Amazed and Disappointed

[Amy&Dan]

We were in WDW July 10-18. We went to MK in some capacity every day. I have to agree with those that said it's much more crowded, which is very obvious when attempting to leave at night.

Our nighttime MK trips can give a glimpse at variety of leaving times- 8-8:30 pm, 9:15ish, 9:30, and 10:00. All were miserable in one way or another in my opinion. In a somewhat scatterbrained way, I'll lay it out for you:

* BTG sitting in the middle of Main Street: if you can imagine a group of teens stretching between the trolley rails for a decent 20-30 yards, you can imagine what sort of an obstacle was created by BTG who were either waiting for fireworks or not ready to move after fireworks.

Rain: we all know rain will clear a park out quickly. When you combine a large population density with a downpour, it's recipe for disaster.

Wall-to-wall people: specifically at the 9:30 and 10pm exits, it was as if we were a zombie-fied, slow moving pack, slowly lumbering toward the exits.

Some nights, all three of these characteristics combined, just as if three villains united to reek havoc on a peaceful city. Other nights it was just one. Either way, it took much longer than usual to exit in an orderly and timely fashion.

So, what should Disney do? The rain can't be helped, the tour groups are sort of out of Disney control... there can either be a better exit protocol, extended hours, additional opportunities other than DS for after 10pm fun.

This sums it up perfectly. Our dates were July 13 to the 24th. We had a total of ten park days/nights. Six of those were at MK and each night it was a logistical nightmare getting anywhere after fireworks. Whether it was leaving the park or trying to get on one last ride after fireworks. The emh night we did in particular was a nightmare.

Epcot at night much easier, not that crowded at all especially one of our nights when heavy rain had a lot of people leave. . Had it not been for the massive number of BTG's it would have been perfect. Unfortunately the rain didn't cause them to leave or forgo their clapping, chanting, holding hands and virtually running everyone in their path over.

Didn't do DHS at night but we did do two rope drop mornings there and both were great.

AK was very crowded but very doable. However our one late night there was a bit of a bust. The after hours in Pandora were worthless to us. We couldn't even walk through to enjoy the atmosphere it was so packed. Thankfully fastpass had allowed us to ride both the rides earlier. But we didn't get to enjoy the after dark feel of it due to crowds.

Bottom line for us was we rode plenty but had to really adjust our touring plans. And we came to just accept that leaving MK was going to be awful. But we loved HEA so dang much we couldn't not be in that park late lol. I must say the Contemporary and the ability to walk there from.MK has never looked more appealing. They desperately need to extend hours imho but I am not holding my breath.

As for later AK hours being an equitable trade off for us that isn't true. AK in many ways is my most favorite park. However after dark it doesn't hold up for us. Again just an opinion. ROL vs other nighttime shows is a one and done thing for me. The fact that only Pandora is open late makes their midnight closing worthless for my family. Epcot and Studios both have nothing going past 9:30 leaving my night owl loving family suffering through a first world problem that while trivial was very annoying given our many years of having late MK hours, DHS having two Fantasmic shows and evening emh and late pool hours.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

This sums it up perfectly. Our dates were July 13 to the 24th. We had a total of ten park days/nights. Six of those were at MK and each night it was a logistical nightmare getting anywhere after fireworks. Whether it was leaving the park or trying to get on one last ride after fireworks. The emh night we did in particular was a nightmare.

Epcot at night much easier, not that crowded at all especially one of our nights when heavy rain had a lot of people leave. . Had it not been for the massive number of BTG's it would have been perfect. Unfortunately the rain didn't cause them to leave or forgo their clapping, chanting, holding hands and virtually running everyone in their path over.

Didn't do DHS at night but we did do two rope drop mornings there and both were great.

AK was very crowded but very doable. However our one late night there was a bit of a bust. The after hours in Pandora were worthless to us. We couldn't even walk through to enjoy the atmosphere it was so packed. Thankfully fastpass had allowed us to ride both the rides earlier. But we didn't get to enjoy the after dark feel of it due to crowds.

