more categories of "undesirables". It would have taken a while for people to realize that there was a systematic plan being carried out. Also, there were many rumours about where people were being taken, and there was at least one "show" camp i.e. a camp that the U.N. etc. could be shown as the "model" camp so they thought the Jews were all going to work camps/villages instead of death camps.

It's very difficult to speak out about the Gov't when there are spies everywhere, you don't know if someone will report you, and you know that if you do get reported the SS will come for you in the middle of the night and either shoot you on the spot or take you away to a death camp. It must have been very difficult for everyone back then - I imagine that most of those who were too scared to do anything (or TRY to do anything) about what was going on must have carried a fair amount of guilt with them to their graves. I can also understand there being a fair amount who just could not believe that such rumoured atrocities were being carried out - a genteel lady in the 1930s/1940s would have had a hard time wrapping her mind around what she was hearing.

Remember too, it was required for ALL young men to join the Youth Army - and there they were "brainwashed" into the "master race" idea. Hitler was really a mastermind at controlling a huge number of people. When it's drilled into your head at age 16 how filthy Jews were, how they'd steal from you given any opportunity, how they were sullying up Germany just by living there, not to mention inter-breeding ..... well, I can see how hatred could stem from such vile lies. They took impressionable youths and fed them a bunch of awful lies in order to gan their cooperation - that's how they got such an army together that would carry out Hitler's orders. It's not that hard to comprehend. I actually feel sorry for the army men who were led into performing such acts, and then when the war was over and all the truths came to light about what the camps were like etc., those men realized what atocities they'd actually had a hand in .... it must have been a terrible thing to live with. I'm sure many repented, and many probably committed suicide because they couldn't live with themselves. I have some compassion for all involved in the Holocaust (except the ones who masterminded it all, and the ones who enjoyed what they were doing), though obviously I have the most compassion for those who suffered the most i.e. the victms and their families. And I am in awe of those who risked their lives for their principles - not everyone has that courage.

 

[Viking]

So this guy has never heard of what happened in Rwuanda, in former Yugoslavia, etc?
Concentration camps were invented by the British during the Boer Wars in South Africa, so we Germans weren't even the first to use them.
And looking back in American history, the genocide of the Native Americans was also evil - But I guess that teacher thinks they all committed suicide

Things like this should not but can happen again, but nowadays we at least have an international community, which interferes comparatively quick, but unfortunately not always quick enough.

I must admit that even for me, who has been to Dachau, who was taught a lot about the holocaust, it still is hard to grasp what happened in my country a bit more than just 60 years ago.
But everybody who read the book knows that the 'Endlösung' was already mentioned in 'Mein Kampf', which was written in the late twenties. So there was a plan behind it.

 

[Hercules10]

My lecturer argues that it is simply not possible for someone to be so evil that they just 'decide' to kill 6 million jews in a cruel and systematic way.

You might ask him why in Germany it is illegal to deny the holocaust happened.

 

[Viking]

And plenty of good German "Aryans" (the "typically German" race that Hitler was trying to promote) were killed as well for speaking out against the Third Reich, for hiding or associating with Jews etc.

It's difficult to say what any of us would have done if we were Aryans in Germany back then. At first, many of them would not have known what was going on, because the TR started out by weeding out the criminals, poor Jews etc. Bit by bit the circle widened to include more and more categories of "undesirables". It would have taken a while for people to realize that there was a systematic plan being carried out. Also, there were many rumours about where people were being taken, and there was at least one "show" camp i.e. a camp that the U.N. etc. could be shown as the "model" camp so they thought the Jews were all going to work camps/villages instead of death camps.

It's very difficult to speak out about the Gov't when there are spies everywhere, you don't know if someone will report you, and you know that if you do get reported the SS will come for you in the middle of the night and either shoot you on the spot or take you away to a death camp. It must have been very difficult for everyone back then - I imagine that most of those who were too scared to do anything (or TRY to do anything) about what was going on must have carried a fair amount of guilt with them to their graves. I can also understand there being a fair amount who just could not believe that such rumoured atrocities were being carried out - a genteel lady in the 1930s/1940s would have had a hard time wrapping her mind around what she was hearing.

Remember too, it was required for ALL young men to join the Youth Army - and there they were "brainwashed" into the "master race" idea. Hitler was really a mastermind at controlling a huge number of people. When it's drilled into your head at age 16 how filthy Jews were, how they'd steal from you given any opportunity, how they were sullying up Germany just by living there, not to mention inter-breeding ..... well, I can see how hatred could stem from such vile lies. They took impressionable youths and fed them a bunch of awful lies in order to gan their cooperation - that's how they got such an army together that would carry out Hitler's orders. It's not that hard to comprehend. I actually feel sorry for the army men who were led into performing such acts, and then when the war was over and all the truths came to light about what the camps were like etc., those men realized what atocities they'd actually had a hand in .... it must have been a terrible thing to live with. I'm sure many repented, and many probably committed suicide because they couldn't live with themselves. I have some compassion for all involved in the Holocaust (except the ones who masterminded it all, and the ones who enjoyed what they were doing), though obviously I have the most compassion for those who suffered the most i.e. the victms and their families. And I am in awe of those who risked their lives for their principles - not everyone has that courage.

