Aggressive anti-rental email response from MS

Are we certain that this “buying/stripping/renting/selling” is actually taking place on a large scale? Because according to efficient market theory, the value of a loaded contract should equal (1) the value of a stripped contract, plus (2) the rental value of the points that have been stripped from the loaded contract. In this case there would be no arbitrage opportunity from buying, stripping, renting and selling; this would in theory be a breakeven series of transactions, but in practice, given frictional costs such as broker fees, advertising, and so on, probably a slight loss. Anyone engaged in this strategy would also be exposed to market movements between buying and selling. By far the more guaranteed money making strategy for companies like DVC Rental Store is to match renters with owners, charging the renters $24 per point and paying the owners $18 per point (for example).
The market isn’t efficient, probably because it is not large and diverse enough. Loaded contracts are significantly undervalued and stripped contracts are significantly overvalued. We know from at least anecdotal evidence and reports in the ROFR thread that DVC Resale Market holds a lot of contracts. You can also go right now and just look at DVC Resale Market versus other brokers like Fidelity and see that they have a **lot** more stripped contracts than other brokers. So do we know for certain that this is happening on a large scale? No. But there is a decent amount of anecdotal evidence that it is.

I agree with you though, transaction costs make the buying/stripping/renting/selling thing a bad idea, unless you are a company that does all of those things under one roof and, as such, are not subject to broker commissions, fees for escrow, closing costs, etc.
 
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Are we certain that this “buying/stripping/renting/selling” is actually taking place on a large scale? Because according to efficient market theory, the value of a loaded contract should equal (1) the value of a stripped contract, plus (2) the rental value of the points that have been stripped from the loaded contract. In this case there would be no arbitrage opportunity from buying, stripping, renting and selling; this would in theory be a breakeven series of transactions, but in practice, given frictional costs such as broker fees, advertising, and so on, probably a slight loss. Anyone engaged in this strategy would also be exposed to market movements between buying and selling. By far the more guaranteed money making strategy for companies like DVC Rental Store is to match renters with owners, charging the renters $24 per point and paying the owners $18 per point (for example).
The stripped value may only be based on the maintenance fees of the use year and not what the points rent for. So the seller just has to value in the amount of three years maintenance fees instead of the rental value of three years of points.
 
Again, I’m really not seeing any problem. I just checked availability for Dec 21 - Dec 26, so a Christmas trip which is the busiest time of year at WDW. And check-in is within 7 months so all resorts are bookable. Looking at all room types across all resorts, there is an absolute ton of availability. Which surprised me a bit based upon the stories of commercial renters supposedly grabbing all of the peak times with spec reservations to sell at a profit.
That's a very expensive points time of year - not as popular among members (or rental brokers, since it's so expensive).

Change your search to Dec 2-9 and see what you get. Almost every single WDW property has no full availability in any room category for those dates.
 
Big difference is Wyndamn would rather owners who can't use thier points just waste those points. They benefit if no one uses the room.

DVC wants those rooms used all the time - because those people are buying park tickets and spending money in the parks. And that is where the real daily profit potential of a DVC room resides for the Mouse.
Right. Non-DVC timeshares have a wide range, some are worth a whole lot, and some well, good luck selling. Right now, you can buy a dozen Wyndham contracts on eBay for $1. It's not a fair comparison to DVC. In other systems, you can for sure be unable to sell and stuck with points you can't use. You still paid your dues, which is what the manager wanted.

DVC is always worth money, even Vero. The comp is still a WDW hotel room, and even if prices cratered, there would still be a resale market. If DVC cracked down, owners would sell.
 


The market isn’t efficient, probably because it is not large and diverse enough. Loaded contracts are significantly undervalued and stripped contracts are significantly overvalued. We know from at least anecdotal evidence and reports in the ROFR thread that DVC Resale Market holds a lot of contracts. You can also go right now and just look at DVC Resale Market versus other brokers like Fidelity and see that they have a **lot** more stripped contracts than other brokers. So do we know for certain that this is happening on a large scale? No. But there is a decent amount of anecdotal evidence that it is.

I agree with you though, transaction costs make the buying/stripping/renting/selling thing a bad idea, unless you are a company that does all of those things under one roof and, as such, are not subject to broker commissions, fees for escrow, closing costs, etc.

Except buying, stripping and selling is not against the rules or the law and they can’t stop someone including a broker from doing it as many times as they want.

