wdwrule
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Yep I've read a bunch of conflicting news articles. Some say a foot deep, some say ankle deep. I guess we'll have to wait awhile to hear more accurate details as with any case.
Alligator Incident Discussion/Fence being built at Grand Floridian?
- Thread starter dunangst
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Create hysteria? I sit here and ask how someone who frequents the resort and has small children couldn't be hysterical.
I've let my kids build sand castles and get moist sand from the very spot little Lane was snatched at the Grand Floridian, Caribbean Beach, and other resorts and I'm completely distraught at the danger Disney put my kids in. They were supposed to protect me. Instead they put me in danger. Worse? They deceived me. Disney deserves everything its about to get. This was no accident. I hope the Graves family doesn't take a quiet settlement, I hope they sue the crap out of Disney and get justice for Lane and force Disney to make their parks safe again. If we wanted to vacation in a tent on the shore in the Everglades we'd have done just that. We went to Disney to enjoy Florida without it's evil reptiles, not to be exposed to them and enticed to their habitats at feeding time.
LOL. That's about all one can say to this post. Enticed you to a gators "habitat at feeding time." Good grief Charlie Brown. So you contend that Disney wanted this to happen. It also surprise me you are more worried about a gator attack that has happened twice in the history of WDW and not the more very real threat a lone wolf could cause. I for one am much more concerned of crazy people and not regular animals.
While not a known fact, we can deduce some likely conclusions in looking at Disney's actions.
Closing all the beaches at WDW = Admitting there is a risk to guests at all resort areas on the waterfronts.
Putting up signs with clear alligator warnings = The Graves family explaining that they were only aware of a dropoff in the water and an associated risk of drowning but no clue about alligators being present in those waters.
Fences at the shoreline = The boy wasn't "in" the water, he was right at the edge, basically in a puddle.
"We are reinforcing training with our cast for reporting sightings and interactions with wildlife and are expanding our communication to guests on this topic." = The Graves family were not from Florida and didn't know what every Floridian knows about bodies of water.
And, again, Lane's position in 3" or 6" of water or whether or not that constitutes swimming doesn't matter. What matters is why Disney would put people in harm's way at night where the alligators are feeding.
wdwrule
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I don't expect that either....unless there's a kids area in front of those animals' feeding grounds. But anyways the north kill deer for the nuisance factor. Deer have killed many drivers on the roads as a result of them jumping in front of them. So up here we have hunting seasons with stipulations. I would say alligators are a nuisance for sure with the round the clock trapping, relocating them, etc. Perhaps more hunting would help to somewhat eleviate that issue. And maybe they already do for all I know. It's apparently allowed for alligator hunting in Florida.
pigletgirl
Mama to 4 Disney loving kids!
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Wow.... Are you for real?
Evil reptiles? They're not evil, they were only doing what was instinctual. A small child splashing around is going to mimic a small animal.
Disney's parks ARE safe! Haven't you read the last 24 pages? I too, am a parent of two small children. My heart bleeds with Lane's parents. Would you ever take your children to a national park, knowing there could be a bear, a moose or a cougar?
The fear just oozes from your posts. It's all going to be okay. Go have some chocolate.
I'm not saying Disney wanted this to happen. I'm saying Disney is negligent for this, heads should roll for this, and the park should be re engineered due to this.
Do a little research on the Apollo 1 fire back in January 1967. What you'll see there is that it was a one in a million chance that a spark would ignite velcro and incinerate 3 astronauts on a launch pad with dozens of people standing a few feet away from their capsule. Some said that it was just an unfortunate accident. After all, it was the space race and we were building a machine with millions of parts to attempt something that was never done before. Dangerous work, these things happen. Deeper scrutiny showed that really bad decisions were made, the design was bad, people knew of the risks and spoke out, their opinions were squashed, they went ahead with their strategy anyway.
That's what's going on here. It's going to turn out that Disney knew of the escalating alligator problem all along and didn't take it seriously enough. Their actions since Tuesday clearly show they know they are to blame. If their warnings were correct and their preventions were proper, they'd stick to their guns and point out the signs, issue a press release about the unfortunate "accident" and move on. Instead, they're taking the play gym's and the hammocks off these phony beaches and keeping the public away. Matter of time before the firings and the advisory panel's and the recommendations and the action plan. The sooner they get to this the better. I want to go back to Disney World again. When it's safe.
