Alligator Incident Discussion/Fence being built at Grand Floridian?

[Boardwalk Tigger]

It amazes me that people who are well aware that there are alligators in Florida are shocked - shocked! - to hear that they are also on Disney property. Do they think that alligators or any other wildlife somehow respect the "Disney Bubble"? I saw a poster on one of these threads say they were shocked this happened at Disney, and "especially at the Grand Floridian". Really? Like if it was the lower priced hotels it would be more expected? I just think it's ridiculous. People have to assume responsibility for their own actions. Australia has weird (to me) venomous creepy crawly creatures, and if I was attacked by one of them when we visited, I wouldn't have blamed the hotel I was staying at. I would just assume any indigenous creature could be anywhere any time. I know Disney marketing is top notch but do people literally think its some kind of literal magic kingdom for goodness sake?

And then the people wanting all alligators killed. Come on, yes let's force another species to extinction because... peeps want a theme park. This is yet another reason why people suck.

No one is talking about making the alligator extinct!!! Come on! It does however sound like the State of Florida has to deal with an overpopulation of alligators in their near future and not because of this particular incident alone. The overall population may be getting too large and may compromise safety of people and other animals. It's sounds like it is or will be a statewide issue. Again up to the government

 

[Boardwalk Tigger]

If they have mentioned this in the news or it has been posted on a thread, I missed it but Disney has said they will keep searching for the alligator that attakced the little boy. How will they know if they have found the right alligator ?

My guess was they were looking for some Dna from the boy inside the gator.

 

[Deb & Bill]

My guess was they were looking for some Dna from the boy inside the gator.

They said they would match teeth marks on the child with the alligator.

 

[cruisingtwins]

Here is what I don't get, is how people who say they come to Florida all the time have never seen a gator. No offence, but even when we get off the plane, and take the monorail into the main section of the airport, we will often see an alligator. And it's not like I am able to visit all the time, due to geographical reasons. Over the years we see alligators on at least half of our visits. Perhaps we are looking for them more, or are more aware of our surroundings, but we do- growing up in the North you need to be aware of where you are and what is around you. We have seen them swimming in the water, on the Disney golf courses while playing golf, on the side of the highway within Disney property, we have even seen one that was being captured in the moat around the Magic Kingdom. We were not too surprised by it, and mentioned it to a cast member while waiting for the Jungle Cruise. They told us that although it is rare to see them around the Moat, they usually will find them along the Jungle Cruise during mating season. Apparently, the alligators mistake the fake ones for the real ones. To be honest, this incident just tears at my heart and has really really bothered me. This one incident has now profoundly affected this family's life- even when they watch tv and see an ad for the Disney movie to come out, they will be reminded. It's all of the little things in years to come that will continually affect them, and I don't think they will ever get over something like this. My prayers and thoughts are to them and all of Orlando. I also think that what happened to this little boy could have happened to anybody and I hope that there are water fences to help stop the alligators from coming to the beaches. Tourists also need to get it together and stop feeding the animals- this isn't rocket science. I hope Disney begins to fine these people and perhaps sign a waiver when they check in that they will not feed the animals.

I've been to florida way too many times, lived in Orlando for 9 months last year and have never seen a gator. Also I had no idea there were gators at the Disney beaches. For whatever reason people don't/didn't have this information stop making it like everyone knew or should have known.

 

[Deb & Bill]

I've seen alligators at BCV and MK. And we have them in NW Louisiana, too.

 

[tink'smom2B]

It reportedly happened at 9:16pm. The movie was said to have ended at 8:30pm.

Movie started at 8:30.

 

[GPC0321]

Exactly! Again should have had alligator warning signs. Like it or lump it Disney was negligent and changes will be made. They're already being made. I walk through puddles. I'm not swimming. Just a shame this happened for Disney to finally put up some not so magical signs. I could picture a family letting their child walk through the edge of the water being close by because of the "no swimming" sign. To me I thought it was because no lifeguard is on duty. I'm extremely happy they'll put up those signs and most likely put up barriers whether natural or not. The park caters to families. Make it family friendly. Sorry for those who's trip will be ruined because of a little lack of aesthetics. If it means saving some future lives that's more important to me. I really hope CM's stop referring to alligators seen on property as the "resident pets". No wonder people feed them. We don't but when CM's make the beasts sound playful and lovely and refer to them as pets..... Some people will no matter what and I get that. And don't get me wrong...I do now and then sip the Disney Kool-Aid...I just don't guzzle it and rely on it. 30 years from now people will walk by the fences/barriers and be like "what, there was no barrier here before?!?!?!" Everyone has their own opinion and I respect that. I'll be happy and relieved when I visit next year and see the fences and new signs.

