After dozens of deaths, drop-side cribs outlawed

It's not strange logic to say we used them and we survived, people say that about lots of things all the time. I just find it so interesting that kids survived childhood before the last 15 or so years. I grew up in the 60s and 70s and we didn't wear helmets or wrist guards or anything. The worst thing that ever happened to anyone I knew was a broken bone. And we all slept in cribs with slats that were too far apart yet my parents never knew any child who died in one.

My boys are 24 and 27 and I used a drop side crib that I still have. And I never knew any baby or child harmed by one of them. You hear these statistics and yet rarely does anyone know anyone that it happened to. A lot of these recalls come purely out of fear of litigation. Nothing in life is entirely safe and I hate to tell people but we could wrap everything and every child in bubble wrap and yet something would still happen to some of them. We live in a world where manufacturers have to actually tell people not to use hair dryers in the bathtub, so I wonder what's next.

There will never, ever be a zero injury or death rate due to accidents. That's just life.

But it is strange logic because you are only going on your personal experience. If you google childhood deaths due to not wearing a helmet, you will find it was far more common than you probably think.

Using your personal example logic, I knew a little girl in my neighborhood who died about 25 years ago because she fell off her bike, hit her head, and died of massive brain injury. Another child in my neighborhood was killed 35 years ago by going through the windshield in a car accident. And, no, of course she wasn't wearing a seatbelt. Neither of these deaths was due to bad parenting or negligence. I would say both were the result of lac of information about safety-information that we take for granted now.
 
It seems like the problems caused in recent years is that they started making the drop-side attachment pieces out of plastic-rather than metal. My crib was made in 1992, and the drop-side is attached with metal rods and brackets-I don't think it could possibly break or bend. The rods go the whole length of the side so it's not like it could come off partially. This was not even an expensive crib. I used it through 5 kids and I still have it.

The newer cribs I have seen all have a little plastic bracket for the drop side. I could see how they could break. If I was buying a new crib today, I wouldn't want the plastic parts one-I'd go with a fixed side. But being short, I did love my drop side!
 
Here's what I find ridiculous...

There were well over 43,000,000 babies born over the past decade and because of 30 deaths, they are issuing a recall.
 
Here's what I find ridiculous...

There were well over 43,000,000 babies born over the past decade and because of 30 deaths, they are issuing a recall.
I have to agree with you.

If my kids were still in a crib, I wouldn't be running out to buy a new one. We had a very nice sturdy crib and I never worried about the possibility of it falling apart.
 

I don't know, but I've had sleeping babies wake up while I've been in the shower, etc. I've also been awakened by the delighted (and not so delighted) screams of a baby/toddler in the wee hours of the morning (or middle of the night) who is also standing and holding onto the crib railing and jumping up and down ... Kids are unpredictable.
Yes, but we are talking about repeated jumping, running ect the leadsto a faliure of the dropside hardware. I always went to DD immediately in cases like you describe, and if I was going to shower and was the only person in the house she went with me in the baby seat as an infant, or in an EMPTY pack and play as a toddler. She was ALWAYS where I could hear her while showering, andstick my head out to check when needed. I NEVER left her in the crib when I couldn't hear her. Like another PP, I moved DD out of the crib at about 18 months to a toddler bed, becuase it was just too dangerous to leave her longer.
 
I have to say, I'm a bit under-whelmed by this.

First reason:

30 deaths and 14 suspected deaths in a decade. A decade. They're measuring way back to when Clinton was still president. Taking into consideration all the babies born in the last decade, that's not very many deaths.

Yes, yes, I know . . . even one is too many.

But here's the thing: Everything we do has risk. Everyone in my family rode in a car today. We ate food bought at the grocery store and food prepared by other people. We came in contact with various cleaning chemicals. Some of those things could've hurt us. Some of those things could turn out to be dangerous in the future.

We cannot be 100% protected. At what point do we draw the line between an acceptable risk vs. one that's just too much?

I had a drop-side crib, and I never had any problem with it. Since I'm very short, if I'd been forced to have a "no drop" crib, I'd have been forced to keep a stepping stool by the crib. Which would've been more dangerous? Using a drop-side crib, or me stepping up (sometimes sleepy, sometimes in the dark) on that stool every time I went to the crib with the baby in my arms?