Animals are not more important than humans. If every alligator at Disney World needs to be euthanized or relocated to prevent this from ever happening again, that's what's necessary. There are millions of acres where alligators are allowed to live; a family resort like Walt Disney World which specifically caters to families with small children should be the one place where they are forced to die.
No, I wouldn't take my children to a national park simply because as you point out there might be a bear, moose, or cougar there. I don't need drama on my vacations. We're not adventurers. We don't go mountain climbing or white water rafting. We choose Disney World because beyond it's theme parks it is also a safe and artificial reproduction of a national park. At least it was until Tuesday.
Lastly, I'm not afraid. I simply won't go back. That's the strategy that eliminates this alligator threat. Just like I won't go to a back bowl in Colorado, just like I won't go to a lava field in Hawaii, just like I won't go camping in Alaska, I won't go to a $700 a night resort in Orlando because they can't keep the evil parts of nature away from my kids.
NYUBwayBaby
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So.. I'm just going to mention the lawsuit thing. Not even touching the other stuff. I get you want this to go to court. You want them to relive this again, to be grilled by lawyers. Okay. You want Disney to pay? They'll pay more in a settlement than in court. Why? Because if this goes to court no one group has to be found 100% at fault. To bring up the McDonald coffee lawsuit- the lawsuit where the company had hundreds of injury reports, where coffee was so hot it could cause third degree burns in seconds and they knew, where an elderly woman had third degree burns on 6% of her body- that went to court. McDonald's ended up with 80% at fault, the woman with 20%. Because the cup slipped in her hands in a stationary car. How much do you think jury will find the family at fault here? 10%? 20? 25? Because their kid was in water with a no swimming sign at night? And subsequent remedial measures are not proof of fault/admissible in court. Do you think they want to know how much at fault they are in their child's death?
This will not go to court.
Edit: NOT admissible, typo! Sorry!
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Maistre Gracey
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Wow... Disregarding most of you post because I disagree with it, there is one part I would like to share with you..
If you want Disney to REALLY pay for this, than you should hope for a quiet settlement. It's one of those rare cases that a settlement will yield the family much more than going to trial simply because Disney will pay heavily to avoid the bad publicity of fighting the grieving family.
Now, if your goal is just to show up Disney, that's another story.
MG
I think very few are contending that Disney's signage was lacking and that Disney has a deal of liability in the situation that happened. Yet, the level you are bring this to is the matter that people are reacting too. Disney is no more and no less safe today than it was a week ago when this incident happened. The only thing that has changed is the fact that your rose colored glasses are off. Again, posters have shown that a gator attacked a WDW guest 30 years ago in 1986, and yes with an increasing gator population and an increasing visitor population another attack is bound to happen in the next 30 years (much like the Apollo 1 accident is not the only time NASA lost an astronaut). Mistakes will be made, people will get hurt, it is the way of human life. But we can't react hysterically to every tradgedy that happens. You are right Disney will make an action plan. They will always work to keep their guest safe but they can't keep every predator out of the park and my guess there are far more human predators on the WDW grounds on any given day than animal predators. I'm sorry this incident popped your Disney safety bubble but again Disney is no more and no less safe today than it was last.
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TowMater92
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What caused the problem was the high level of oxygen they pumped in that wasn't necessary, it made a capsule perfect for a fireball.
Disney isn't to blame and they aren't putting up the signs because they know they are wrong they're putting them up for people like you. If you go somewhere and you don't know what the dangers are that's your fault not theirs. So if an earthquake happened at DL and people didn't know that California had earthquakes they should sue Disney because they didn't have signs up everywhere saying there might be an earthquake and what to do? Florida has alligators, they're everywhere and Disney can't stop them. Disney can't even remove them the state has to remove them. It's a sad accident leave it at that. People had their boy bit by a water moccasin and signs weren't put up and people weren't throwing a fit saying signs need to be up warning people. I would be more afraid of a kid being bit by a poisonous snake then an alligator attacking one.
MarkE83
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It's because most of us are reasonable, intelligent people who understand that this is a one in a million freak accident. Incredibly sad, but literally rarer than a one in a million chance of happening. The grand Floridian has been open for almost 30 years, and this has NEVER happened before. And likely would never have happened again, even if Disney did nothing to change the security / access to the water on that beach.
They're building fences in the sand as a temporary measure right now, because it's easily accessible and removes any possibility of people entering the water, unless they REALLY REALLY want to take that risk. Nobody knows what the permanent solution will be.