My point was that swimming or wading, gator or no gator, a two-year old baby should not be IN a strange body of water where swimming is prohibited at 9:00 pm.
Had the child stepped on and been bitten by a venomous snake, would that be Disney's negligence too?
As for the signs and fences, I have no issue with them. If it helps keep people aware and safe, then I'm all for it. I just wish people didn't NEED such explicit warnings and security measures, I guess.

 

[boltjames]

Every time I see this, my eye twitches and my blood pressure shoots up.
No, he wasn't doing the butterfly stroke around the Seven Seas Lagoon, so technically he wasn't "swimming". But he was in a body of water with "NO Swimming" signs at night. A two year old. In the water. At night.
I don't care if he was swimming, wading or what, it is never a good idea to allow a child that young and small to play in an unknown body of water that people are not allowed to swim in at night. It just isn't. Splitting hairs over the sign is silly. Even if there wasn't a sign at all and people routinely swam laps around the darn thing during the day, it STILL isn't a good idea to allow a 2 year old baby to get into that water at night. Not to the bottoms of his feet, his ankles, his knees or however deep he was. And not because of the risk of alligator attacks. But because he's a 2 YEAR OLD BABY and it's an unknown body of water in which swimming is prohibited and it's 9 o'clock at night! He could step on a snake, run from his parents and wind up in much deeper water and go under and be very hard to find in the dark in a body of water as huge as that lagoon.

All that said, people make mistakes. Disney makes mistakes AND PARENTS MAKE MISTAKES. Disney will most likely take the blame for this and the parents will receive a lot of money that will not bring their son back or change the "woulda, shoulda, couldas" that are doubtless plaguing them right now.

The fact remains that if that little fella had been a foot or so away from the water instead of in it, he would most likely still be here. Gators listen for splashing and hunt IN the water because they can then easily subdue (drown) their prey. So staying OUT Of the water hugely reduces anyone's chance of getting attacked by a gator.

For the 100th time:

The child was a "foot out" in the water, not in water a foot deep. If the water were 3" high I'd be surprised.

These are photos of the beach in question. There is a 'shelf' of sand that goes out about 6 feet and then a sharp falloff, just as explained by the Disney signs. The child was kicking sand castles at the water line, right where the baby is in the photo above. The water on this 'shelf' is only a few inches deep. The poor boy who was attacked was up to his ankles, the only way to get in deeper would have been to be fully submerged where that shelf drops off sharply.

THE CHILD WAS NOT SWIMMING. It was pitch black, he was building sand castles, and unfortunately splashed in that little puddle of an area which attracted the attention of an alligator perched in the deeper water at the falloff. Blaming the parents is beyond an outrage. Disney screwed up.

 

[Jason2015]

Movie started at 8:30. View attachment 176419

Great thanks for proving the point. Bolt was contending that Beach events need to be canceled at night as it places the kids at an incredible risk, yet according to the schedule there were no beach events on the evening of the gator attack so Disney did not entice the family down to the beach with its movies and s'mores.

 

[boltjames]

Have you ever been to the Grand Floridian for one of these movie nights? If not, please go to google images and you will see that it is no where near "pitch dark". There is plenty of light from light posts, buildings etc. You can see your surroundings, the people around you, and yes, where the water's edge is. Why do you make statements that are alarming and completely untrue. Yes, the beach is used for activities at night, but not the water. The alligator did not come up on the beach and out of the water to attack the little boy. If alligators posed such a dangerous risk at WDW as you claim, you would have heard about it before your belief in the WDW safety bubble was popped this week.

The outcome does not dictate how dangerous the situation is. The likelihood of the danger occurring does. The risk of being attacked by an alligator at WDW or anywhere else is phenomenally low. Should WDW have signs warning about the possibility of bee stings, trees falling in high winds, buildings collapsing, sink holes, food poisoning, etc? All could possibly happen, and all could possibly be fatal.