I just don’t think that a broker has so many LLCs that is happening to a scale that DVC needs to step in because if it was, they’d have changed the rules.

But then again, I don’t care who stays in a room and I want the flexibility of being able to spec book trips until I know who is going or give nights away to family and friends. I currently have 18 reservations on my account and not one is a rental.

This whole thread is based on one email from one MS CM who was responding to a request by an owner to give access to a company for a rental. Those optics alone triggered the response.

Even the notion that the DL race weekend was booked and now being rented doesn’t indicate it’s a large scale renter..could be someone who wanted to just rent out 2023 points to offset the purchase and knew that would be an easy trip to rent.

And, I am not saying there are not people out there, including brokers, who are not making a profit by renting a lot of reservations within the rules, but my guess is that Wyndham is a much bigger system that their “mega” renters were in a whole different league than those dealing in just DVC.
 
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That's a very expensive points time of year - not as popular among members (or rental brokers, since it's so expensive).

Change your search to Dec 2-9 and see what you get. Almost every single WDW property has no full availability in any room category for those dates.
Well in terms of renting 12/21-12/26 should be a high demand time of year for renting. It’s the busiest time of year for the Disney parks in general, the cash rooms are very expensive, so the renters should be in full force then.

12/2-12/8 is a slow time for Disney in general, the points are cheaper, it’s always been in high demand for DVC from what I understand, and I don’t see or understand how renters are involved here when the rest of Disneys cash bookings are lower/weaker then.

Renting demand probably with a high degree of certainty aligns with cash booking demand. I would think the first two weeks of December are because that’s when DVC owners want to go to maximize point usage not to rent. Also given those first two weeks have been popular and hard to get for years and you can search the board about people complaining about it for years.
 
Again, I’m really not seeing any problem. I just checked availability for Dec 21 - Dec 26, so a Christmas trip which is the busiest time of year at WDW. And check-in is within 7 months so all resorts are bookable. Looking at all room types across all resorts, there is an absolute ton of availability. Which surprised me a bit based upon the stories of commercial renters supposedly grabbing all of the peak times with spec reservations to sell at a profit.
There must be a ton of people out there walking reservations purely for the entertainment value then.
 


Except buying, stripping and selling is not against the rules or the law and they can’t stop someone including a broker from doing it as many times as they want.
Wyndham did. A number of years ago (can't recall but more than 5 or 6) Wyndham discovered that some owners (commercial renters) had many millions more in point reservations that actual points they owned. Many were buying contracts stripping them and then giving them back to Wyndham through their deed back program (but they could also sell them). Wyndham simply locked accounts to perform "audits". Many accounts were locked for months. Many people simply took buyout offers from Wyndham under an NDA and were done.

While stripping and selling isn't illegal, it can be a costly thing to litigate and these owners took the easy path of selling their contracts back to Wyndham and promising to no longer rent. While some DVC owners (commercial renters) could try to fight DVC if they took similar actions, it gets expensive. While the stripping and selling method may be legal, the rental of the points still undoubtedly falls under commercial use.
 
That's a very expensive points time of year - not as popular among members (or rental brokers, since it's so expensive).

Change your search to Dec 2-9 and see what you get. Almost every single WDW property has no full availability in any room category for those dates.
For Dec 2-9, SSR has wide open availability for 1 BR, 2 BR and Treehouse. Admittedly not as vast a selection as is available for Christmas week, but I would be delighted to be able to get anything at all for such a popular time, booking only 5 months out.
 
Why are we comparing this to $1 Wyndham timeshares? Totally different thing.

DVC doesn't care about renting. DVC made a rule so crazy that it is pretty much impossible to violate. I have a whole lot of points, and I can't manage to make 20 reservations in a year with many contracts. The "restriction" is ridiculously high so that almost no one violates it. For professionals, they just structure the ownership correctly, NBD.

If DVC wanted uncertainty, or actually wanted to stop point renting, they could have made the rule less reservations, or a vague rule or rules with names or all kinds of stuff that would spook the rental market. They haven't done that or even threatened that.

OP's email is very much rogue from DVC's position. DVC's position has been very loudly that they don't care and aren't going to stop this.
 
They aren't different. Fundamentally they are still timeshares. DVC has created resale restrictions that existed in the industry for decades. DVC understands they are timeshares, why don't DVC members? The functions of renting are identical.
A $1 timeshare is not comparable to DVC. In a system where you can't sell, you are stuck. You either keep paying dues for something you can't use or rent -- or get foreclosed. In DVC, you just sell.

