Alligator Incident Discussion/Fence being built at Grand Floridian?

[Lynne M]

People are very bad at processing high stakes / low probability events like this.

This is very true. Far, far more guests have died in traffic accidents on Disney property than have been killed by alligators in the last 45 years. Yet no one says "I'll never go back to Disney because I read in the news that someone died in a car accident there. Disney has to get rid of all the cars before I'd ever feel safe there again." It's just the fact that it's a large, scary, toothy reptile that makes the danger seem greater, when in fact it's far less.

 

[kreckl]

I read through 12 pages of this thread and honestly...that's enough. How on earth can people blame these parents? Our personal experience: when our son was 5 we stayed at the Poly, first trip. I asked a CM why there was no swimming in the lagoon. I was told because there were no lifeguards. Our kid played in the sand along with dozens of others. Some splashed in the water, parents right there. NEVER did I think alligators. We watched people boat and ski in the water. We were told it was a man-made lagoon, and ( wrongly ) thought it was self-contained. I would not ever allow my child near the water if I thought there was danger, and I assume the same of these poor parents who lost their baby. Dad was right there, watching his son. If there were signs saying no wading, or alligators!, or something- parents would know to STAY AWAY from the water. That was not encouraged or even suggested.
Our last trip ( our 8th) was the first time we ever saw a small gator- in the water at CSR. It was 3 feet long.

 

[Jennasis]

People have died on rides, in car accidents, in swimming pools on Disney property. People have been injured on rides, bitten by snakes, fallen and broken bones, lost fingers...
The gator attack was a FREAK accident. The nature of this freak accident is particularly gruesome and has elicited an understandably visceral response. The likelihood of this happening again is not going to be lessened by these new measures, but it will make those who are freaking out feel better. I'm fine with the changes, ultimately. Just sad for the circumstances that caused them.

On the other hand, I am more interested in changes as a result of the nightclub massacre. That's security people should be concerned about...the gators are not a problem.

 

[freshmanjs]

Right, but we cannot all go around deciding which rules we think are "stupid" and breaking them. What if they told you you'd get thrown out of the store for having that bottle of water with you? Would you have argued with them that their rule is "stupid"?

Our society's general attitude about breaking rules and laws they don't think apply to them is getting out of hand. To the point that various authorities are almost afraid to ENFORCE the rules and laws for fear that the person breaking it will accuse the authority figure of harassment, discrimination, or whatever else. Rules are made for a reason. No food and drink is most likely because of the risk of spills and messes, surely. If you were drinking your water and someone bumped you and you dropped it and it spilled everywhere, even on another customer or on a piece of merchandise that was ruined or whatever, you'd be at fault for not following the rule. Not the person who bumped you, not the store for failing to be more explicit with their sign, but you. Because you chose to interpret that sign how you wanted and ignore what you thought was a "stupid" rule.

Meh -- our country has a long and revered history of disobedience. It's an important part of who we are. Our greatest national heroes are all so because they disobeyed rules. Your argument about how we should all be blind rule followers doesn't appeal to me at all. If you want people to take a risk seriously, use a sign that specifies what the risks are.

 

[GPC0321]

Meh -- our country has a long and revered history of disobedience. It's an important part of who we are. Our greatest national heroes are all so because they disobeyed rules. Your argument about how we should all be blind rule followers doesn't appeal to me at all. If you want people to take a risk seriously, use a sign that specifies what the risks are.

If the rule or law isn't causing you harm, then why break it? I'm not saying there haven't been unjust laws throughout history, of course there have. There are now! But breaking rules and laws is not the way to change that. Challenge them, protest them, whatever. But if you break a law or a rule, you should accept the consequence. Which, in this case, is why the signs have changed and fences have been erected. Because now there is a rule that you cannot enter the water. If someone chooses to ignore that rule because they think it's "stupid", then they will have to deal with the consequences of breaking that rule.
And those who break the LAW that forbids feeding wildlife should have some sort of consequence for that as well.

 

[momofkids]

Wow that's creepy stalking someone else's posts. Anyway I just read an article that shares my viewpoint of what I was trying to say all along. To me it's not about the money amount. I just want to see permanent changes due to disneys negligence and it will happen thank goodness. Safety first. You can't boast to come play on the "beach" even in the evening, which is even stated on disneys website, when there are alligators lurking near there with no visual barrier against the water. Sure kids can climb over stuff but seeing that barrier is less of an easy access. Much less of an easy access of zero entry which is what they have now. That in combination with proper, non-vague signage will greatly lessen another tragedy like this one. Again, greatly lessen. Not 100% foolproof but will greatly lessen. I'm always up for lessening a chance of tragedy within reason. And I think this is easily doable. Certainly better than the vague "no swimming" signs that depict a stick figure doing the breaststroke.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...iability-prior-knowledge-questioned/86036062/

It wasn't stalking. It stuck out in my mind because I though it strange someone would be so concerned about safety yet let young children wander the parks and resorts alone. I would have quoted it for you but there is no way I would hunt through all his posts for the last few days. I have been following the gator threads since they started.