Second reason:

Some people are idiots. Some of those idiots are parents. It'd be interesting to see how many of those cribs were put together wrong, were being used in spite of being damaged, or could otherwise be attributed to "operator error". Have you see the statistics on how many parents install their car seats incorrectly? Why should we assume people are any better at putting together their cribs?

Right On! :thumbsup2

Here's what I find ridiculous...

There were well over 43,000,000 babies born over the past decade and because of 30 deaths, they are issuing a recall.

Not a just recall, a total ban. Thats ridiculous
 
Brava Purseval, MrsPete, and cassandra!

Rampant innumeracy in this nation is a far greater risk to our society.
 
/
Since I'm very short, if I'd been forced to have a "no drop" crib, I'd have been forced to keep a stepping stool by the crib. Which would've been more dangerous? Using a drop-side crib, or me stepping up (sometimes sleepy, sometimes in the dark) on that stool every time I went to the crib with the baby in my arms?

The non-drop side cribs are lower, check them out. We had one and loved it and I'm 5'1" on a good day and I didn't have to use a step stool.

As far as the "we lived through it" thing...when I was a kid there were a pair of twin girls a grade lower than me. One was in a wheelchair and one was not. They had been in a car accident where one was in a car seat, but the other was on a parent's lap in the front...completely legal at the time, thinking about it now I'm sure the carseat was purchased because there were two of them and they couldn't both be held. Anyway, their story was enough for me to always take child safety seriously as a parent, even if it is a one in a million thing.
 
I still think it is a much more savvy move to just ban the production of this style crib rather than waste time, money and resources continually testing and recalling them when the accident rates reach an unsafe level (according to the CPSC.)

As to those who want to compare numbers, that seems to suggest that the only worthwhile issue to pursue is the one that is the greatest threat to children.

My kids don't live in a bubble (my 4 year old goes snow skiing, 8 year is in gymnastics), but I'm glad that my state has a helmet law, safer carseats exist and there is a greater interest in using safe materials in products for children. If that makes me an alarmist, I think I'm ok with that.
 
I love people who ask for numbers without showing any of their own :laughing:

Here you go:

http://www.childdeathreview.org/nationalchildmortalitydata.htm

and another:

http://www.disastercenter.com/cdc/111riskb.html

follow it back as many years as you like but notice homicide always makes the list while lead paint at best might be a subcategory of poisoning but not statistically significant enough to receive a listing of its own. Car seats can only be cited using anecdotal evidence as in X children died in car crashes this year and Y died this year so that's a tougher cite.

Speaking of anecdotal evidence, here are 2 simple Google searches. The first one is for "baby dies in crib" it comes out with over 500.000 hits. Big number. If you read a few pages, though, you will se that many of the hits are about the crib recall.

http://www.google.com/search?q=baby+dies+in+crib&hl=en&source=hp&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

The second search is "charged in baby's death". That has over 15 million hits. Read it and weep.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...+baby's+death&aq=f&aqi=g-m1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

If those stats aren't good enough for you then you can cite the number of kids who died from lead paint ingestion and we'll take it from there.

what would I provide numbers for? I didn't make any unfounded statements :laughing:
Thanks for the links, unfortunately, neither one does what I asked, to show deaths pre legislation...one only goes back to 2002, the other to 1996 :rotfl: good try though

nice for you to specifically say lead paint, since the biggest risk is brain damage, not death - but go ahead and try again to provide a link that more children died by the hand of their parent than being unsecured in a car before laws requiring their use
 
what would I provide numbers for? I didn't make any unfounded statements :laughing:

No, you just made ridiculous ones that you couldn't possibly begin to back up, which justifies the bluster about the numbers as if the year-to year changes are going to be so dramatic as to make them unworthy for your attention.
Thanks for the links, unfortunately, neither one does what I asked, to show deaths pre legislation...one only goes back to 2002, the other to 1996 :rotfl: good try though

Until you can come up with something better that makes those numbers irrelevant to anyone not desperately trying to make their weak case stronger they'll do.
nice for you to specifically say lead paint,

puseveal, please cite your sources that show a child was more likely to be murdered by a parent than die from any of the examples before legislation was taken to protect children (required car seats, no lead in paint, etc.)
:rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2:

since the biggest risk is brain damage, not death - but go ahead and try again to provide a link that more children died by the hand of their parent than being unsecured in a car before laws requiring their use

I've done my part. Homicide has always been a leading cause of childhood death, which is probably why every state has a Child Protective Services and not a Crib Protective Services Division.