Even with resale restrictions, RIV is still a room at WDW. It still has resale value.
 
I am not able to see how buying, stripping and reselling a contract is hurting the membership, nor do I see why DVD would care.

Renting does not hurt the membership as a whole, either. We forget the DVC does not care WHICH member booked the room. It only cares that the room has been booked.

Posters here are arguing about "fair" - how to allocate scarce resources. We will never agree on that.
Agreed. All owners have the exact same booking chance no matter who is staying in the room. DVC is sold to be 100% occupied. That in the early years people didn't necessarily feel as much of a need to book at 11 months was only a plus for that stretch of time.
 
Wyndham did. A number of years ago (can't recall but more than 5 or 6) Wyndham discovered that some owners (commercial renters) had many millions more in point reservations that actual points they owned. Many were buying contracts stripping them and then giving them back to Wyndham through their deed back program (but they could also sell them). Wyndham simply locked accounts to perform "audits". Many accounts were locked for months. Many people simply took buyout offers from Wyndham under an NDA and were done.

While stripping and selling isn't illegal, it can be a costly thing to litigate and these owners took the easy path of selling their contracts back to Wyndham and promising to no longer rent. While some DVC owners (commercial renters) could try to fight DVC if they took similar actions, it gets expensive. While the stripping and selling method may be legal, the rental of the points still undoubtedly falls under commercial use.

I don’t know enough about Wyndham but our POS says we can sell as long as we give DVD at least 30 days for ROFR. After that, it can close.

So, no, DVD can’t hold up any sale because after the mandatory ROFR period, DVD isn’t involved.

If they want to impede things, they can ROFR but they don’t and would certainly be aware of the buying and selling

DVD doesn’t have a buyback program either so that could be what allowed Wyndham to hold up that type of sale.

It would be interesting if people have specifics as to how they know that these things are occurring large scale.

I do know there are more spec rentals being done and encourages by brokers.
 
If a member is renting and the revenue covers their dues, I am fine with that. Anything above that is profit and to me making a profit means they have a business.

Worse though to me is speculative booking that do not get rented and then cancelled at 31 days out, too late for anyone that needs to plan ahead and most likely will go to Disney for them to sell for cash. The memberships loses out on those.

As to does DVC care, yes I think they do. Do they monitor it, of course they do. Disney monitors everything including social media. Will they make changes, who knows. If they do it will be to benefit them and I am fine with that. We don't rent. I do book stays for friends, but I give them away.
 
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Some comments to a number of points that have been raised (long):

A . The Commercial Purpose Clause

It appears that some believe the “commercial purpose” restriction can mean DVC can prohibit any rentals or, alternatively, DVC could adopt some new, severe restrictions on rentals such as allowing only a couple per year. Those suggestions do not comply with the terms of POS documents or DVC’s own understanding of them. Moreover, to do what is suggested would actually be improper because of Florida’s highly favorable laws on the protection of rights to rent condominiums and vacation units, including timeshares. (References to POS documents herein are to the BWV POS documents.)

One needs to begin by first reading the “Personal Use” restriction in the POS that also contains the commercial purpose language. (Declarations, Article 12.1.) The first sentence is the actual definition of Personal Use and all it says is that the vacation homes “shall be occupied only as vacation accomodations.” The next sentence says that “use of the accomodations and recreational facilities is limited solely to the personal use of Owners, their lessees, guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a Unit.” That clause recognizes member’s lessees (renters) can personally use the rooms and recreational facilities.

The next sentence, which many are apparently focusing on, provides that “use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purpose other than personal use described herein is expressly prohibited.” That sentence is not even talking about rentals; it is simply declaring that the vacation homes and recreational facilities cannot be physically used for any commercial purpose, i.e., it is addressing actual on-site use of the property. Consistent with that clause is that the POS has many terms concerning “Commercial Units,” which are portions of the building that are not Vacation Units or recreational facilities but instead those designated for use by businesses. Moreover, the Master Declaration of Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions (Article VII) declares that property on the site that is not designated for use as “part of a Condominium or as part of the Timeshare Plan” can be designated for use for a “commercial purpose,” again recognizing that “commercial purpose” is referring to actual use of the property on site.