 

[Viteh]

I am surprised that I've seen some people blame the parents by saying they should have known gators were a probability, but at the same time think it's so rare nothing should be done about it.

Can't have it both ways. If it's really that rare of an accident nobody should blame the parents.

 

[Splashboat]

I read through 12 pages of this thread and honestly...that's enough. How on earth can people blame these parents? Our personal experience: when our son was 5 we stayed at the Poly, first trip. I asked a CM why there was no swimming in the lagoon. I was told because there were no lifeguards. Our kid played in the sand along with dozens of others. Some splashed in the water, parents right there. NEVER did I think alligators. We watched people boat and ski in the water. We were told it was a man-made lagoon, and ( wrongly ) thought it was self-contained. I would not ever allow my child near the water if I thought there was danger, and I assume the same of these poor parents who lost their baby. Dad was right there, watching his son. If there were signs saying no wading, or alligators!, or something- parents would know to STAY AWAY from the water. That was not encouraged or even suggested.
Our last trip ( our 8th) was the first time we ever saw a small gator- in the water at CSR. It was 3 feet long.

I can't help but keep thinking the obvious thing that is not being said; many of us are not pro-Disney or pro-Parent, we are Pro-child. A child who is not capable of making decisions for him/herself. "No lifeguards" is enough information to make it clear - stay out of the water. To suggest a CM should have voluntarily read you every possible reason why you shouldn't be in the water is a bit extreme to expect. If you read the thread you will have read plenty of reasons why a child should not have stepped a toe in that water at 9:00 at night for reasons other than alligators. You can delete the word alligator and insert a variety of other words that could have had the same outcome.

I do feel very bad for those parents who have to live with this the rest of their lives but we all need to take some responsiblity for our actions. This was a poor decision for many reasons. This is not all Disney's fault.

 

[Jason2015]

I guess I'm one of those seldom posters who only gets on here when something is bothering me. I think some of you must spend all your time on here putting other people's opinions down. Sad. All I want from Disney is common sense. That little three rope fence may deter people from wading, but I can't believe it would stop an alligator from coming onto the beach. Seriously, are we all going to let this happen again?? What about the canals in the campground? I camped there years ago and didn't think about gators in canals or while watching the Electrical Light Parade. There were plenty of kids playing on the beach every night. Just because an alligator hasn't come up onto the beach doesn't mean it won't happen. Should we wait until it does happen? Yes, I am full of fear. I've been on those very same beaches for 23 years. We even had our two year old granddaughter on the Poly beach Monday night. She didn't go in the water, but she was in the sand. Disney has to find a way to make it safer or I'm not going back. Period.

Ma'am do you know anything about gators and how they feed? They don't stealthfully crawl up a beach and pick out the nearest thing to eat and then quietly slink back to the water. Your granddaughter sitting on the beach a few feet from the water is going to be safe. It was the fact that the boy was out in the water-splashing around-that created the danger. It's not like the gator was sitting just off the beach hoping that a little one would run down to the edge of the water so it could snatch the poor child. The gator was drawn by the splashing of what it thought was a struggling animal. The gator instinctually went after what it sensed was prey.

Disney is no more and no less safe today than it was a week, a month, a year ago. It's just that your idea that nothing bad could happen was challenged, along with the fact you were nearby. It is hard to admit we aren't ready for our preconceived notions to be broken. Yet, this accident is one of the least likely way that you can meet harm at Disney.

 

[jodifla]

I guess I'm one of those seldom posters who only gets on here when something is bothering me. I think some of you must spend all your time on here putting other people's opinions down. Sad. All I want from Disney is common sense. That little three rope fence may deter people from wading, but I can't believe it would stop an alligator from coming onto the beach. Seriously, are we all going to let this happen again?? What about the canals in the campground? I camped there years ago and didn't think about gators in canals or while watching the Electrical Light Parade. There were plenty of kids playing on the beach every night. Just because an alligator hasn't come up onto the beach doesn't mean it won't happen. Should we wait until it does happen? Yes, I am full of fear. I've been on those very same beaches for 23 years. We even had our two year old granddaughter on the Poly beach Monday night. She didn't go in the water, but she was in the sand. Disney has to find a way to make it safer or I'm not going back. Period.

