Am I the only one?

[Joanne Albanese]

Wasn't sure where to post this or if this will get me banned from this site for life...but I have to speak out. I have been a DVC member since 1992 and I have seen many changes; mostly instituted by Disney themselves and so I had to go with the flow or find an alternative vacation spot(Never!) That being said I can't keep quiet any longer...Am I the only one who feels that some DVC owners/members have turned their ownership's into a small business venture?Am I wrong in assuming that you no longer NEED to be a member to stay at DVC resorts on a point basis????? No wonder I have such a difficult time getting reservations at my home resort...someone (who didn't have to wait, excited or anxiously to be approved to participate in the "club" and then take out a small mortgage to join or who continues to pay increasing monthly maintenance fees to keep up with the wear and tear from non members who don't care to treat this as a home away from home) always seems to beat me to the ressie. What's so special about being a member anymore? I could have saved myself and my family thousands of dollars by just contacting someone (on this site!) anytime I wanted to go on vacation. It's shameful and it makes me very sad

 

[Sandisw]

While it can be frustrating when you can't get the reservation you are hoping for, the person reserving that room is a DVC member, who is paying dues and had a buy in cost as well. Granted, some turn around and allow someone else to stay in the room, renters or family/friends and profit for lots of reasons.

Personally, I am not bothered by the renting because it really has no impact on me. The fact that the actual person staying may not be the member doesn't negate the fact that it was another member that used their points to reserve and has every right to that room as I do.

I like the flexibility of DVC that allows me to let guests use my points. I am not interested in renting but have used my points for family and would not want to see changes made that would make that aspect harder.

I do think that as the club grows and more and more members come on board, the harder it is to reserve rooms.

 

[Dean]

Wasn't sure where to post this or if this will get me banned from this site for life...but I have to speak out. I have been a DVC member since 1992 and I have seen many changes; mostly instituted by Disney themselves and so I had to go with the flow or find an alternative vacation spot(Never!) That being said I can't keep quiet any longer...Am I the only one who feels that some DVC owners/members have turned their ownership's into a small business venture?Am I wrong in assuming that you no longer NEED to be a member to stay at DVC resorts on a point basis????? No wonder I have such a difficult time getting reservations at my home resort...someone (who didn't have to wait, excited or anxiously to be approved to participate in the "club" and then take out a small mortgage to join or who continues to pay increasing monthly maintenance fees to keep up with the wear and tear from non members who don't care to treat this as a home away from home) always seems to beat me to the ressie. What's so special about being a member anymore? I could have saved myself and my family thousands of dollars by just contacting someone (on this site!) anytime I wanted to go on vacation. It's shameful and it makes me very sad

Everyone who beats you to a reservation has rights to the units also. Maybe it's an owner who reserves to use, for a guest or to rent or maybe it's DVC who owns or an RCI member stepping in to a reservation where a DVC member exchanged out, or DVD giving to CRO (what they own, because owners exchanged to DCL or similar or for breakage inventory). Personally I have no tolerance for the attitude that this is an exclusive club and someone feels they should be treated special. To me, a renter staying on an owners points is the same as the owner using it themselves. ALL we own and paid for no matter when, how long or how much; is simply the right to attempt to make a reservation within the applicable rules. This is not an exclusive club nor should it be.

 

[DizBub]

While it can be frustrating when you can't get the reservation you are hoping for, the person reserving that room is a DVC member, who is paying dues and had a buy in cost as well. Granted, some turn around and allow someone else to stay in the room, renters or family/friends and profit for lots of reasons.

OP, I totally feel your frustration on this issue but have to agree with the above statement. Where do you draw the line? I have never rented my points but appreciate the fact that I could if I needed to. I know that some people are running a business for profit but think most of them buy enough points to rent to cover their dues.

I have 2 home resorts, BLT and BCV. I feel that I must reserve at 11 months to get either of them. We don't plan all our trips that far out so we seem to end up at OKW and SSR often. I suspect that your home resort is OKW so I hope you don't resent that other people are staying there on other resorts' points. I admit I get a little ticked when I read on the boards that someone got a rented reservation at one of my home resorts at a primo time when I had no chance. Then I remember how the system works. It's on me to reserve at 11 months.

That said, I just rented a AKV value studio for the 1st week of Dec. No way would I have a shot at that at 7 months. Works both ways.

 

[MsTessP]

I also think it is presumptuous to assume that greater wear and tear comes from renters and/or non-owners.

 

[disbound09]

ALL we own and paid for no matter when, how long or how much; is simply the right to attempt to make a reservation within the applicable rules. This is not an exclusive club nor should it be.