The Personal Use restriction then has the sentence that declares “commercial purpose” includes a “pattern of rental activity” that the association could reasonably conclude “constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.” What that is doing is simply adding to the meaning of commercial purpose something it otherwise does not refer to in the previous sentence, and it provides the only rental restriction that exists on the possible number of times one can rent. In other words, there is no attempt in the POS to prevent rentals, to declare that only a low or small number of rentals are allowed, or that “commercial” can mean doing any rental for profit. Also, the reference to “commercial enterprise” indicates what was intended. “Commercial enterprise” is a legal term used in statutes and codes and its accepted meaning is an entity or person that is in the business of doing something, at least part of which is to earn profits, e.g., it is not simply a member doing some rentals to cover some dues or use up points that he cannot personally use in a given year.

Other terms of the POS are consistent with that meaning. The Product Understanding Checklist I received for BWV purchases expressly declares that the member has a right to rent.

The DVC Membership Agreement included with the POS states that a “Club Member may make a reservation to use the Vacation Homes for the Club Member’s own use, make their use available to family or friends or guests, or rent them,” thus defeating any suggestion made that rental can only occur with relatives or friends. “Personal Use” is again defined in the Condominium Rules and Regulations as occupying Vacation Homes “only as vacation accomodations” by the owner, the owner’s cotenants, lessees or guests, i.e., “personal use” is referring to occupancy of a room when one is using it and does not mean one is prohibited from profiting from a rental.

Disney itself has recognized that violation of the commercial purpose clause requires a lot more than a member just doing some rentals. During the mid-2000’s, when dealing with the problem of members being in the business of doing rentals. DVC created three new rules: (a) it adopted the single transfer per use year rule (which had actually been the original transfer rule until 2003, when it was changed to allowing unlimited transfers either in or out of a membership, but not both); (b) it limited the number of associate memberships a person could have to four – members in the business of renting where using the unlimited transfer rule, and the ability to become associate members on many accounts to make reservations in those accounts, as a means to greatly increase the number of points they could control to make rentals; and (c) DVC adopted the 20 reservation rule which created a presumption of a commercial purpose violation if a member made more than 20 reservations in any given 12 month period, a presumption that could be defeated by showing the reservations were for personal use (which term itself allowed rentals). That rule itself was a recognition by DVC that the commercial purpose restriction could not be interpreted to mean rentals were prohibited or the number of rentals had to be low, i.e., DVC recognized its restriction was designed to prevent members from being in the business of renting, and was not designed to prevent members from doing some rentals to do such things as recover dues costs or use points whenb the meber could not use them for his own trips.

B. Creating New Restrictions

Suggestions are made that Disney should set limits (low) to the number of rentals a member can make, or adopt other new provisions limiting rentals. Though DVD can amend provisions without member approval under the POS, it expressly cannot do any such amendment that “would prejudice or impair to any material extent the rights of any Owner,” (Declarations, Art. XVI, sec 16.2). Florida considers the right to rent to be fundamental, to the extent that it has created laws prohibiting local government entities from creating ordinances that would prevent vacation type rooms and homes from being rented. Moreover, it has also shown that it expressly considers the right to rent to be something that cannot be easily taken away or modified. Under its condominium law – which applies to the DVC timeshares, DVD/DVC cannot change or modify the rental terms in the POS to make them more restrictive without an actual vote of the members, and all those members who vote against the new rules will not have to follow them even if passed by the required percentage of members voting in its favor . Fla. Stats. Sec. 718.110(13).

There are some limitations that already exist that negatively affect the ability to rent, although many members may not be following them. The Home Resort Rules and Regulations provide that a member cannot transfer points to another for any compensation, and thus one cannot purchase points from another to increase points that could be used for a rental. They also provide that banked points cannot be used for rentals. Also, members who join together to make reservations cannot, as a group, exceed ownership and control of more total points than allowed for a single member (currently 8,000). Another limitation is something I believe many have been ignoring. I see much discussion by members who are renting about the need to declare rental income as part of federal tax returns. I have seen very little mention about a different tax issue. If you rent your DVC interest, you must, in Florida, pay the state sales tax (6.5%) and the local transient rental tax (another 6%) on the total rental proceeds you receive. My guess is many are not paying that, but they should be because eventually that could lead to claims for back taxes and penalties.