The alligator came up out of the deep water, over the ledge that the Disney signs clearly warn about with the "STEEP DROPOFF" language, and snatched the boy who was in, at most, 3" of water. He was on the beach, kicking over sandcastles, and as 2 year olds in the dark might do, walked 12" too far away from his sister, wound up splashing and creating a shadow, and that's what triggered the alligator to jump up and grab him.

I have been on that beach, and other of these Disney faux beaches, plenty of times at night and the ambient light off of the buildings is not enough to see anything clearly. Hello. That's the reason they show an outdoor movie there.

All your talk about there not being enough of a danger is exactly what got this boy killed. Statistics mean nothing today. Alligators are being conditioned to not fear humans and they are multiplying. This is a problem Disney did not take seriously enough and now we have a national tragedy. Disney is supposed to protect us from this, not invite us to the alligator's kitchen at feeding time.

 

[boltjames]

It amazes me that people who are well aware that there are alligators in Florida are shocked - shocked! - to hear that they are also on Disney property. Do they think that alligators or any other wildlife somehow respect the "Disney Bubble"?

Sorry, not everyone took Marine Ecology In The United States in college, some of us were studying other, more important things. Up here in New York, we know alligators are indigenous to Florida, we know they're a threat in the Everglades, no one knows they live in every body of water in the entire state, no one knows they were allowed to multiply into the millions, no one thinks they'd be flourishing at Disney World because they don't have any signs with alligators on them anywhere and they allow people to participate in water sports on the lake and the lagoon.

How would someone from Nebraska know that there would be a threat if Disney isn't telling them. Worse, why would someone from Nebraska even think there was a threat if Disney was soliciting them to go enjoy a movie in an alligator habitat at feeding time, something even the most basic Floridian would know since grade school?

 

[boltjames]

Great thanks for proving the point. Bolt was contending that Beach events need to be canceled at night as it places the kids at an incredible risk, yet according to the schedule there were no beach events on the evening of the gator attack so Disney did not entice the family down to the beach with its movies and s'mores.

What are you talking about.

The attack happened Tuesday night at 9:25. The movie Zootopia is on the schedule that was posted with an 8:30 start time.

 

[Jason2015]

For the 100th time:

The child was a "foot out" in the water, not in water a foot deep. If the water were 3" high I'd be surprised.

These are photos of the beach in question. There is a 'shelf' of sand that goes out about 6 feet and then a sharp falloff, just as explained by the Disney signs. The child was kicking sand castles at the water line, right where the baby is in the photo above. The water on this 'shelf' is only a few inches deep. The poor boy who was attacked was up to his ankles, the only way to get in deeper would have been to be fully submerged where that shelf drops off sharply.

THE CHILD WAS NOT SWIMMING. It was pitch black, he was building sand castles, and unfortunately splashed in that little puddle of an area which attracted the attention of an alligator perched in the deeper water at the falloff. Blaming the parents is beyond an outrage. Disney screwed up.

I think the point is the child was in the water. Once he entered the water the risk of an accident rose expentially. Whether it would be wading to far out in the dark and hitting the drop-off or being attacked by an unseen predator. Had the child been a foot FROM the water than he most likely would not have drawn the attention of the predator. So there is no need to have the knee-jerk reaction of canceling beach events, closing the beach, building a gator proof wall. Some education, the small rope fence, signs, will help stop this problem no reason to overreact and take everything away.

 

[boltjames]

My point was that swimming or wading, gator or no gator, a two-year old baby should not be IN a strange body of water where swimming is prohibited at 9:00 pm.
Had the child stepped on and been bitten by a venomous snake, would that be Disney's negligence too?
As for the signs and fences, I have no issue with them. If it helps keep people aware and safe, then I'm all for it. I just wish people didn't NEED such explicit warnings and security measures, I guess.

Your point is wrong because you ignore the facts. You can keep typing it over and over, doesn't mean you're right.

The 2 year old was at the edge of the beach where kids were building sandcastles and drifted a whopping 12" into maybe 3" of water. Sounds like he was in that spot for mere seconds, caused enough of a tiny splash to draw the attention of an alligator that was drawn to the spot minutes earlier by the smell of graham crackers and marshmallows in the evening air.