As previously stated, I've provided multiple links showing homicide as a leading cause of childhood death. When you come up with one disputing it or showing lack of seat belt use, lead paint or killer cribs to be a bigger problem then we'll take it from there.
 
I think that a major cottage industry will spring up modifying fixed cribs to have drop-sides, or modifying sliding drop-sides so that they cannot horizontally swing out.

All you need is a router and couple of bolts with lock-nuts on them. (If the riser pin goes all the way through the crib uprights rather than riding on a rail, then there is no way that a child can shake it loose if it has a locking bolt on it.) Give me my router and $6 worth of hardware and I can fix any crib that has the problem.

I also predict the return of an old design that used to be used in hospitals: the hinged-side. The design went out because kids fingers used to get caught in the piano hinge when someone went to close it, but if a hinge-guard was added it would be fine. That style is often custom-built right now for parents who use wheelchairs -- a friend of mine had one altered that way because her DH is a paraplegic.
 
No, you just made ridiculous ones that you couldn't possibly begin to back up, which justifies the bluster about the numbers as if the year-to year changes are going to be so dramatic as to make them unworthy for your attention.


Until you can come up with something better that makes those numbers irrelevant to anyone not desperately trying to make their weak case stronger they'll do.


puseveal, please cite your sources that show a child was more likely to be murdered by a parent than die from any of the examples before legislation was taken to protect children (required car seats, no lead in paint, etc.)
:rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2:



I've done my part. Homicide has always been a leading cause of childhood death, which is probably why every state has a Child Protective Services and not a Crib Protective Services Division.

As previously stated, I've provided multiple links showing homicide as a leading cause of childhood death. When you come up with one disputing it or showing lack of seat belt use, lead paint or killer cribs to be a bigger problem then we'll take it from there.


soooooooooooooo, does that all boil down to you made a statement you can't back up with fact? You could have said that in one sentence :rotfl:

"homicide" does not in any way, shape, or form, indicate that the death was caused by the parent.
keep trying though, this is entertaining

ETA - BTW, what are my "ridiculous" statements I couldn't begin to back up? I posted one sentence of my opinion
 
Here are some facts for you on child homicides...basically 60% by the parents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_murder


In 2008, there were 1,494 child (under 18 years) homicides in the United States.

of murdered American children younger than five years old, 61% were murdered by their parents (30% murdered by mothers, and 31% by fathers); homicide was the fourth leading cause of death amongst American preschool-aged children, and the third leading cause of death amongst American children five to fourteen years old.
 
Brava Purseval, MrsPete, and cassandra!

Rampant innumeracy in this nation is a far greater risk to our society.

And the complete inability to weigh risk.

I agree Mrs. Pete. The risk of people falling off their step stool while holding their baby because they can't get into the crib has been increased.
 
"homicide" does not in any way, shape, or form, indicate that the death was caused by the parent.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/187239.pdf

This presentation will focus on data obtained from the National Violent Death Reporting System (NVDRS) that was used to illuminate the circumstances related to homicide among children aged 4 years or less, and to identify demographic groups which may be at increased risk. Standard statistical tests were conducted to determine homicide rates among children aged 4 years or less, and to investigate infant/child homicide rates by race, gender, and other relevant circumstances. We fit a Poisson regression model to the sample data to investigate the multivariate relationship between infant/child homicide and available demographic information. Our findings indicate that Whites were 0.29 times as likely to be victims as African Americans, and females were 0.86 times as likely as males. Perpetrators were commonly parents / caregivers.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/162/9/1578

Among children under age 5 years in the United States who were murdered in the last quarter of the 20th century, 61% were killed by their own parents: 30% were killed by their mothers, and 31% by their fathers (1). Estimates by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for 1994 indicated that homicide was the fourth leading cause of death for preschool children and the third leading cause of death among children from ages 5–14 years (2). In the United States, the incidence of homicide of children less than 1 year old has increased over the past quarter-century (1). Compared to other developed nations, the United States has the highest rate of child homicide: 8.0/100,000 for infants, 2.5/100,000 for preschool-age children (age 1–4 years), and 1.5/100,000 for school-age children (age 5–14 years) (3). In contrast, Canada’s reported rate for homicide of infants was less than half that of the United States: 2.9/100,000 (3). Furthermore, multiple authors have suggested that rates of child murder by parents are underestimated in epidemiological studies of child death (4–6).