One suggestion made above that I seriously doubt can be done is for DVC to demand that the rental agencies provide information on its rentals including the identity of the members and the rentals made. Those agencies act as go-betweens who find persons to rent from the members. They have no contracts with DVD/DVC. The ones I am aware of, contrary to what some apparently believe, do not own a lot of points that they rent and thus could be required to provide information on those. Using their own points to make a lot of reservations is something agencies stopped doing after the adoption of the 20 reservation presumption. DVD/DVC simply have no legal grounds to sue the agencies for information or to stop them from providing agency service to members.

C. The Listing of Reservations For Rental with Rental Agencies and in Facebook

Much has been said about the large number of reservations listed for rental with rental agencies and elsewhere such as Facebook. There are likely some professional renters involved with some of those listings, but I question whether it is a major problem.

For example, someone pointed out in this thread that there were a lot BCV reservations on a site and concluded there was thus a serious issue involving professional renters. However, BCV does not have an 11-month issue where reservations for studios (or other rooms) fill right at 11-months out, i.e., despite the BCV rental listings, members can usually reserve BCV as long as they do not wait too long past the 11-month window. A few months ago someone mentioned the issue of rentals of already made reservations in relation to the DVC Rental Store. I actually went through the 585 rental listings that existed at the time on the Store’s site. The reservations covered an entire 11-month period. There were large numbers of reservations -- including at SSR, OKW, AKV Kidani, and Poly -- that were typically readily available to members at 7-months out and most of the others did not involve rooms and times with an 11-month issue where the rooms disappear quickly right at 11-months out. The total number of questionable reservations I found that actually involved rooms and times that disappear right at 11-months out was 16 out of 585. My sense is that the number of those was low because the professional renters would have the same problem getting them at 11-months out as other members.

That is just one look at the issue at one point in time for only one rental agency so I cannot definitely conclude it is only a minor problem. But we should not conclude that there is a significant professional renter problem simply because there are a lot of listings. Nevertheless, I would agree that if you have professional renters that are continuously “buying/stripping/renting/selling “ and doing mostly rentals while managing to avoid the 20 reservation issue with any single membership, that the member is likely violating the pattern of rental activity clause, although I do question whether that kind of activity can actually be financially beneficial.

An issue is what can be done about it if it is a real problem. One solution that cannot be adopted is the Wyndham solution to rentals. Wyndham created its own problem by having no maximum to the number of points a member could own, with the result that there were many members with a huge number of points (8,000,000 in one situation) making reservations for hard to get times and rooms and then renting the reservations. Members could make reservations for themselves, friends, relatives, and others. The Wyndham solution was to adopt a rule that said any reservation made that was not for the member personally could later be canceled in favor of another reservation for a member if availability otherwise did not exist. For example, if a member made a reservation well in advance as a present for his daughter on her wedding, the member and daughter could learn as late as the day of the wedding – the day before the trip to a Wyndham resort – that the reservation was cancelled in favor of another member. Fortunately, no rule like that can possibly be made with DVC because its POS clearly provides that all reservations are on a first come first served basis and DVC cannot cancel someone’s reservation to favor another.

Solutions suggesting more strict restrictions on the ability to rent have the legal issues I mentioned above, and anything created will most likely have adverse effects not just on rentals but members in general, e.g., lowering the 20-reservation presumption to 10 reservations would most likely adversely effect a large number of member’s who make ten or more reservations in a year’s period and never rent. The problem DVC has is the lack of information on whether reservations made by members are rentals and thus lacks the ability to track rentals by a member and determine whether a member is acting as a commercial enterprise. There may be no easy solution, but one possibility I thought of, but have not researched enough to determine if DVC could actually do it, is for DVC to simply adopt a rule requiring the member to provide a form that verifies whether a reservation is or is not a rental. That would give DVC information that it could collect on any given member and make evaluations as to whether there may be a violation of the pattern clause. A member could, of course, lie but discovery of the lie could itself have ramifications.

An alternative that would also provide the ability to track rental information per member is to adopt a rule requiring a member to provide a copy of the written rental agreement signed by the parties to the rental if there is a rental. Article XIII, sec. 13.2, of the declarations provides that all rentals require written agreements and have terms requiring the renter to use the Vacation Home only as allowed in the declarations. DVC could require a copy of the agreement be provided by the member to allow it to confirm the agreement meets the requirements in the declarations.
 
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A $1 timeshare is not comparable to DVC. In a system where you can't sell, you are stuck. You either keep paying dues for something you can't use or rent -- or get foreclosed. In DVC, you just sell.