Bottom line for us was we rode plenty but had to really adjust our touring plans. And we came to just accept that leaving MK was going to be awful. But we loved HEA so dang much we couldn't not be in that park late lol. I must say the Contemporary and the ability to walk there from.MK has never looked more appealing. They desperately need to extend hours imho but I am not holding my breath.

As for later AK hours being an equitable trade off for us that isn't true. AK in many ways is my most favorite park. However after dark it doesn't hold up for us. Again just an opinion. ROL vs other nighttime shows is a one and done thing for me. The fact that only Pandora is open late makes their midnight closing worthless for my family. Epcot and Studios both have nothing going past 9:30 leaving my night owl loving family suffering through a first world problem that while trivial was very annoying given our many years of having late MK hours, DHS having two Fantasmic shows and evening emh and late pool hours.

All so well put -- I hope you write to Disney to voice this.

 

[rlp]

There isn't one time when I was at the parks the week of June 19 where I felt like I didn't have enough time in the day. Not once.

Many people, such as I, much much much prefer some of the parks like the Magic Kingdom at night. It is much more magical IMO and cooler. Many people like to rope drop, take a long afternoon break and then go back and stay late in the parks. Longer hours disperses crowds more.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Many people, such as I, much much much prefer some of the parks like the Magic Kingdom at night. It is much more magical IMO and cooler. Many people like to rope drop, take a long afternoon break and then go back and stay late in the parks. Longer hours disperses crowds more.

Yes, we do rope drop. We took afternoon breaks this trip because we had a 4 and 5 year old with us. But TomorrowLand, Jungle Cruise, and BTMRR are awesome at night.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I'd be interested in seeing if this trend carried onto July and part of August but Disney Tourist Blog (Edited it's not Touring Plans-opps) has an article written at the end of this June titled: "Summer Isn't Peak Season at Disney World Anymore" The only reason I even mention this is because a lot of people value at least some parts of Touring Plans (Edited: again it was Disney Tourist Blog not Touring Plans). With the article they talk about last July and this June and then some possible reasons as to why. I didn't know if I could link the story itself but it's easy to google. Again I'd be interested in seeing if they noticed this tread this July and August as well.

I do know the DIS Unplugged WDW Edition from Tuesday also talked about lower crowds (ETA: This isn't the first time though that they have talked about lower crowds) . I thought their discussion was good and balanced too-being able to express frustration at X and Y but also talk about Z too. They talked about discounts that are not normally offered, construction concerns, park hours, etc. Now I don't know exactly 100% why on the magical (pun intended) reason for park closing time being earlier for MK (crowds, profits, etc) but I do find it interesting how focused the talk has been for the last year and this year regarding crowd levels shifting here and there.

The beginning of the discussion starts at 18mins 30seconds where the extra % discount on certain restaurants at resorts for DVC and AP holders through September launches the broader discussion. A bit of talk about earlier park hrs starts at 33mins 20-ish seconds. I do think watching at least from the 18mins 30 seconds mark and on gives a more complete story into the bigger picture that the Podcast crew is talking about though. That main discussion ends at just after 36mins. The rest of the Podcast talks about reactions from a poll on the D23 news.

*This all being said this isn't me giving my stance on the subject matter, this is me just passing along some information.*

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

I'd be interested in seeing if this trend carried onto July and part of August but Touring Plans has an article written at the end of this June titled: "Summer Isn't Peak Season at Disney World Anymore" The only reason I even mention this is because a lot of people value at least some parts of Touring Plans. With the article they talk about last July and this June and then some possible reasons as to why. I didn't know if I could link the story itself but it's easy to google. Again I'd be interested in seeing if they noticed this tread this July and August as well.