What an unrealistic, over the top reaction. Disney cannot get get rid of all the gators, the snakes, or the canals. It's simply not possible.

 

[freshmanjs]

Ma'am do you know anything about gators and how they feed? They don't stealthfully crawl up a beach and pick out the nearest thing to eat and then quietly slink back to the water. Your granddaughter sitting on the beach a few feet from the water is going to be safe. It was the fact that the boy was out in the water-splashing around-that created the danger. It's not like the gator was sitting just off the beach hoping that a little one would run down to the edge of the water so it could snatch the poor child. The gator was drawn by the splashing of what it thought was a struggling animal. The gator instinctually went after what it sensed was prey.

Disney is no more and no less safe today than it was a week, a month, a year ago. It's just that your idea that nothing bad could happen was challenged, along with the fact you were nearby. It is hard to admit we aren't ready for our preconceived notions to be broken. Yet, this accident is one of the least likely way that you can meet harm at Disney.

And yet Kiawah, another vacation destination with a lot of alligators, has warning signs all over the place and tons of education for guests. Everyone staying there is aware and knows how to stay safe. That is how it should be.

 

[kreckl]

"No lifeguards" is enough information to make it clear - stay out of the water.
Nope. Not when we are watching people water ski in the water it isn't. And not when the "no wading" signs are an option and not chosen.

 

[Kevin355]

Your point is wrong because you ignore the facts. You can keep typing it over and over, doesn't mean you're right.

The 2 year old was at the edge of the beach where kids were building sandcastles and drifted a whopping 12" into maybe 3" of water. Sounds like he was in that spot for mere seconds, caused enough of a tiny splash to draw the attention of an alligator that was drawn to the spot minutes earlier by the smell of graham crackers and marshmallows in the evening air.

For all intents and purposes, the alligator sprung up from deep water, beached himself on that low shelf that Disney designed for aesthetics, grabbed the boy, pulled him under.

Disney is negligent on many levels. The primary one is inviting small children to a known alligator habitat at feeding time. No different than knowing of a cabin full of bees and inviting families to tea there.

You keep mentioning facts, but unless you were there and observed the situation, you are putting out conjecture and opinion...no facts. How do you know that he was in "3 inches of water?"

Have there been photos of where he was standing? You keep trying to "correct" us with opposing views, but you have offered up no evidence, just speculation.

Let's just agree that bad things happened that we are all upset about. The only way that it is preventable is to live in a perfect world...we don't. You can't eradicate all of the mountain lions who attack animals and little kids in the NW/mountainous USA, you can't kill all of the snakes in the SW/desert USA, and you cannot kill all of the gators in the SE. Animals have been around since the beginning of man. And alligators are some of the most adaptable creatures on this planet.

 

[Splashboat]

"No lifeguards" is enough information to make it clear - stay out of the water.
Nope. Not when we are watching people water ski in the water it isn't. And not when the "no wading" signs are an option and not chosen.

If you have ever participated in those water activities you would know there are age and weight restrictions, wear life jackets, it does not occur at 9:00 at night, you have to sign waivers and the people who drive the boats for the water skiing are not guests.

I think this thread is starting to chase its tail. Everyone who doesn't feel safe, is too angry or too sad at Disney should not go there anymore. I'm certainly not trying to talk anyone into going.

 

[ShirikiUtundu]

I can't help but keep thinking the obvious thing that is not being said; many of us are not pro-Disney or pro-Parent, we are Pro-child. A child who is not capable of making decisions for him/herself. "No lifeguards" is enough information to make it clear - stay out of the water. To suggest a CM should have voluntarily read you every possible reason why you shouldn't be in the water is a bit extreme to expect. If you read the thread you will have read plenty of reasons why a child should not have stepped a toe in that water at 9:00 at night for reasons other than alligators. You can delete the word alligator and insert a variety of other words that could have had the same outcome.

I do feel very bad for those parents who have to live with this the rest of their lives but we all need to take some responsiblity for our actions. This was a poor decision for many reasons. This is not all Disney's fault.

Not to mention that night and day, are like, well, night and day.
People who are arguing about the water activities that take place and posting pictures of children playing on the beach all seem to be missing the fact that the risk of alligators in the daytime is significantly reduced when compared to the night. I have not regularly seen children playing at the water's edge at night. The nighttime activities on the beach are placed well up from the water's edge.

Again, I am extremely hesitant to place blame on the parents here, because they are suffering enough and will blame themselves in part forever.

But, Disney is no more criminally negligent in this accident than the parents are. I believe Disney would win a criminal case, but probably not a civil one. I do not believe it will go either route.