I agree. I know Disney is going to develop the property and add more and more DVC owners to the mix in the future. I have no idea what it was like early on but I can only think it was easier to get your ressie. I am not opposed to renting as an individual but not sure about running a business. But if its permitted then you can't blame someone. I rented from an individual before we bought to kinda make sure it was all we wanted. Now we own.

 

[Lynne M]

Wasn't sure where to post this or if this will get me banned from this site for life...but I have to speak out. I have been a DVC member since 1992 and I have seen many changes; mostly instituted by Disney themselves and so I had to go with the flow or find an alternative vacation spot(Never!) That being said I can't keep quiet any longer...Am I the only one who feels that some DVC owners/members have turned their ownership's into a small business venture?Am I wrong in assuming that you no longer NEED to be a member to stay at DVC resorts on a point basis????? No wonder I have such a difficult time getting reservations at my home resort...someone (who didn't have to wait, excited or anxiously to be approved to participate in the "club" and then take out a small mortgage to join or who continues to pay increasing monthly maintenance fees to keep up with the wear and tear from non members who don't care to treat this as a home away from home) always seems to beat me to the ressie. What's so special about being a member anymore? I could have saved myself and my family thousands of dollars by just contacting someone (on this site!) anytime I wanted to go on vacation. It's shameful and it makes me very sad

I understand the frustration when you can't get a reservation that you want, and that it feels better if you can find a 'bad guy' to blame. But non-members have always been able to stay at resorts, and members have always been able to make reservations for others, whether it's family members, friends, or strangers that are paying them. There's nothing new going on. DVC has never been exclusive.

I don't know that my poking holes in your argument would necessarily make you feel better, but maybe by removing the 'villain', it would help?

How do you know that it must be a member renting out their points that's beating you to that reservation you want? Why couldn't it just be another member trying to take their family on vacation at the same time you are? DVC membership has grown immensely since you joined. There are simply a lot more members competing for those reservations, and making the reservation right at the start of your booking window has become increasingly important.

I've never quite understood the argument that renters are somehow taking the 'good' reservations away from members. Whether I'm booking the reservation for myself, for my friend, for my aunt, or for a stranger who's paying me, doesn't really matter. I'm still using a villa, and I don't have any advantage over any other member in getting that 'good' reservation.

 

[DougEMG]

Everyone who beats you to a reservation has rights to the units also. Maybe it's an owner who reserves to use, for a guest or to rent or maybe it's DVC who owns or an RCI member stepping in to a reservation where a DVC member exchanged out, or DVD giving to CRO (what they own, because owners exchanged to DCL or similar or for breakage inventory). Personally I have no tolerance for the attitude that this is an exclusive club and someone feels they should be treated special. To me, a renter staying on an owners points is the same as the owner using it themselves. ALL we own and paid for no matter when, how long or how much; is simply the right to attempt to make a reservation within the applicable rules. This is not an exclusive club nor should it be.

It's just a prepaid room, nothing more.

 

[maburke]

Talk about !! More than half the OP's post history has been bottom-feeding off the rent/trade board!

 

[jekjones1558]

Talk about !! More than half the OP's post history has been bottom-feeding off the rent/trade board!

Very interesting to read OPs prior posts and compare with the complaints in this post.

 

[Meggysmum]

I have always assumed that the majority of people staying in the allocated DVC units are DVC members.

I have used my points to send family members when I couldn't use them and that is one of the beauties of DVC to me, I could give the gift easily and enjoyed being able to. If I was struggling financially I like the fact that I know I could rent my points out if I needed to. I have never had to but the financial security that gives me allows a bit of peace of mind if I was having a tough year and is one of DVCs many appealing aspects.

I agree that there do seem to be a tiny proportion who use their points as a business but Disney allow it and the points would be being used by someone, either owner or renter so I can't see the difference. I think it is wrong to assume that renters treat the property with less respect.

I usually book at 11months and have always managed to get what I want. When i book later I just take what is on offer and it means that I get to experience other aspects of my trip.

TBH the most annoying thing to me about DVC was all the people saying at OKW and SSR with free dining in the none-inventory rooms at a bargain price with the UK package holiday deals. In the end I booked a free DDP trip as the price was such a bargain and banked my points for that year to let me stay at BLT again next time!

 

[Dean]

We've seen this type of thread come around before. It basically boils down to those with this sense simply not understanding their membership. Everyone either knew or should have known what they were getting into. You signed off that you did when you bought even in 1992. Of course then there was only one resort and I can't believe you have trouble reserving OKW in the home resort window unless maybe you're looking for a 3BR. You don't own any other resort unless you've also bought there but outside of a very few options (CL AKV, 2Q 2BR at BCV, etc) there are few situations you can't get what you want day 1 11 months out, esp if you also WL.