And just so we can't think things change dramatically from year to year:

http://news.discovery.com/human/group-blasts-media-blackout-on-child-abuse.html

Analysis by Benjamin Radford
Tue Dec 14, 2010 02:06 PM ET

A new analysis from the National Coalition to End Child Abuse Deaths (NCECAD) shows how the American news media turns a blind eye to child abuse deaths while lavishing extensive coverage on deaths that occur less often.

Journalists rarely cover child abuse cases unless they involve abduction and murder by sex offenders. While those rare (but sensational) cases make headlines, they are not the real problem.

Who is murdering America's children? Abusive and neglectful mothers, mostly, and fathers. Some are killed in accidents, and a relatively rare few by strangers.

According to a 2003 report by the Department of Human Services, hundreds of thousands of children are abused and neglected each year by their parents and caregivers, and over 1,500 American children died from that abuse in 2003 -- most of the victims under four years old.

That is more than four children murdered per day -- not by convicted sex offenders or Internet predators, but by those entrusted to care for them.

:rolleyes1 :rolleyes1 :rolleyes1

BTW, DVCBELLE, Thank you for the cite. I knew of the Wikipedia article but a common tactic of anyone being presented with a Wikipedia source is to discredit it simply because it is from Wikipedia. I'd do it myself in a lot of cases, especially anything politically controversial, because anyone can edit many of the articles and some, like Global Warming, are controlled by
people with an obvious bias and objections are not allowed. It's a reliable source in this case but I looked for ones that couldn't be brushed off with an excuse.
 
I wonder if this will lead to an increase in back pain?

Someone mentioned the cribs are lower - what does this mean - the side is lower or the crib is not as high off the ground?

If the side is lower - then I predict a higher number of instances where children are hurt jumping out of a crib - I had to take my son out of his crib very young b/c at 11 months he was able to jump out...

If the crib is lower to the ground - this increases the risk of other children or pets climbing in...it also would probably give a child more courage to climb out at a younger age as the drop down isn't nearly as daunting as a higher crib would be...

how long before legislation will be needed for the 2 kids a year that are smothered by a pet jumping into a lower crib or falling out need to be put into place.

Maybe just bubble-wrapping our kids would work - but then they smother in the plastic...
 
Here are some facts for you on child homicides...basically 60% by the parents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_murder


In 2008, there were 1,494 child (under 18 years) homicides in the United States.

of murdered American children younger than five years old, 61% were murdered by their parents (30% murdered by mothers, and 31% by fathers); homicide was the fourth leading cause of death amongst American preschool-aged children, and the third leading cause of death amongst American children five to fourteen years old.

First off, wikipedia is not considered a reliable source, but regardless, the statement that needed to be proven was that Purseval stated there was more parents out there murdering their children, than children dying "by exposure to lead paint, lack of a car seat, a playpen suffocation, etc"

Obviously, since legislation has prevented most of these deaths it would have to be before that was enacted
 

so, AGAIN, please provide a link showing more parent homicides than ""by exposure to lead paint, lack of a car seat, a playpen suffocation, etc" before legislation was enacted to prevent these deaths.

Or you can just admit that you can't :rotfl: but I am sure it is way more fun to stay up all night to prove something on a message board :lmao:

BTW, feel free to answer my question about what statement I made.
 
I still think it is a much more savvy move to just ban the production of this style crib rather than waste time, money and resources continually testing and recalling them when the accident rates reach an unsafe level (according to the CPSC.)

As to those who want to compare numbers, that seems to suggest that the only worthwhile issue to pursue is the one that is the greatest threat to children.

My kids don't live in a bubble (my 4 year old goes snow skiing, 8 year is in gymnastics), but I'm glad that my state has a helmet law, safer carseats exist and there is a greater interest in using safe materials in products for children. If that makes me an alarmist, I think I'm ok with that.

I'm sorry but if there was such a greater interest than why are so many things made of plastic or containing lead based paint, etc?? Why are so many things being brought in from China and other places and then recalled?? The problem with the cribs is that they are being made cheaply now and not with metal and such.
 

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