 

[Luckybee]

What surprises me about this situation is in fact the lack of appropriate signage. A sign indicating "no swimming" is very different from "keep out of the water" or "danger" or any number of other things that should have been said. Like many others no swimming could be for a number of reasons including a lack of lifeguards (at our local lake in Ontario Canada where I grew up it was for just that reason...city liability) Had these parents been advised by signage that alligators were present in the water I suspect it is inconceivable that they (or the thousands of other parents) would have allowed their children to play in the shallows, gather water for sand castles, or even go near the water's edge. Fact is not everyone knew that this was the case. Disney did !
In retrospect I cant say whether we did or didn't . We know that there are alligators in some parts of Florida....didnt know they were "everywhere" though. Some of the places we have stayed such as the Hyatt Grand Cypress, the Ritz Grande Lakes, JW Marriott etc. all have warning signs(with specific alligator references) regarding the water even when the water isn't decked out like an inviting beach.

For those of you waiting for the "trial" it isn't going to happen. Given all the facts here this is an easy one. Disney will be paying a settlement and likely fairly quickly. The only issue is the numbers.

 

[sarah4770]

Hindsight is 20/20 , but Disney knew there were alligators in the lagoon, and they also know their behaviors.
It would not have been unreasonable for them to have someone patrolling the beaches at dusk.

 

[Jennasis]

As far as turning beaches into boardwalks...I found this quote from some analyst (NOT a Disney spokesperson) in the Orlando Sentinel: "Providing visitors more specific information is a good idea, Pacific Asset Management leisure analyst Bob Boyd said.

Boyd said Disney will likely step up monitoring of its gator population. And "I would expect in certain locations they'll effectively over time be fencing off and closing some off some of those areas," he said, referring to the lakefront beaches at its hotels. "I think you'll probably see more boardwalks versus beaches."

Full article here: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/busi...ator-attack-signs-warning-20160616-story.html

 

[Kevin355]

I guess I'm one of those seldom posters who only gets on here when something is bothering me. I think some of you must spend all your time on here putting other people's opinions down. Sad. All I want from Disney is common sense. That little three rope fence may deter people from wading, but I can't believe it would stop an alligator from coming onto the beach. Seriously, are we all going to let this happen again?? What about the canals in the campground? I camped there years ago and didn't think about gators in canals or while watching the Electrical Light Parade. There were plenty of kids playing on the beach every night. Just because an alligator hasn't come up onto the beach doesn't mean it won't happen. Should we wait until it does happen? Yes, I am full of fear. I've been on those very same beaches for 23 years. We even had our two year old granddaughter on the Poly beach Monday night. She didn't go in the water, but she was in the sand. Disney has to find a way to make it safer or I'm not going back. Period.

I understand your point and I am not putting you down.

I have been a police officer for 28+ years in Columbus, OH. I have seen people get murdered while pumping gas or shopping at a mini-mart. I have seen people get killed by drunk drivers. Should the stores put up signs that you may get killed by another person while shopping or pumping gas? Do we need warnings in cars that you may get hit by someone else who was drinking? Signs/warnings are everywhere..."Drive Sober or get Pulled Over." "Click it or ticket." What happens is that people don't follow the rules for so long, my self included, that we think that since it hasn't happened before to them, it never will, it just happens to other people. Just remember, we are all "other people" to other people.

People calling for signage for everything, not you per se, will not cover it. Something will happen that has never happened before and then people will wring their hands over it. And sometimes, accidents just happen. You are safer at WDW than you are in any major city's downtown, a convenient store, on the highway...yet people are more upset about about something that they think should not have occurred or was preventable. I have not seen any less traffic on the freeways in this country, and people flock to Times Square in NYC, and we all go to mini-marts. Just because something bad happened at WDW doesn't mean that WDW is to blame. I have hit 3 deer near "Deer Xing" signs. I read the signs, deer don't. Same with gators. But then someone will get bit by a snake...it is a sad, freak, shocking tragedy.

 

[Kevin355]

true. But does it make it right ? (don't worry, I'm not judging you, I've also been known to break a few rules myself )

but let's push your example even further.

let's say you spill that water, the guest behind you slip on your water, fall and hurt themselves.
Is that a "danger" (possibly financial) on your foreseeable danger scope ?
Your 'victim' would probably use that sign against you.

see where I'm going ?

at that rate, in a world where there is a sign for everything, you'd probably end up having to read and agree to a 10 pages waiver of liability informing you of the risks of high carbs food, before you're allowed to order a hamburger at a restaurant.

Beautiful post...deserves to be seen again.