I also think it is presumptuous to assume that greater wear and tear comes from renters and/or non-owners.

Not only that, there's no evidence to back it up. Some people will say members take better care than non members because they own, I say hogwash. We don't OWN anything, every single member is essentially using DVC like a rental car. IMO it basically boils down to those who take care of things will and those who don't won't no matter their status. This subject has come up over the years and I've discussed it with several Marriott resort GM's including one I know fairly well and independent of his position. None indicated they felt it mattered how the group arrived at having the villa but rather the makeup of the group. Basically the only group they felt they could single out was the spring break type.

I agree. I know Disney is going to develop the property and add more and more DVC owners to the mix in the future. I have no idea what it was like early on but I can only think it was easier to get your ressie. I am not opposed to renting as an individual but not sure about running a business. But if its permitted then you can't blame someone. I rented from an individual before we bought to kinda make sure it was all we wanted. Now we own.

DVD created an interesting dilemma by specifically stating that renting was allowed then prohibiting "commercial renting" to be named later. Those facts take away any and all arguments opposing renting except for the extremes. Basically like David's or the TSS or similar. One would have to own 4-5K points minimum to be able to rent enough consistently to trigger this issue. While I understand that the ones I name above are brokering for others and not renting themselves, I don't see it as making any difference or if anything, I see that as more negative than someone going out and investing in the points then renting.

 

[MickeyFan612]

Very interesting thread! Personally I try to teach my children to treat property that isn't ours w/ extra care. Some don't respect their personal property much less borrowed property but please don't put blame on renters. I've made reservations for many great individuals who are now seeking to become DVC members! That is great for DVD/WDW- helps keep rooms full and ultimately the parks full! Having a vested interest in DVC I want to see it successful as I'm sure all members do!

As for you not getting your desired reservation, it is commonly known that DVC really only works for those who are able to book advanced vacations. If you are no longer able to book at 7-11 months out than maybe that is your real issue w/ DVC! Another consideration is that back when you joined there were less Disney offsite properties and now that those owners are booking WDW resorts, competition has risen! Upside we get more options- I can't wait for my trip to Aulani.

 

[Tigger1]

I also do not like that others rent out to whoever. Sounds to risky to me. But that is more put on the owner I would assume. If the renter was to do a lot of damage and the owner did not pay for it, Disney could not allow any reservations for that member until it was paid. I have not yet heard any complaints like this on the Disboards.

As far as Reservations, renter or member, someone is going to use the points. I do not see where the difference is unless most renters go to disney at certain times of the year. Then that could be a problem.

 

[RobDoc]

I also do not like that others rent out to whoever. Sounds to risky to me. But that is more put on the owner I would assume. If the renter was to do a lot of damage and the owner did not pay for it, Disney could not allow any reservations for that member until it was paid. I have not yet heard any complaints like this on the Disboards.

As far as Reservations, renter or member, someone is going to use the points. I do not see where the difference is unless most renters go to disney at certain times of the year. Then that could be a problem.

There can be no rental unless an owner (in some form) has given up points for the reservation to be made.

As Dean outlined early on in this thread, cash reservations at DVC Resorts come from points owned by DVD itself, points used by DVC members for World Passport Reservations, points used by DVC members for Disney Collection (DCL, non-DVC resorts at WDW) reservations, points used by DVC members for Concierge Collection and Adventurer Collection reservations, and from points UNused by DVC members 60 days before every arrival date (Breakage inventory). The latter even returns income as a credit for DVC member fees each year (and appears as a line-item amount in the accounting report for each DVC Resort).

DVC resorts experience a very high occupancy rate , as is the design of the Timeshare product. Wear-and-tear is an expected/anticipated issue and is built into our annual fees. As Dean also noted, there is no evidence whatsoever that excessive wear-and-tear comes from renters.

As for the effect of DVC Members who rent directly to others (or offer free stays to family members), I suspect that this form of reservtion is near the bottom of the actual utilization for each DVC resort.

I believe that from high to low, reservations at DVC resorts come from:
1) Members using their points for personal stays (this is by FAR the greatest source for reservations at DVC Resorts)

2) DRC cash reservations from DVC points used by Members for non-DVC options.

3) DRC cash reservations from DVC points made available by DVD.
4) DRC cash reservations from DVC inventory remaning 60 days out (Breakage inventory)
5) Members renting to other individuals.

 

[a742246]

This doesn't effect me since I don't travel during Christmas or other high travel dates. But if I did, I would have concerns about speculation booking to sell online, or renters specifically wanting those peak dates. For those that have school age children or those who only get those weeks off and are members I would have concerns. Why should renters who rent though professional renters have (in all likehood) better odds of getting those peak weeks then a (casual)member who knows nothing about the extra competition.