I do know the DIS Unplugged WDW Edition from Tuesday also talked about lower crowds (ETA: This isn't the first time though that they have talked about lower crowds) . I thought their discussion was good and balanced too-being able to express frustration at X and Y but also talk about Z too. They talked about discounts that are not normally offered, construction concerns, park hours, etc. Now I don't know exactly 100% why on the magical (pun intended) reason for park closing time being earlier for MK (crowds, profits, etc) but I do find it interesting how focused the talk has been for the last year and this year regarding crowd levels shifting here and there.

The beginning of the discussion starts at 18mins 30seconds where the extra % discount on certain restaurants at resorts for DVC and AP holders through September launches the broader discussion. A bit of talk about earlier park hrs starts at 33mins 20-ish seconds. I do think watching at least from the 18mins 30 seconds mark and on gives a more complete story into the bigger picture that the Podcast crew is talking about though. That main discussion ends at just after 36mins. The rest of the Podcast talks about reactions from a poll on the D23 news.

*This all being said this isn't me giving my stance on the subject matter, this is me just passing along some information.*

Do you mean this article by Disney Tourist Blog? I think they were talking about June. http://www.disneytouristblog.com/summer-not-peak-season-disney-world-crowd-trends/

These aren't the Touring Plans folks, are they?

I know that when I looked at TP's "actual" crowd ratings for 15 days in July, they're UP from 2016 to 2017.

I have no idea what methodology DTB is using to back up their article.

 

[whiporee]

I do think there's an important point in this, and it's something that has changed. Don't book a vacation with the expectation (or even the hope) that hours will be extended beyond what they are published at the time of your booking. WDW has always adjusted hours in the past, but I think it's a fair statement to say it's not happening nearly as much as it used to. So if you're planning your vacation based on historical data, don't. For whatever reasons, WDW apparently has become much more attached to it's originally published schedules, and expecting them to change in the future because they've changed in the past is a recipe for disappointment.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Do you mean this article by Disney Tourist Blog? I think they were talking about June. http://www.disneytouristblog.com/summer-not-peak-season-disney-world-crowd-trends/

These aren't the Touring Plans folks, are they?

I know that when I looked at TP's "actual" crowd ratings for 15 days in July, they're UP from 2016 to 2017.

I have no idea what methodology DTB is using to back in their article.

Ugh yes you are right it wasn't TP it was Disney Tourist Blog...see I started looking at that before I had my morning . . I'll go edit my post.

Anywho the article does have some good information but I do feel like if anyone wants to hear some good opinions the DIS Unplugged Podcast has some good thoughts and is worth watching no matter which "side" of this argument over park hrs you are on.

 

[SCSteve]

If they have the right to complain that it's problematic, I have the right to disagree. Because I really don't see why this is amazing or disappointing or even problematic. I'm not shutting them down, I'm pointing out that the change isn't that unreasonable. It's a discussion thread, not a planning thread, and everyone can say whatever they want.

I'm one of the people who would happily be in the park all night. Actually, I would happily do all of my daytime stuff at night. Disney has apparently discovered that they can save money by closing down "early". I don't think it affects the majority of guests.

Today for Disney parks and Resorts, its more about the money, these days I feel, the customer experience is lower on the list, still considered but not as important as the money... Is Disneyparks being short sighted? Some say yes, but they can be, they are the champ, they can do the "rope a dope".

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Ugh yes you are right it wasn't TP it was Disney Tourist Blog...see I started looking at that before I had my morning .

Boy, can I indentify with that!!!!!

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Anywho the article does have some good information but I do feel like if anyone wants to hear some good opinions the DIS Unplugged Podcast has some good thoughts and is worth watching no matter which "side" of this argument over park hrs you are on.

Re: the podcast… just my thoughts... it was a lot of conjecture based on little data... (which is fine!! -- I just don't find it persuasive, personally)

• Pretty limited dining discount (1. outside of peak dinner times -- before 6:30 and after 8:30 but DINNER ONLY, 2. through Sept., 3. just for DVC & AP, 4. only for 10 higher-end RESORT restaurants): They attribute this to crowds must be down. What about if BECAUSE OF SHORTER HOURS, people are booking less TS to maximize park time -- eating QS in the park rather than going all the way to a hotel? Just an alternative hypothesis.
• They cite “reports from people” that crowds are lighter. There are PLENTY of reports on DIS of exactly the opposite. Sounds like maybe a wash?