On the subject of risk... YOU endanger your kids every single day. You put them in cars that can be hit. You leave them with other people at school. You allow them to do a million things in their lifetime that are more likely to cause them harm than this. If you are this concerned, you should probably never leave the house ever again (although that in itself is again a risk). Maybe stay in and watch Chicken Little a few times, and you'll see that the sky isn't actually falling - this is just a tragic accident. Could more have been done to prevent it? Probably. Should Disney be blamed for this, as if they knew there was an alligator there that night and left it there? Absolutely not.
Nancyg56
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I am amazed that any one person can draw the conclusions that you draw despite all of the people who have povided logical and reasonable discussion for you to think about. Disney may or may keep these measures in place long term, however I would suggest that you do not draw any conclusions as to why the measures are in place now. The measures could be fo any number of reasons, not the least of which to pacify people who, like you, think that signs, boulders, and fences will keep them from ever suffering a tragedy. They may be because Disney is inclined to draw literal lines in the sand to keep people from wandering too close to the water, an area which any other day would have been as safe as your bathtub.
DIsney is not going to be able to change the law though, they wil not eradicate all alligators fom their waterways, marshes, and roadways. No more than they can keep the duck away, can they change how they must address the alligato population.
I honestly cannot imagine bringing my family into a world so filled with fear that I stay out of parks, or I choose theme parks because I have convinced myself that a corporation can rebuild a Fairytale land that keeps all things that could be dangerous away fom my family. I have no ide how anyone can remove a natural threatfom my life or that of my children's. I do know I have bought them up to be aware of their surroundings, appreciative of what is around them, and to respect that which is Mother Nature in action. I refused to impose my own unreasonable fears of Gosh, a whole host of things like heights, fast moving water, etc, and ensured that I exposed them to all that I find beautiful and awe inspiring in this Country.
It is my opinion that this irrational hysteria that you are swallowed up in is all about you. Not your kids, but about your ability to be in contol of all your surroundings, and as much as I, a parent and a grandparent, sympathize with that, I simply cannot understand that. I am the furthest thing from an adventurer that there is, but there is no way that I would live my life frightened of all that I do not undestand.
LeanneDownUnder
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I could not have said it better myself Nacnyg56!
chmurf
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no. Admitting to the fact that guests cannot respect posted signs, cannot have the most basic common sense, and act as if they owned the place.
Let's not just forget that there is a fairly high chance that this accident probably wouldn't have happened if some morons had not decided to feed the gators (2nd degree misdemeanor) for god knows how long, and make them lose their natural fear of humans
have you looked at those fences, they're designed to keep humans out, not gators. They can crawl under and still come on the beach.
What you point at is a clear proof that it's a human problem not an aligator problem
aware of steep dropoff, but still wading in a foot of water in the dark, when you can't even see the 'sand' through the water .... Aware that the kid could drop, fall and drown, but still went in ...
I'm not blaming the parents, just saying it's a case of very bad judgement like any parent can know..
Non Floridians are not aware of the 'move over law' or that feeding gators is a forbidden by law, and if they don't research enough before their holidays, then there are consequences.
here the price is very heavy, it's a life lost. But you can't blame Florida for being Florida.
when going to a 'foreign' land (and Florida is as foreign to Nebraska as can be) basic research on the place you're going is something that should not be overlooked
when going to a foreign country, you need to make sure you have proper paperwork or vaccination. Failure to do so may result in a denial of boarding/entry
not properly preparing a holiday is not an excuse, and will probably be considered a percentage of fault if a trial ensues.
are you aware that people have actually died on Theme Parks attractions ? (and this includes Disney parks)
I might even get cynical by saying that people slip to their deaths in their showers, that will probably be a reason to stop washing ... too adventurous and risky ... (I've warned about getting cynical)
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KonaKaiTom
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A tragic event, I cannot even fathom how that family's life will be recoverable. I/we have stayed at the GF many nights. We've walked that path many times. We appreciate the scenic representation of spending the day on the beach. Have we ever thought of going in the water, nope - alligators and snakes and parasites are high on the list of things we try to avoid. I do agree that this will never see the light of day in a court room, a swift, fair and just settlement will be reached out of court. I cannot think of a lawyer that would want to go to court. First, the thought of deposing the mother and father for days on end and forcing them to relive the horror of what they say, what they were thinking, why were they not aware of the danger - that would just be way to much for a family to revisit over and over. Second, the Disney armada of defense lawyers will simply open with this, and keep hammering it home over and over: "Since Disney World opened 45 years ago, the parks have averaged more than 50,000 visitors per day (and we know that the real number will be significantly higher than that), that means 821,250,000 visitors have been in the parks/resorts since they opened, and this event, as tragic as it is, means that it was a 1 in almost 1 billion freak accident - there is no way anyone at Disney could have ever thought such a tragedy would occur, is that what a reasonable person would think?"
