AK Attendence

[KNWVIKING]

***"DCA....... would not be the ghost towns they are known to be."***

Is there more then one AK ? Because the one I go to in May,Oct and Dec is never a ghost town.

 

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
"Is there two AK"- Yes we all know that park that closes down at 5:00 everyday does so because of the "crowds". Or is it to rest and save the animals this week?

Actually, the park closes down when it does because of the rules and regulations set down by the American Zoo and Aquarium Association regarding the "working hours" of captive animals. While I'm sure that if MK-sized crowds were wandering through DAK that Disney would be going for a variance with the AZAA, there are plenty of crowds that are shuttled out at closing who would gladly stay longer to watch the animals and ride the rides at night if they were so allowed.

As for your belief that crowds are NOT there ... do you have first hand observation of the lack of crowds? When was the last time you visited? Last year, DAK was number 5 on the list of "Top 50 North American Theme Parks." The least visited of the Disney parks, although just barely behind the Studios. And the park still had over a million more visitors than IOA and significantly more than either SeaWorld or Busch Gardens.

So to say that DAK is closing early due to low crowds is inaccurate on two counts.

Regarding CGI vs. hand-drawn, I think that in this day and age, if you had the same story but opened up two films simultaneously -- one hand-drawn and one CGI -- the CGI film would be the winner at the box office. Again ... it may not always be this way, and hand-drawn may see a resurgence. But I do think that a big chunk of the kid audience does indeed choose to go to a film simply because it's CGI because hand-drawn looks old-fashioned to them. Shrek wouldn't be Shrek as a 2-D character, regardless of how good the story is. And Nemo wouldn't have been Nemo in 2-D either. I would, however, have enjoyed seeing how Brother Bear looked in CGI.

And while Disney has indeed let go of many creative people, to say that Disney has "fired every creative person in sight" may not be received too well by the people who are currently working in Imagineering and Animation. I'm not counting on "another Pixar" to come along. I'm counting on the currently creative people at Imagineering and Animation to use their talents and create new work. But that doesn't mean that I would mind if a Vanguard Studio or someone came into the fold as well. Why does it have to be all or nothing?

 

[Phoebesaturn]

Originally posted by WDSearcher
Actually, the park closes down when it does because of the rules and regulations set down by the American Zoo and Aquarium Association regarding the "working hours" of captive animals. While I'm sure that if MK-sized crowds were wandering through DAK that Disney would be going for a variance with the AZAA, there are plenty of crowds that are shuttled out at closing who would gladly stay longer to watch the animals and ride the rides at night if they were so allowed.

As for your belief that crowds are NOT there ... do you have first hand observation of the lack of crowds? When was the last time you visited? Last year, DAK was number 5 on the list of "Top 50 North American Theme Parks." The least visited of the Disney parks, although just barely behind the Studios. And the park still had over a million more visitors than IOA and significantly more than either SeaWorld or Busch Gardens.

BWHAHAHAAHAHAHAAH!!!!

Bush Gardens is regualry open 3-4 hours longer then AK and they have of captive Animals
So why didn't they follow these rules the Frist year or two they were open? I think this little Urban myth has been put down here before.

Lets see last time I was there was Nov 2002. Walked on to Kali River Rapids, Tough to be a bug....theater was 1/5 full....Walked the Maharajah Jungle Trek without seeing a soul....walked on to Kilimanjaro Safari the jeep was half full.....and so on. I think we stayed until just after lunch and got out of dodge with the rest of the "crowds" after it became 100 degrees on a 80 degree day.

And while Disney has indeed let go of many creative people, to say that Disney has "fired every creative person in sight" may not be received too well by the people who are currently working in Imagineering and Animation. I'm not counting on "another Pixar" to come along. I'm counting on the currently creative people at Imagineering and Animation to use their talents and create new work.

Too bad they have been holding back and letting Pixar do all the work until now. Good that you have faith in people currently at Diseny suddnley steping up to Pixar work level...wonder why they've waited so long and been holding back that type of work?

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
Lets see last time I was there was Nov 2002. Walked on to Kali River Rapids, Tough to be a bug....theater was 1/5 full....Walked the Maharajah Jungle Trek without seeing a soul....walked on to Kilimanjaro Safari the jeep was half full.....and so on. I think we stayed until just after lunch and got out of dodge with the rest of the "crowds" after it became 100 degrees on a 80 degree day.

Let's see last time I was at MK was December 2003. Went in at early entry, finished all of Fantasyland by 9:30, walked on to just about everything (Buzz, Pirates, Haunted Mansion) all day long.