Even with resale restrictions, RIV is still a room at WDW. It still has resale value.
It isn't like Wyndham timeshares can't be given away. They do have value, even if it is $1. Wyndham also has a deed back program. So no, you aren't stuck. The mechanics of renting and the players are pretty much the same, just with different names. You have brokers, you have individual one off renters, and you have large point owners that rent. You buy it for $1 and sell it for $1 or buy it for $20,000 and sell it for $20,000, it doesn't matter. The resale value doesn't impact the rental market to any significant degree.
 
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I don’t know enough about Wyndham but our POS says we can sell as long as we give DVD at least 30 days for ROFR. After that, it can close.

So, no, DVD can’t hold up any sale because after the mandatory ROFR period, DVD isn’t involved.

If they want to impede things, they can ROFR but they don’t and would certainly be aware of the buying and selling

DVD doesn’t have a buyback program either so that could be what allowed Wyndham to hold up that type of sale.

It would be interesting if people have specifics as to how they know that these things are occurring large scale.

I do know there are more spec rentals being done and encourages by brokers.
Who said anything about holding up a sale? Accounts were locked from making reservations or adding guest certificates. As far as I know, no sales were held up.
 
Some comments to a number of points that have been raised (long):

A . The Commercial Purpose Clause

It appears that some believe the “commercial purpose” restriction can mean DVC can prohibit any rentals or, alternatively, DVC could adopt some new, severe restrictions on rentals such as allowing only a couple per year. Those suggestions do not comply with the terms of POS documents or DVC’s own understanding of them. Moreover, to do what is suggested would actually be improper because of Florida’s highly favorable laws on the protection of rights to rent condominiums and vacation units, including timeshares. (References to POS documents herein are to the BWV POS documents.)

One needs to begin by first reading the “Personal Use” restriction in the POS that also contains the commercial purpose language. (Declarations, Article 12.1.) The first sentence is the actual definition of Personal Use and all it says is that the vacation homes “shall be occupied only as vacation accomodations.” The next sentence says that “use of the accomodations and recreational facilities is limited solely to the personal use of Owners, their lessees, guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a Unit.” That clause recognizes member’s lessees (renters) can personally use the rooms and recreational facilities.

The next sentence, which many are apparently focusing on, provides that “use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purpose other than personal use described herein is expressly prohibited.” That sentence is not even talking about rentals; it is simply declaring that the vacation homes and recreational facilities cannot be physically used for any commercial purpose, i.e., it is addressing actual on-site use of the property. Consistent with that clause is that the POS has many terms concerning “Commercial Units,” which are portions of the building that are not Vacation Units or recreational facilities but instead those designated for use by businesses. Moreover, the Master Declaration of Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions (Article VII) declares that property on the site that is not designated for use as “part of a Condominium or as part of the Timeshare Plan” can be designated for use for a “commercial purpose,” again recognizing that “commercial purpose” is referring to actual use of the property on site.

The Personal Use restriction then has the sentence that declares “commercial purpose” includes a “pattern of rental activity” that the association could reasonably conclude “constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.” What that is doing is simply adding to the meaning of commercial purpose something it otherwise does not refer to in the previous sentence, and it provides the only rental restriction that exists on the possible number of times one can rent. In other words, there is no attempt in the POS to prevent rentals, to declare that only a low or small number of rentals are allowed, or that “commercial” can mean doing any rental for profit. Also, the reference to “commercial enterprise” indicates what was intended. “Commercial enterprise” is a legal term used in statutes and codes and its accepted meaning is an entity or person that is in the business of doing something, at least part of which is to earn profits, e.g., it is not simply a member doing some rentals to cover some dues or use up points that he cannot personally use in a given year.

Other terms of the POS are consistent with that meaning. The Product Understanding Checklist I received for BWV purchases expressly declares that the member has a right to rent.

The DVC Membership Agreement included with the POS states that a “Club Member may make a reservation to use the Vacation Homes for the Club Member’s own use, make their use available to family or friends or guests, or rent them,” thus defeating any suggestion made that rental can only occur with relatives or friends. “Personal Use” is again defined in the Condominium Rules and Regulations as occupying Vacation Homes “only as vacation accomodations” by the owner, the owner’s cotenants, lessees or guests, i.e., “personal use” is referring to occupancy of a room when one is using it and does not mean one is prohibited from profiting from a rental.