For those like me, who never travel those peak dates I wouldn't care either.
But I can understand the concerns what the OP is saying.

 

[Lynne M]

This doesn't effect me since I don't travel during Christmas or other high travel dates. But if I did, I would have concerns about speculation booking to sell online, or renters specifically wanting those peak dates. For those that have school age children or those who only get those weeks off and are members I would have concerns. Why should renters who rent though professional renters have (in all likehood) better odds of getting those peak weeks then a (casual)member who knows nothing about the extra competition.

For those like me, who never travel those peak dates I wouldn't care either.
But I can understand the concerns what the OP is saying.

But the member making a Christmas reservation to sell it has absolutely NO advantage over the member making the reservation for their own use. That member is taking nothing away from other members that they can't get themselves.

If you're on the phone with MS as soon as they open on the first morning of your booking window, you're likely going to get what you want. And if members are losing out because they don't know that you have to book as early as possible for peak times.....well, that's not the fault of members selling spec reservations.

The peak weeks are peak because they're immensely popular times for members to vacation. Even if DVC suddenly disallowed renting, the competition would still be there.

 

[Chuck S]

Since the OP bought into DVC in 1992, then their home resort must be OKW, like me.

I have never had a problem getting into OKW during the 11 month booking priority window, except during the Christmas/NYE booking timeframe. And back in 1992, there were never any guarantees of that, even booking right at the 11 month window. In the "old days" there was a lottery system for the Holiday reservations. Owners at all DVC resorts put their name into the lottery, and some were selected to book at OKW. There was no home resort priority for the lottery. So really, even though the lottery was discontinued, it has always been difficult to book your home resort for that holiday timeframe. That hasn't really changed, except now we are only competing against other OKW owners and not every single DVC owner, regardless of home resort, that wants that special holiday reservation.

DVCers have always had the ability to rent out reservations, to book the rooms for friends/family or donate a DVC stay to charity. DVC has always been first come, first served for reservations and early planning has always been the best strategy to secure your desired room reservation.

Renting has no impact on overall resort availability, and since the OP specifically mentions the DIS Rent/Trade board, I'd remind the OP that the DIS does do it's part to preserve room availability for members. We do not allow pre-book, speculative reservations to be offered on the DIS unless 1) it is 30 days or less from check-in -or- 2) you have purchased the more expensive ($200) Premium level Rent/Trade board membership. And while there have been a few Premium memberships posting, the vast majority of posts are either point offers competing in real time with for dates just like anyone else, or those people having to rent their reservation at 30 days or less rather than see their points go into holding statue. And even those owners have to meet posting requirements or purchase a Gold Level plan.

I really don't think the DIS Rental board has any large impact on resort availability.

It is an owners lack of pre-planning that is the biggest culprit in trying to secure a reservation, and that has been the case since the first DVC, OKW opened in October 1991.

 

[Dean]

This doesn't effect me since I don't travel during Christmas or other high travel dates. But if I did, I would have concerns about speculation booking to sell online, or renters specifically wanting those peak dates. For those that have school age children or those who only get those weeks off and are members I would have concerns. Why should renters who rent though professional renters have (in all likehood) better odds of getting those peak weeks then a (casual)member who knows nothing about the extra competition.

For those like me, who never travel those peak dates I wouldn't care either.
But I can understand the concerns what the OP is saying.

I think your post brings up an important point. I think many view DVC as belonging to a club and they happen to own at a specific resort(s) while technically and realistically we own a specific resort(s) and have an internal exchange option to other resorts. One who takes the former view is going to feel they should be ahead of renters in general, those who take the latter (and more accurate) view are going to feel that an owner at a given resort who rents out the time should come FAR ahead of someone who owns at a different DVC resort and wants to exchange in.

As far as those who don't realize they have to compete, shame on them for not understanding the nature of what they own. The other issue along those lines that some bring up at times is that they can plan ahead for some reason. My view is that personal situations have absolutely NO bearing on the issue.

I see people throwing around the terms professional and commercial. My guess is that most people who do so really would prefer to ban renting in general and that their definition is anyone who makes a profit on a given rental or anyone who books a time they want. DVC's current definition centers around 20 reservations a year just to start looking at the issue. The reality is that the vast majority of rentals are done by those who rent a week or 2 per year or less, usually less on average.

 

[jekjones1558]

Most of the OP's prior posts are on the rent/trade board. It appears that in years past she was able to rent points, rent confirmed reservations or transfer points into her account for bargain prices. The bargains are few and far between these days and getting points at even $11 isn't that easy. The great deal that renters get on DVC accommodations is becoming more widely known, IMHO. I suspect that it is frustrating to the OP to be competing in a tougher market than has been the case in the past.