 

[raidermatt]

Actually, the park closes down when it does because of the rules and regulations set down by the American Zoo and Aquarium Association regarding the "working hours" of captive animals.

Sea World Orlando is open until 9pm or 10pm each night this week.

During the Summer, the San Diego Zoo is open until 9pm.

AK used to be open until 7pm. At least as recently as last year, it was open until 6pm during peak periods.


We've gone round and round on the question of how much AK's numbers are due to its own appeal and how much is due to its spot next to the other parks.

But the hours can't be excused away.

 

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by Phoebesaturn
Bush Gardens is regualry open 3-4 hours longer then AK and they have of captive Animals. So why didn't they follow these rules the Frist year or two they were open? I think this little Urban myth has been put down here before.

Busch Gardens opened long before DAK did, and rules regarding animal usage and captivity were far different then. I think even you have to agree that people have become far more stringent as to how animals are presented in zoos and animal parks than they were back when Busch Gardens opened in 1980.

Lets see last time I was there was Nov 2002. Walked on to Kali River Rapids, Tough to be a bug....theater was 1/5 full....Walked the Maharajah Jungle Trek without seeing a soul....walked on to Kilimanjaro Safari the jeep was half full.....and so on. I think we stayed until just after lunch and got out of dodge with the rest of the "crowds" after it became 100 degrees on a 80 degree day.

Do you really think it's accurate to state as fact that DAK is a ghost town today, simply because it was 19 months ago? You might want to get a more recent account.

Too bad they have been holding back and letting Pixar do all the work until now. Good that you have faith in people currently at Diseny suddnley steping up to Pixar work level...wonder why they've waited so long and been holding back that type of work?

I don't think they'll be "suddenly" stepping up to Pixar work level. I don't understand why you believe that they've all be lying around doing nothing, glomming off Pixar. Lion King, Mulan, Tarzan, Fantasia 2000, Lilo & Stitch, Treasure Planet (OK ... box office bomb, but visually stunning) and Brother Bear are some of the films that were made while Pixar was "doing all the work." Just because they weren't all big box office smash hits doesn't mean they were done by non-creative dolts.

 

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by raidermatt
But the hours can't be excused away.

Agreed. But to say that DAK is an empty ghost town today simply because it was back in Nov 2002 isn't accurate either. The park is the 5th most visited theme park in the US, posting higher numbers than Busch Gardens, Sea World, Universal Orlando and IOA, not to mention all the year-round Six Flags parks and the San Diego Zoo.

DAK animal use variances have been in use since day one. The park closes at dusk at the latest, because that's the animal's schedule and that's what the park is bound by. I'll agree that attendance begins to wane towards the end of the day, making it easier to close that park at 5pm or 6pm and hustle people over to MK or Epcot, but it's not like there's only two people left there at closing.

 

[raidermatt]

I agree, its the extreme statements that help make these discussions so tiring at times.

No, AK is not, and never was a ghost town.

But if the park is closing 2-3 hours before dusk, then any concerns about the animals are not limiting factors. They are irrelevant. Disney is limiting the hours moreso than at their other parks because the demand just isn't there.

Also, drawing more people than the parks/zoos you mentioned isn't much of a standard for a WDW park, is it?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I think his point was that DAK can hardly be considered to be lowly attended when it brings in significantly more guests than its in-town and regional competitors

Two points about this kind of naive and rather slanted position:

FIRST: But can it really be considered anything else when it sits next to and is “SOLD” in conjunction with the premier theme park in the world AND the close second!?!?!?

And if not “lowly attended” then what else would you call it? Highly attended? Medium attended? I think not! Especially considering the prime location – ‘lowly’ seems most appropriate!!

SECOND: Wouldn’t you have to excise the 'vacationers' out of the equation and just measure how many locals attend both? It seems silly to use a 'local' reference and not even try to level the playing field a bit, doesn’t it?

Then again, I'm just fascinated by the fact that the AK issue found its way into a discussion regarding whether 2-D or CG will become the animated alpha male...

Please!! You sound as green as someone who just wandered over here from Laughing Place or WDWMAGIC!! Come, come sir!! You’re a seasoned professional here. How many thread (more than just a couple pages) EVER stay on topic!?!?!?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Is it still more attended than any of the three other major non-Disney parks within an approx 10 mile radius. Yes, the figures bear that out too.

But that’s not quite what you said, now is it. Kind of like a bait and switch thing. You said:

I think his point was that DAK can hardly be considered to be lowly attended when it brings in significantly more guests than its in-town and regional competitors

Now I will admit that it is a confusing sentence. And now that I look back on it, you certainly left a lot of wiggle room. But I took it to mean LOCAL (in-town). I’m sorry if that was he wrong take on things.