For all intents and purposes, the alligator sprung up from deep water, beached himself on that low shelf that Disney designed for aesthetics, grabbed the boy, pulled him under.

Disney is negligent on many levels. The primary one is inviting small children to a known alligator habitat at feeding time. No different than knowing of a cabin full of bees and inviting families to tea there.

 

[boltjames]

I think the point is the child was in the water. Once he entered the water the risk of an accident rose expentially. Whether it would be wading to far out in the dark and hitting the drop-off or being attacked by an unseen predator. Had the child been a foot FROM the water than he most likely would not have drawn the attention of the predator. So there is no need to have the knee-jerk reaction of canceling beach events, closing the beach, building a gator proof wall. Some education, the small rope fence, signs, will help stop this problem no reason to overreact and take everything away.

You are drilling down to details that both aren't accurate and don't support a rational point. In the water, out of the water, it's not the big issue here. This is:

Disney can host outdoor movies in many locations, so why did they think it best to put them on the edge of a known alligator habitat at feeding time with the scent of graham crackers in the air and 2 year olds who easily could get disoriented in the dark?

Knee-jerk reaction of cancelling beach events? It's more like a long-overdue correction to a stupid decision made by imagineers with no imagination.

 

[Lynne M]

I should know better than to take the bait, but this article will add a fact or two to the fanciful theories. According to the authorities who spoke with people who were actually there, the child was standing in water that was a foot deep.

http://www.wesh.com/news/so-child-d...r-disneys-grand-floridian-resort-spa/40058064

And I doubt very much that alligators are attracted by the scent of graham crackers.

 

[wdwrule]

My point was that swimming or wading, gator or no gator, a two-year old baby should not be IN a strange body of water where swimming is prohibited at 9:00 pm.
Had the child stepped on and been bitten by a venomous snake, would that be Disney's negligence too?
As for the signs and fences, I have no issue with them. If it helps keep people aware and safe, then I'm all for it. I just wish people didn't NEED such explicit warnings and security measures, I guess.

I just think a lot of people including myself are in shock with the alligator situation at resort beaches and the fact that Disney encourages family fun on the beaches. I understand freak accidents happen and I'm not sue happy at all. I just think this whole situation is wishy-washy. There's too much of a gray area starting with the signage. Disney I'm sure never wanted to place "beware of alligator/snake" signs to begin with because of bad business. They don't want anything negative. They want their world to be happy and magical and everything pleasing to the eye which I get, but safety comes before magical. Sometimes you just gotta put it out there. And now they are. I know Florida has alligators but from seeing all of the posts and pics of alligator sightings in WDW parks, and on resort beaches where kids are encouraged to play....I admit I had no idea! I assumed they had taken most of them out but apparently it's a huge problem that's getting worse and worse. Trapping every night, etc. I know some parents definitely need more explicit warnings especially at one of the most popular places in the world that's visited by travelers from all over the world. "No swimming" is way too vague for its purpose. Just in my opinion, again, they probably chose that because that sign is less frightening .....for business. As bold and direct that the new sign is, I would imagine most, not all, but a higher percentage than previously would stay even a few feet back from the water's edge. That's the part I think Disney is negligent on....vague signage when they knew there was an alligator problem at a place where kids are encouraged to play. The very next morning I watched staff scramble to rip down hammocks on the beach and slap up "beach closed" signs at Coronado Springs.

 

[sndral]

They can collect DNA in some surprising situations - but whether the alligator's would be on the 2 year old's body after it had been submerged so long, or vice versa - I'm not sure. Certainly DNA would be proof positive they found the culprit alligator. The value of tooth mark evidence depends on how unique the bite is and how well preserved on the body.

Exactly right, BT. Exactly right.
...and Disney regulars could sleep better again. Sweep these waterways once or twice a week, goes a very long way to solving the problem.

I consider myself a regular and I'm not losing sleep over alligators in WDW.

... They have lost my trust and the trust of millions of visitors who never, not once, ever thought they were putting their little ones at risk.