Well said!!!!
My Gramps was a drafted soldier joining the German Air Force at age 26 in 1939 and he simply served his country, followed orders. Not before he returned from a French POW-camp in 1948 he really learned wath happened in his country. Nevertheless people living in that era should have asked questions instead of following blindly and believing everything. Hitler and his cronies didn't tell the public what they were up to - But the public didn't ask either.
I don't know what I would have done - especially as at 5'11'', blond and blue-eyed I would have fit into their picture of an Aryan perfectly. It is easy to say now 'I would have joined the resistance!!' without knowing enough about those times.
The most important thing is that everybody works for not making things like this happen again!!!

 

[Viking]

You might ask him why in Germany it is illegal to deny the holocaust happened.

Better: Invite him over here and tell him to deny it publicly

 

[Kermit]

The pastor at a church we used to attend once visited Auschwitz. When he came back, he said that if you walk away thinking, "How could someone be so evil?", you didn't get it. He said that the appropriate response would be to realize that we ALL have the capability to be that evil. Most of us supress it, for a variety of reasons and with a variety of methods, but we all have the capacity to be that evil.

I also don't think there's any reason to report him. College professors take weird stances to make a name for themselves.

 

[CheshireVal]

Well said!!!!
My Gramps was a drafted soldier joining the German Air Force at age 26 in 1939 and he simply served his country, followed orders. Not before he returned from a French POW-camp in 1948 he really learned wath happened in his country. Nevertheless people living in that era should have asked questions instead of following blindly and believing everything. Hitler and his cronies didn't tell the public what they were up to - But the public didn't ask either.
I don't know what I would have done - especially as at 5'11'', blond and blue-eyed I would have fit into their picture of an Aryan perfectly. It is easy to say now 'I would have joined the resistance!!' without knowing enough about those times.
The most important thing is that everybody works for not making things like this happen again!!!

Exactly. My grandfather was killed when the Americans bombed his U-boat. He wasn't a Nazi-- he was just serving in the Navy. My grandmother doesn't really like to talk much about those times, but it's true that most Germans really didn't know even half the whole story of what was happening.

I'm not sure what I would have done if I had been there in those times. So scary.

 

[DoeWDW]

Please don't misunderstand me. I have the utmost compassion for those in Germany, both civilian and military, who didn't know or were caught up in a small part of the master plan. Not sure what I would have done either.

My point was that Hitler alone could not have conceived of and carried out this plan - there were others at the top who did know that they were systematically planning the murders of many many innocent people. My disdain is for that group at the top.

 

[Microcell]

I assume you are in college? This is just a way for your professor to try to make a name for himself. It is his theory du jour to write papers on and get recognition for.

I had a poly sci professor that basically predicted 911 with his speculation on the fall of the Soviet Union meaning several small countries and that the US would emerge to be the world's police because of the need to protect itself. Then as a big "Policeman" we would be subject to violence on our soil. He was the only one who was right in all of my college years!

 

[Viking]

Please don't misunderstand me. I have the utmost compassion for those in Germany, both civilian and military, who didn't know or were caught up in a small part of the master plan. Not sure what I would have done either.

My point was that Hitler alone could not have conceived of and carried out this plan - there were others at the top who did know that they were systematically planning the murders of many many innocent people. My disdain is for that group at the top.

You are absolutely right. There was an 'elite' (Although that word is far too positive to describe them) at the top. Those people planned and directed everything, but there were also thousands of guards in service at the camps who exactly knew what they were doing. Or even more horrible: Scientists, even MDs, who 'used the opportunity' to perform horrible experiments. Or business men who simply denounced competitors to the SS to get rid of them. Even simple people who took advantage by taking over businesses of deported jews at low prices, buying their houses for a song, etc.
Erich Kästner, a German novelist and poet, once said in one of his books: 'Not only those are guilty of a crime who commit it, but also those who knowingly let it happen.'
So IMHO everyone of that generation in my country, who was not actively resisting the Nazi-regime bears at least some responsibility for what happened then. (Un)fortunately the Cold War came then very quickly after WWII and the Allied Powers needed us as an ally against the communists. Additionally many of the 'brains' were also very useful i.e. for the USA. Just look at Wernher von Braun: He had slave labourers working for him in his underground rocket factory under inhuman conditions. Many of them died due to this. Von Braun should have done time for this, but because he was the world's leading capacity in rocket science and there was dire need for him in the USA everything was soon forgotten. There are similar cases in Britain, of course in the Soviet Union, and even some in France.
And additionally it has long since been proven that American Inteliggence Services knew about was what happening in the camps well before 1941 - Nevertheless America hesitated to intervene. Fortunately the USA then changed its stance after Pearl Harbour and saved our butts - together with the British, the Canadians, the Russians and the French.