Disney itself has recognized that violation of the commercial purpose clause requires a lot more than a member just doing some rentals. During the mid-2000’s, when dealing with the problem of members being in the business of doing rentals. DVC created three new rules: (a) it adopted the single transfer per use year rule (which had actually been the original transfer rule until 2003, when it was changed to allowing unlimited transfers either in or out of a membership, but not both); (b) it limited the number of associate memberships a person could have to four – members in the business of renting where using the unlimited transfer rule, and the ability to become associate members on many accounts to make reservations in those accounts, as a means to greatly increase the number of points they could control to make rentals; and (c) DVC adopted the 20 reservation rule which created a presumption of a commercial purpose violation if a member made more than 20 reservations in any given 12 month period, a presumption that could be defeated by showing the reservations were for personal use (which term itself allowed rentals). That rule itself was a recognition by DVC that the commercial purpose restriction could not be interpreted to mean rentals were prohibited or the number of rentals had to be low, i.e., DVC recognized its restriction was designed to prevent members from being in the business of renting, and was not designed to prevent members from doing some rentals to do such things as recover dues costs or use points whenb the meber could not use them for his own trips.

B. Creating New Restrictions

Suggestions are made that Disney should set limits (low) to the number of rentals a member can make, or adopt other new provisions limiting rentals. Though DVD can amend provisions without member approval under the POS, it expressly cannot do any such amendment that “would prejudice or impair to any material extent the rights of any Owner,” (Declarations, Art. XVI, sec 16.2). Florida considers the right to rent to be fundamental, to the extent that it has created laws prohibiting local government entities from creating ordinances that would prevent vacation type rooms and homes from being rented. Moreover, it has also shown that it expressly considers the right to rent to be something that cannot be easily taken away or modified. Under its condominium law – which applies to the DVC timeshares, DVD/DVC cannot change or modify the rental terms in the POS to make them more restrictive without an actual vote of the members, and all those members who vote against the new rules will not have to follow them even if passed by the required percentage of members voting in its favor . Fla. Stats. Sec. 718.110(13).

There are some limitations that already exist that negatively affect the ability to rent, although many members may not be following them. The Home Resort Rules and Regulations provide that a member cannot transfer points to another for any compensation, and thus one cannot purchase points from another to increase points that could be used for a rental. They also provide that banked points cannot be used for rentals. Also, members who join together to make reservations cannot, as a group, exceed ownership and control of more total points than allowed for a single member (currently 8,000). Another limitation is something I believe many have been ignoring. I see much discussion by members who are renting about the need to declare rental income as part of federal tax returns. I have seen very little mention about a different tax issue. If you rent your DVC interest, you must, in Florida, pay the state sales tax (6.5%) and the local transient rental tax (another 6%) on the total rental proceeds you receive. My guess is many are not paying that, but they should be because eventually that could lead to claims for back taxes and penalties.

One suggestion made above that I seriously doubt can be done is for DVC to demand that the rental agencies provide information on its rentals including the identity of the members and the rentals made. Those agencies act as go-betweens who find persons to rent from the members. They have no contracts with DVD/DVC. The ones I am aware of, contrary to what some apparently believe, do not own a lot of points that they rent and thus could be required to provide information on those. Using their own points to make a lot of reservations is something agencies stopped doing after the adoption of the 20 reservation presumption. DVD/DVC simply have no legal grounds to sue the agencies for information or to stop them from providing agency service to members.

C. The Listing of Reservations For Rental with Rental Agencies and in Facebook

Much has been said about the large number of reservations listed for rental with rental agencies and elsewhere such as Facebook. There are likely some professional renters involved with some of those listings, but I question whether it is a major problem.

For example, someone pointed out in this thread that there were a lot BCV reservations on a site and concluded there was thus a serious issue involving professional renters. However, BCV does not have an 11-month issue where reservations for studios (or other rooms) fill right at 11-months out, i.e., despite the BCV rental listings, members can usually reserve BCV as long as they do not wait too long past the 11-month window. A few months ago someone mentioned the issue of rentals of already made reservations in relation to the DVC Rental Store. I actually went through the 585 rental listings that existed at the time on the Store’s site. The reservations covered an entire 11-month period. There were large numbers of reservations -- including at SSR, OKW, AKV Kidani, and Poly -- that were typically readily available to members at 7-months out and most of the others did not involve rooms and times with an 11-month issue where the rooms disappear quickly right at 11-months out. The total number of questionable reservations I found that actually involved rooms and times that disappear right at 11-months out was 16 out of 585. My sense is that the number of those was low because the professional renters would have the same problem getting them at 11-months out as other members.