Again, TP actual crowd estimates are not perfect, but they are the closest to actual data that we have — they use peak waits at specific attractions, and you can compare year over year.

I’m just more of a fan of data than anecdotal reports. That’s more reliable on the whole. And again, plenty of reports here suggest crowds UP, consistent with those 15 days in July that I examined on TP.

And I think the key issue is: even if crowds were down "some" from summer 2016 to summer 2017, are they down ENOUGH to justify 2.5hrs less in MK per day over my 11-day trip? PLUS that drop in total park AK hours? PLUS a bit of a cut at DHS? I know that YOU are not saying they are!! Just putting the question out there!

ETA: Still interesting to hear the podcast -- thanks for sharing it!!

 

[CrabbyPatty]

Just wrote to Disney to complain about the August hours and quickly got back the standard reply others have posted here. I'll post when I receive a real response.

Quick question - so with the nightmare of actually getting OUT of MK in the evening, how late do the buses run back to the resorts? I'm trying to figure out if we could go to one of the hotels nearby (Contemporary, Poly, WL, GF) and have a late meal at the QS there or a drink or two before trying to get back to the resort. Thanks!

 

[McKelly]

We just got back from WDW. The MK 10pm closing times were a bummer not only because of the crowds and the heat, but because of the rain. Several days the storms lasted for hours, closing many attractions at MK. So, that limited what you could get done even more. We usually go at Xmas, and the storms and rain do not hold you up as much.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Re: the podcast… just my thoughts... it was a lot of conjecture based on little data... (which is fine!! -- I just don't find it persuasive, personally)

Totally wasn't trying to peruade anyone but I do think they have a voice that should be heard. What I thought was interesting is the Podcasters weren't on Disney's side really they weren't apologists (ugh I really don't like that term here on the DIS)--they were upset just as much as many people are on the construction, on not wanting to add more and more festivals that impact the average guest, the park hours and how it makes planning difficult, are people waiting until 2019 or so to come was a question too, etc

I think their main point was it's not just one thing or another it's a combination. But one thing I did take away especially from Pete, who has mentioned this many times already, is Disney's strategy seems to be price higher. Now people think peak pricing should equal peak experience so to speak (longer hrs, etc) and I would think that in the past. But I think if we adjust our thoughts to at least include that Disney may (again may) not be keeping Peak pricing to justify previous thoughts of longer hrs, parades, etc things to add so to speak to one's experience but instead to keep Peak pricing for other reasons.

I can see right now weekends in October are considered Peak season and weekends in September are considered Regular. The last half of August however is considered Value season with the first half being Regular. I don't think people considered October Peak season years ago. And currently I'm seeing 9pm closings for MK for October (at least the weekends I checked where Peak pricing is being charged). Of course hours could change. You know I think I would be more mad if I bought an MK ticket on one of the MNSSHP where the park closes at 7pm in October and yet I was being charged Peak Pricing. Sunset on October 15th is 6:55pm so you're not even getting any benefit from the sun going down. It costs you at MK for a 1-day ticket $124 pre-tax or $132.06 post tax (Peak pricing) and you're getting 9am-7pm... (you may however get Morning EMH from 8am-9am if Disney adds that). Though yes I'm sure the overall average temperature difference will make for a more comfortable (on average) trip than in the summer but still..and you've got Hurricane Season to contend with.

Numbers speak of course, which is part of the reason I asked about month by month attendance, but for me at least the larger picture I took away is the Summer crowds haven't been at the level that they were in years past. Last year and this year seem to show that there is less overall attendance than in year's past. Even a growth in numbers from last year to this year wouldn't carry the same weight if the crowds were still lower than in the year's past..which I believe is the bigger point being talked about in the Podcast.