It's clear some are upset - but I'd be surprised if it was 'millions.' People were upset w/ the drowning at AOA, yet attendance didn't go down. I'd guess that even before this incident most didn't let their toddlers venture into that yucky water after dark - more because it seems like a drowning waiting to happen, or a foot waiting to need stitches because of a cut on broken glass, or a water moccasin bite, not out of fear of lurking alligators.
Many many posters have stated that they aren't natives of alligator locales yet they knew that WDW & Florida had alligators. I'm a California native and I know WDW has alligators - in fact I like to look for them when I ride on park buses. One reason I prefer WDW over DL is because WDW is surrounded by nature v. DL which is surrounded by asphalt and motels. It's obvious from one ride on the Epcot monorail, one boat trip from MK to WL, one boat ride from DS to POR, one bus ride just about anywhere that the resorts are nestled into woods/wilderness & that brings critters that live there - including snakes & alligators, bats & bears, armadillos & snapping turtles, etc.. Indeed it's not unusual for boat captains to point an alligator out if they see one.
I've never seen the attraction of water sprites and the like in that yucky water w/ all that boat traffic - but realistically an alligator isn't going to grab someone riding one of those noisy things mid lake.
I don't expect Yosemite to kill all of the Bears & Mt. Lions, Yellowstone the Grizzlies & wolves, Ca beach towns the Sharks, Alaska the Polar Bears, towns w/ deer & moose to remove all male animals during the rut, etc. just because some one is afraid of them or people need to exercise caution around certain animals at certain times. Those who fear these animals simply don't visit places where they are. Those who want a guaranteed alligator free vacation should probably avoid Florida, including WDW.
Signs are good, the rope fence reinforces the message of we really mean stay out of the water. Of course people will ignore them, they always do, but for those who follow rules the signs & rope will make the warning & reason for it very clear.

 

[Jason2015]

You are drilling down to details that both aren't accurate and don't support a rational point. In the water, out of the water, it's not the big issue here. This is:

Disney can host outdoor movies in many locations, so why did they think it best to put them on the edge of a known alligator habitat at feeding time with the scent of graham crackers in the air and 2 year olds who easily could get disoriented in the dark?

Knee-jerk reaction of cancelling beach events? It's more like a long-overdue correction to a stupid decision made by imagineers with no imagination.

You are trying to create hysteria where there is none. Yes it matters in and out of the water. The gator (according to all the experts) was attracted by the splashing sounds IN the water. Much like the sounds of a struggling small animal. Had the child been OUT of the water than there would have been no splashing sounds and thus no gator to attack. I really don't think the gator was attracted by the "scent of graham crackers in the air." Plus I'm pretty sure that the movie is not on the "edge of a known alligator habitat" but more like 20 yards away. Plus all reports does not have this as a "disoriented" child wandering lost but a child splashing in the water with his dad next to him. So yes in/out of the water completely matters. Quite the hysteria and join the real world. No reason to overreact and end the fun for all because of the mistake of one.

 

[boltjames]

I should know better than to take the bait, but this article will add a fact or two to the fanciful theories. According to the authorities who spoke with people who were actually there, the child was standing in water that was a foot deep.

http://www.wesh.com/news/so-child-d...r-disneys-grand-floridian-resort-spa/40058064

And I doubt very much that alligators are attracted by the scent of graham crackers.

This is also in the same article you just posted the link to:

"My understanding is that he was not swimming," said sheriff’s office spokesperson Jeff Williamson.

According to Demings, it appears the child died after being dragged by the alligator into the water, where he drowned because his body was intact.

From another article:

Witnesses said Lane was giggling and having fun in about 6 inches to a foot of water on the shoreline of the 172-acre lagoon during an outdoor movie event before the alligator dragged him away at about 9 p.m. Tuesday — with his horrified parents, Matt and Melissa Graves, nearby.

“The kids were playing and the little guy [Lane] was knocking down their sandcastles,” said a resort guest.

“He was just on the edge of the water . . . and all of a sudden . . . [the alligator] went up that fast.”

http://nypost.com/2016/06/16/gators-routinely-removed-from-lagoon-where-toddler-was-attacked/

No fanciful theories. Just more detailed quotes from guests who witnessed the attack. Giggling in as little as 6" of water. Kicking down sandcastles. Not swimming. Dragged into the water.

But, again, these details really aren't the issue. It's not an issue of whether or not standing in a puddle of water constitutes "swimming". The issue is why Disney would put children on the precipice of a known alligator habitat at feeding time. They're supposed to protect the children from threats like this, not encourage it.