And I still contend that you have to level the playing field somehow, or give quite an edge to AK just because it shares the same zip code as the Magic Kingdom and EPCOT! I really don’t understand how you can’t see that.

DAK is more highly attended than any other non-Disney park in the United States.

How do you think that attendance would be if we moved AK to the other side of Orlando? Or even just across the street from Universal? Do you really think that the numbers would be the same? Even close to the same??!!

DAK may have a variety of alleged failures. Some may even argue that it has fallen short of WDW's expectations. But, in the context of American amusment and theme parks, the fact is simple and indisputable.

What fact? That it has a variety of failures? Or that it has fallen woefully short of WDW’s expectations?

Or perhaps the “indisputable fact” is that it enjoys a very poor reputation and extremely low attendance (by Disney’s standards) even though it has the Magic Kingdom and EPCOT as a draw?

Of course, that's not to say that any "side" will give an inch on this issue

It has nothing to do with ‘sides’, Scoop. It has to do with what is Disney and what is not!

Folks, generally either really love or really dislike DAK. There seems to be very little lukewarm bathwater regarding this park.

Again, it has nothing to do with your subjective, personal tastes.

 

[KNWVIKING]

but just a few observations.

Parks like Busch & San Diego are stand alone parks. When they close,the guests go home, cash flow ends. They need to be open longer.

Fireworks: I doubt any of us think a fireworks display in AK would be appropriate, agreed ? But it doesn't change he fact that we all love firework displays. Even if AK stayed open late, people would be bailing out so they could get to a Wishes,Illums or Fantasmics.

Back to Busch Gardens: Is their safari open till closing ? I seem to recall it shut down a few hours prior to park closing. Busch Gardens is also like two seperate parks - or rather one theme park with a safari. Animals are not an integral part of BG as they are AK.

Ok, back to reading the rest of the posts.

 

[Phoebesaturn]

Originally posted by WDSearcher
Busch Gardens opened long before DAK did, and rules regarding animal usage and captivity were far different then. I think even you have to agree that people have become far more stringent as to how animals are presented in zoos and animal parks than they were back when Busch Gardens opened in 1980.

Please see Matt's comments...what explains the hours the first two years the park was open? Suddenly these parks don't have fallow these "animal working hours"? Which nobody else in the country seems to follow not even AK its first two years of being open.

I would love to seem some sort of verifiable source for these "Rules" that AK has suddenly been forced to follow.

Do you really think it's accurate to state as fact that DAK is a ghost town today, simply because it was 19 months ago? You might want to get a more recent account.

OK you've nitpicked me into retracting the Ghosttown comment in regards to AK...... I don't buy for one minute its reported attendance. I was there every year it opened until last year. (going this year) and I really haven't seen the huge number of crowds you see at MK, MGM or Epcot. The reason that you may see any crowds at AK are due to Disney cutting 3-6 hours off of that Available park visiting time. Which forces everyone that may want to visit the park all there at the same time.

I don't think they'll be "suddenly" stepping up to Pixar work level. I don't understand why you believe that they've all be lying around doing nothing, glomming off Pixar. Lion King, Mulan, Tarzan, Fantasia 2000, Lilo & Stitch, Treasure Planet (OK ... box office bomb, but visually stunning) and Brother Bear are some of the films that were made while Pixar was "doing all the work." Just because they weren't all big box office smash hits doesn't mean they were done by non-creative dolts.

Lilo & Stitch are the only in-house recent "successfully" animated work. It did not touch Pixar's work. From what I understand it benefited from not having Eisners hand in the work too. So yes...now that Pixar is leaving( it seems) Disney is really going to have to elevate their work to if they want to even come close to Pixar work.

 

[KNWVIKING]

Obviously AK benifits from the MK draw and the popularity of AP's, UPH's and PHP ticket media, but to some extent all the parks do. For me, MGM is a one day a year park if I had to buy a MGM ticket, but since I have AP's I'll visit it more often....but not for a full day.

The only real attendance figure that matters is how many guest visit WDW now with AK as they did without it. The way Disney guards their numbers, this is probably impossible to determine, but if you just add up the total guests the three parks had then add total the four parks have, it's obvious more people are visiting a four park WDW rather then a three park WDW.

It is rumored/reported that WDW counts the first turnstile as the park that gets credit for annual attendance. Does anyone know if USF/IOA does the same thing ?