ETA: Still interesting to hear the podcast -- thanks for sharing it!!

No problem!

 

[Jules76126]

I think this discussion is very interesting. I too remember the days of being in MK till after Midnight and how empty the parks were. I have photos of being right in front of the castle with no one else around. And if you are a night owl, those hours are so much fun.

However, when I did my CP program, EMH hours used to be three hours. We were never busy after 10:00pm. As CPs we loved it as we got to basically hang out and get paid and goofy off to a certain extent. I can understand why Epcot is not open super late and they reduced EMH, probably same for DHS.

But MK is a different beast entirely. I have friends that work there still and they said the wait times are very long this summer so you would think a 11:00pm or midnight closing would be justified. I an only imagine the nightmare after HEA getting out. I would rather meander out an hour later and not deal with those horrible crowds.

 

[McKelly]

Wasn't last night the first of three days in a row with MK hours until 11:00? Any reports on how exiting the park went?

I don't know exactly because we stayed past 11pm, but right after the fireworks, they did open up that second exit to walk backstage down Main Street. They wouldn't even let you go out into Tomorrowland from near the castle. You had to go with the flow until right at the entrance of the Tomorrowland Terrace where you were allowed to turn left and go back into the park through the Terrace. I noticed the Plaza was open until 11:40, so we stepped in there at 11 and got ice-cream and ate it outside. There were steady streams of people leaving for half an hour. We started noticing breaks in the crowds so we left at 11:30pm. The crowds weren't too bad then. In fact, we took a boat back to the Poly and it was half full. Although it was the last boat going back for the night. They do bring a bigger boat out after fireworks to do that MK-GF-Poly loop.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Totally wasn't trying to peruade anyone but I do think they have a voice that should be heard.

Oh, I didn't think at all that you were trying to persuade -- just sharing some other source/POV -- which I think is great!

Just saying that I didn't find their assumption persuasive that this one very limited discount is necessarily because crowds are down, basing that seemingly largely on anecdotal accounts. I had that alternative hypothesis, which is also more consistent with TP data.

I think their main point was it's not just one thing or another it's a combination. But one thing I did take away especially from Pete, who has mentioned this many times already, is Disney's strategy seems to be price higher. Now people think peak pricing should equal peak experience so to speak (longer hrs, etc) and I would think that in the past.

Yes -- totally agree on this!

I can see right now weekends in October are considered Peak season and weekends in September are considered Regular. The last half of August however is considered Value season with the first half being Regular. I don't think people considered October Peak season years ago.

Yes. I think on DIS we've all been talking about this shift for a long time, and I do think Disney is aiming for more spending per guest and some decrease in attendance. The equation works out just as well for them no matter how it balances.

Oct now is NOT Oct from 2005 when we started going regularly! And I think over time, summers have become less crowded. But doesn't seem much less -- if at all -- 2016 to 2017, yet the cut in hours is DRASTIC. That's the main issue I have here.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Just saying that I didn't find their assumption persuasive that this one very limited discount is necessarily because crowds are down, basing that seemingly largely on anecdotal accounts. I had that alternative hypothesis, which is also more consistent with TP data.

Well I wouldn't use just this one video...they've been talking about this for a while now in Podcasts. It's not at all related to just this one very limited discount. Pete has been talking about for a while now that the discounts being released (since last year I believe) have been out of normal for the time period (i.e. Discounts at time periods that didn't used to have discounts like summer and towards christmas I believe if I remember correctly and that at times the discounts that were existing have been amped up in certain respects). Maybe that's the issue..you're looking at this one video (or just a handful maybe) to explain their rationale and I'm looking at having watched the WDW podcasts basically every single one for the last 1 1/2 years (I also watch the Universal edition).

Yes -- totally agree on this!