In reality, the family will probably be in therapy for a long, long time. They will never, ever forget, nor completely recover from the horror. They will probably never leave their surviving child alone, unsupervised, forever. Disney will most likely install much more permanent fencing, I'm guessing wrought iron, similar to what they have surrounding the World Showcase Lagoon, around all the of the waterways in the parks and I doubt you will be able to rent the SeaRacers or the Pontoon or Boston Whaler boats anymore.
Think of how many young children have either drowned, or come close to drowning at the resorts? When we first went to the parks I think the pools were open 24/7. Then, after some tragedies, signs went up that the pools closed at dusk or 10pm or whatever. Now, they've gone around putting up fences and closing the pools when not attended by a lifeguard - except for the pools that are still open with a "Swim at your own risk...." sign.
Hold your children close, tell your loved ones you love them everyday, and remember that life is fleeting.
Tom
In reality, the family will probably be in therapy for a long, long time. They will never, ever forget, nor completely recover from the horror. They will probably never leave their surviving child alone, unsupervised, forever. Disney will most likely install much more permanent fencing, I'm guessing wrought iron, similar to what they have surrounding the World Showcase Lagoon, around all the of the waterways in the parks and I doubt you will be able to rent the SeaRacers or the Pontoon or Boston Whaler boats anymore.
Think of how many young children have either drowned, or come close to drowning at the resorts? When we first went to the parks I think the pools were open 24/7. Then, after some tragedies, signs went up that the pools closed at dusk or 10pm or whatever. Now, they've gone around putting up fences and closing the pools when not attended by a lifeguard - except for the pools that are still open with a "Swim at your own risk...." sign.
Hold your children close, tell your loved ones you love them everyday, and remember that life is fleeting.
Tom
MarkE83
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http://www.wdwinfo.com/news-stories/update-on-water-related-activities-at-walt-disney-world/
SeaRacers are still put, but they have already re-instated the pontoon boats and Boston Whalers. As sad as this accident was, life goes on.
maxiesmom
The Mean Squinty Eye Works
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Boltjames--Are you unaware of all of the cougar sightings in Florida? They are not just in National Parks, but they do roam. We have them here in Michigan too. Along with bears, moose, coyotes, and various other "dangerous" critters. They don't know park boundaries.
WDW in no way is an artificial national park. And you are missing out on so much by being afraid to go to them. To repeat an old saying we all die, but are you really going to live before you do?
WDW in no way is an artificial national park. And you are missing out on so much by being afraid to go to them. To repeat an old saying we all die, but are you really going to live before you do?
GPC0321
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DISNEY did not put that child IN THE WATER. His PARENTS allowed that. DISNEY was hosting events farther back on the beach, at which no one was harmed. This child died because he was IN THE WATER that night splashing around, not because he was several yards AWAY from the water eating s'mores and watching a movie. Three inches or three feet doesn't matter. In the water means IN. THE. WATER. Disney did not encourage those parents to take that child INTO THE WATER. THEY did that on their own account. Despite it being "pitch dark" down there as you claim and there being "NO Swimming" signs posted, which many (myself included) take to mean people should not be IN THE WATER.
You can blame Disney all you want, and that's fine. But blaming Disney does not change the fact that these parents made the decision to let their child play in that water that night, not Disney. And playing IN THE WATER is what ultimately got him killed.
And I'm sorry if faulting the parents' lack of judgment about this is so infuriating to some. I'm not insensitive to the tragedy they've suffered, and I was physically sickened and horrified imagining what it must have been like for them when I heard. But the fact that my heart breaks for them does not overshadow my rational thinking about this situation and why it happened. And I'll even admit that had Disney put up warning signs about gators and snakes forbidding entrance into the water, this may have all been avoided. It's very true. If the parents had kept their child out of that water it most definitely would have been avoided.
It's been a very tragic lesson for all involved, IMO. Not JUST Disney or JUST the parents.
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