 

[All Aboard]

It is rumored/reported that WDW counts the first turnstile as the park that gets credit for annual attendance.

Yes, I've heard that many times. And, if it is the case, then it needs to be considered when comparing AK attendence with other parks, say, Epcot.

Consider these two examples.

A) The UPH or multiday park hopping family rises early and takes the bus to AK. They ride the safari, Dinosaur, see ITTBAB and take in the first show of FOTLK. At noon they figure they've seen the best of AK, they hop the bus and head to Epcot where they spend the next 8.5 hours of their day having lunch and dinner in two of the many, many restaurant options and also watching Reflections of Earth. In this analysis - AK attendance 4, Epcot 0.

B) Our same family rises and heads to Epcot where they ride M:S, TT, UoE, Spaceship Earth, Living with the Land and Figment. It's about 1:00 now and they'd rather skip the remainder of the park and have lunch at one of the snack stands at AK. They decide to head over to AK for the last 3.5 hours of its day. In this analysis - Epcot attendance 4, AK - 0.

Now, which do you think happens more frequently? Now, given your response, which park's (AK or Epcot) attendance figures fare more favorably in the park-hopping reality that is WDW?

 

[All Aboard]

But, if you look at the attendance difference between it and non-Disney parks within 10 or so miles, I don't think its attendance can be explained strictly by its location.

Scoop, you seem kind of stuck on the proximity - and that it includes the Universal parks. I'd argue that while USF/IOA certainly gains some from their location with respect to WDW, AK tickets are bundled with the other WDW parks, so AK benefits much more. I don't have any evidence, but I suspect that park hoppers combined with annual passes greatly outnumber the single day tickets sold at WDW. So, buying a ticket to Epcot or MK really means you've bought a ticket to AK as well (in most cases.)

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

Sure, some guests choose to go to DAK because it is onproperty

You missed the point... when folks bought their ticket to the Magic Kingdom and Epcot, DAK got paid for, in the bargain.

It's not the choice to drive that has to be overcome, families have to decide whether they want to go see how good IoA is for another couple hundred bucks, or go see if DAK is really as sucky a suckfest as has been alledged, for no extra charge.

It's the "another couple hundred bucks" that skews attendance numbers in DAK's favor.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"Now, which do you think happens more frequently? Now, given your response, which park's (AK or Epcot) attendance figures fare more favorably in the park-hopping reality that is WDW?"***

I know the point you're trying to make, but the attendance numbers at all the parks since AK opened doesn't support the theory that AK's figures are artifically high because it's the first park to open. If that were the case we'd have seen steep drops in at least Epcot & MGM. Those drops didn't occur. All three parks saw single digit drops, but it's impossible to determine how much of the drop was caused by AK and how much by the economy and other world events.

Last time the numbers were published, AK had nearly caught MGM for 4th place. If it passes MGM this year, is AK of the hook and MGM becomes the failure ?

 

[All Aboard]

Vike, why would one have to see drops in Epcot attendance for my point to be true?

I was trying to point out that AK's attendance is probably more reflective of the actual number of guests who enter the park than Epcot's is. Meaning, it's more likely that a guest will choose to go to AK before another park (even if it's only for a short time.)

In other words, if the number for AK is 6 million, then it's quite likely that 6 million guests entered AK and few more, since it is rarely the "second" park of the day.

However, if Epcot's number is 8 million, that's probably understated because many guests park hop to Epcot at mid- or later in the day.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Again, that doesn't mean its a sterling hit, but its nothing more than speculation to suggest that its high attendance figures are the result of being at Disney.

A Sterling hit? No! You are quite right! It is certainly no ‘STERLING HIT’!

OK! I can see we aren’t making much headway, so it’s time for a different way of thinking. A little outside the box, so to speak. Most people here, even you Scoop, play an occasional “WHAT IF” game. I usually don’t, but I thought of a doozy this time.

WHAT IF…

… We take AK and lift it, in it’s entirety, and transport it to the location that Sea World Currently occupies. Then we take Sea World, again in total, and move it into the space currently occupied by AK.

OK? Do you have the premise? Can you picture it?

NOW! Do the attendance numbers stay the same for both? Does Sea World’s attendance go up? Down? Stay the same? And the same questions for AK.

Now let’s do the same for IOA. What do you think? Is it still far down the attendance list, or does it go up because it now enjoys WDW proximity and ticket packages?

Come on Scoop. Be honest. How does this “WHAT IF” game play out?

 

[KNWVIKING]

.... I thought the point you were trying to make was that AK's numbers are artifially high for no other reason then because they are the first park to open.