Yup...but remember the rest of my comment though:
"But I think if we adjust our thoughts to at least include that Disney may (again may) not be keeping Peak pricing to justify previous thoughts of longer hrs, parades, etc things to add so to speak to one's experience but instead to keep Peak pricing for other reasons."

It's totally ok to be upset about this whole IDK what to call it other than transitional period that it feels like is going on until we get all these new things coming but be open to new rationales. What rationale worked for Peak pricing years ago...just understand that may not be the rationale now..at least be open to that as a possibility.

Oct now is NOT Oct from 2005 when we started going regularly! And I think over time, summers have become less crowded. But doesn't seem much less -- if at all -- 2016 to 2017, yet the cut in hours is DRASTIC. That's the main issue I have here.

And I get that part really on the hours.

But IDK like I said I think I would be way more upset to know I'm paying $132 and I've got to leave at 7pm. That is the one thing summer seems to have going for it...at least right now no hard ticket events (with the exception of MNSSHP starting in late August this year) to get in the way of planning. But I do think it is interesting that October weekends are considered Peak season just like parts of summer. I'm be interested to see what the hours end up being for MK in October but unfortunately we won't have the information til October ends..I want to know now lol.
_______________
Either way I think this time period 2016-2019 will be a weird period so to speak. I do think we should see an increase in crowds once Star Wars opens. That will probably (or at least is my thought) carry towards the 50th and then I think with all these things coming for the 50th (as long as they really will be open for the 50th) should boost attendance as well.

 

[MaryKatesMom]

https://touringplans.com/walt-disney-world/events/24-hour-celebration

"This event is extinct" made me chuckle. It wan't that long ago when the trend was for MORE hours in the parks.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Maybe that's the issue..you're looking at this one video (or just a handful maybe) to explain their rationale and I'm looking at having watched the WDW podcasts basically every single one for the last 1 1/2 years (I also watch the Universal edition).

Could well be -- I'm not into the podcasts. ETA: I should add that I am not into podcasts IN GENERAL -- nothing personal to these lovely folks!!

But IDK like I said I think I would be way more upset to know I'm paying $132 and I've got to leave at 7pm. That is the one thing summer seems to have going for it...at least right now no hard ticket events (with the exception of MNSSHP starting in late August this year) to get in the way of planning. But I do think it is interesting that October weekends are considered Peak season just like parts of summer. I'm be interested to see what the hours end up being for MK in October but unfortunately we won't have the information til October ends..I want to know now lol.

I'm not accustomed to the hours being all that long in Oct, and we've all known forever that these parties take place then. Then there is the hotter weather in Aug vs. Oct (generally!!) that you mentioned in your earlier post as well. Basing now on TP and my personal experiences, despite the increases in Oct crowds and decreases in summer crowds in recent years as compared to many years ago, Oct still does not equal Aug. The hours need to acknowledge that. Or, apparently they don't.

Either way I think this time period 2016-2019 will be a weird period so to speak. I do think we should see an increase in crowds once Star Wars opens. That will probably (or at least is my thought) carry towards the 50th and then I think with all these things coming for the 50th (as long as they really will be open for the 50th) should boost attendance as well.

I like the phrasing of this period being perhaps a transition period as Disney has shifted strategies for it's $RATE x ATTENDANCE equation -- and maybe we are some unlucky victims blindsided by the first time they have not increase Aug hours more. And I think that WILL get thrown out of whack with Star Wars and everything coming online for the 50th -- though at least these added attractions increase capacity some, in a much needed way. Who knows what the new normal will be post 2019 / 2021??

All I know for sure is that when we get to the point where we can't get done what we want to on our trips, we'll shift vacation time elsewhere. That hasn't come to pass so far -- and I'm waiting to see what next month brings.

And I say this as DVC since 2006 (with a TON of points!), and APs since 2007, with maybe 20 or so trips under our belt including a bunch for rD events. We're as "bought in" as people get, but THIS -- lack of enough park time -- is where we begin to draw that line and shift time away... sell DVC points... etc. if the hours cuts really impact our trips. Just us.