That is just one look at the issue at one point in time for only one rental agency so I cannot definitely conclude it is only a minor problem. But we should not conclude that there is a significant professional renter problem simply because there are a lot of listings. Nevertheless, I would agree that if you have professional renters that are continuously “buying/stripping/renting/selling “ and doing mostly rentals while managing to avoid the 20 reservation issue with any single membership, that the member is likely violating the pattern of rental activity clause, although I do question whether that kind of activity can actually be financially beneficial.

An issue is what can be done about it if it is a real problem. One solution that cannot be adopted is the Wyndham solution to rentals. Wyndham created its own problem by having no maximum to the number of points a member could own, with the result that there were many members with a huge number of points (8,000,000 in one situation) making reservations for hard to get times and rooms and then renting the reservations. Members could make reservations for themselves, friends, relatives, and others. The Wyndham solution was to adopt a rule that said any reservation made that was not for the member personally could later be canceled in favor of another reservation for a member if availability otherwise did not exist. For example, if a member made a reservation well in advance as a present for his daughter on her wedding, the member and daughter could learn as late as the day of the wedding – the day before the trip to a Wyndham resort – that the reservation was cancelled in favor of another member. Fortunately, no rule like that can possibly be made with DVC because its POS clearly provides that all reservations are on a first come first served basis and DVC cannot cancel someone’s reservation to favor another.

Solutions suggesting more strict restrictions on the ability to rent have the legal issues I mentioned above, and anything created will most likely have adverse effects not just on rentals but members in general, e.g., lowering the 20-reservation presumption to 10 reservations would most likely adversely effect a large number of member’s who make ten or more reservations in a year’s period and never rent. The problem DVC has is the lack of information on whether reservations made by members are rentals and thus lacks the ability to track rentals by a member and determine whether a member is acting as a commercial enterprise. There may be no easy solution, but one possibility I thought of, but have not researched enough to determine if DVC could actually do it, is for DVC to simply adopt a rule requiring the member to provide a form that verifies whether a reservation is or is not a rental. That would give DVC information that it could collect on any given member and make evaluations as to whether there may be a violation of the pattern clause. A member could, of course, lie but discovery of the lie could itself have ramifications.

An alternative that would also provide the ability to track rental information per member is to adopt a rule requiring a member to provide a copy of the written rental agreement signed by the parties to the rental if there is a rental. Article XIII, sec. 13.2, of the declarations provides that all rentals require written agreements and have terms requiring the renter to use the Vacation Home only as allowed in the declarations. DVC could require a copy of the agreement be provided by the member to allow it to confirm the agreement meets the requirements in the declarations.
The problem is dvc has sent letters to owners saying that commercial is anything rented over the internet. That includes almost all rentals— except for the sometimes renter who rents to people they know or to acquaintances. So yes, DVC seems to be okay with people who rent once in a while, but not people who rent on a regular basis (“a pattern of rental behavior.”). Everything in the contract ultimately says that Disney can decide what commercial activity is, and, as stated in the letter, Disney is taking a hard line.
 
The problem is dvc has sent letters to owners saying that commercial is anything rented over the internet. That includes almost all rentals— except for the sometimes renter who rents to people they know or to acquaintances. So yes, DVC seems to be okay with people who rent once in a while, but not people who rent on a regular basis (“a pattern of rental behavior.”). Everything in the contract ultimately says that Disney can decide what commercial activity is, and, as stated in the letter, Disney is taking a hard line.
Wait letter or letters? So far I have only seen this thread and the Facebook thread (which was referring to this thread). A lower level employee at a call/operations center would certainly not be delivering this message.

This message would be coming from the legal and compliance department at DVCMC and be addressed to the entire membership at large. It seems this thread was triggered by a mistake made at DVCMC being asked to assist in a rental through the verification process, something the POS very explicitly prohibits, could be likely this request simply triggered an employee trying to respond to say that wasn’t allowed but expressed it incorrectly.

Also I guarantee you 100% this entire thread will eventually get back to them. I know for certain they monitor the DVC section of disboards from prior communication with them, told directly so from pretty high up. So time will tell if we get a letter or not.
 

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