ADR 'ethics' question

[KAMommy]

This is really "GoofyDad869" posting (too lazy & too early in the mornin' to login as myself):

It would appear with the new dining "features" they are doing exactly that. We were there the week of 10/9-10/16, and every day there was a sign in front of Town Hall by 10:00am stating:

********************************************************
"No further Table Service dining available for today. We recommend the following Counter Service Restaurants for your Disney dining.
(List of MK CS)
No Priority Seating required. Check Guidemap for locations & menus."
********************************************************

We took a photo of the sign. I'm not sure if similar signs were up at the other Theme Parks - we just knew where to look for it at MK.

I think it would be logical for Disney to do one (or more) of the following:
A) Post typical park schedules & EMH at or before the 90-day ADR window.
B) Tighten the ADR window to the 60-day (or 45-day, 30-day, whatever it is they do now) window that they release the park hours.
C) Tie ALL ADRs to a credit card for reference.
D) Set a cancellation policy and stick to it.
For example:
All cancellations to 7 days of the reservation time no penalty,
All cancellations within 7 days to 2 days charge a $10 penalty,
All cancellations within 2 days to time of reservation charge a $20 penalty,
No-shows charge a $50 penalty
E) Set 'acceptable' cancellation rules and tie them to each ADR (acceptable cancellations would stuff like be: family member dies, party member dies, natural disaster occurs, etc. - similar to a trip insurance policy)
F) Set ADR adjustment rules and tie them to each ADR (like: party size changes from 4 people to 5 people - but not party size changes from 2 people to 12 people, time of ADR change half-hour before or after)

IMO, I think that Dining policies are the Parks' "Achilles Heel" right now. I mean, this is Disney we're talking about - not your average local Red Lobster. They have to know well in advance what their daily capacities are for their services (at least to within an acceptable range of say 3-5%) based on historical data, projections, staffing levels, etc. That's their business, and they obviously usually do it well. The only time I think they wouldn't might be after a major catastrophic event that would majorly affect tourism (like a 9/11-style attack somewhere in the US, an economic disaster, or a big hurricane coming through). Disney has made huge strides over the years (food quality & table service seems to be improving with each passing year). I'm probably greatly simplifying things here, so please point out any false assumptions I'm making here.

The 'system' isn't much of one right now - it seems to be at the discretion of the CM you happen to be talking to, about whether multiple same-time ADRs are allowed. So it's not really 'abuse' of the system that I've got beefs about. Rhetorical question: Is it really 'abuse' if the system allows it as status quo? I think the 'system' needs to be changed if it continues to allow this sort of thing.

Getting off my soapbox now...

 

[Tarheel Tink]

Rude...
Would never consider doing it at all.

 

[VSL]

I like KAMommy's ideas.

 

[LeesyUD]

Seeing that a credit card is now required to book the Fantasmic dinner package and California Grill, I wouldn't be suprised if Disney started doing that with alot of other restaurants. Maybe if people knew they would be charged a fee for a no show then they would be less inclined to abuse the system Disney has set up. When I was there during free dining...All the reatuarants I ate at were booked as far as ADR's go and walk-ups were turned away. However in the restaurants I saw some empty tables the whole time....my guess...people that are making multiple ADR's and not cancelling...or people that just don't show up and are not considerate enough to cancel. It may not officially be consider a "reservation" in Disney, but it obviously does reserve a spot for you, that others may not be able to get.

 

[dcgrumpy]

As far as the EMH days, I know that they don't technically release the days until 2 months or less before, but they've been the same since at least May. I've seen them add extra days when it is really busy, but I haven't seen the days change. If you go by the history you can figure out which days are which.

 

[MrsNick]

When I was making our reservations earlier in Oct for our December trip I was told that you can not have more than one dining reservation for the same day for the same meal...2 for dinner etc. I really don't remember how the conversation came up with the CM since I did not want two but somehow we were talking about it. She said they are not allowed to do it anymore.

Kelly

I'm willing to bet they aren't allowed to do it anymore because of how crowded TS was during free dining, and even with paid Magic Your Way Dining. And how many people they had to turn away.

 

[BCV23]

As far as the EMH days, I know that they don't technically release the days until 2 months or less before, but they've been the same since at least May. I've seen them add extra days when it is really busy, but I haven't seen the days change. If you go by the history you can figure out which days are which.

Actually, the EMH do change. The hours were changed during our stay of 10/12-10/20. Can't remember the specifics anymore but I saw posts here about it. The changes were made so late that apparently the WDW site wasn't even going to update it nor some other sites. It did impact our ARs as I really hate dealing with the crowds that EMH brings to a park.

As far as the normal hours, those are tweaked until very close to the actual date even though the WDW site posts them a couple of months out. The final hours used to come out 2-3 weeks ahead. Now the park hours handout only lists one week at a time so perhaps it is even tighter.

I don't think Goofydad's strict schedule of penalties would work very well. I know it would not for our family. We eat almost exclusively in TS spots but sometimes we get tired and cancel and do room service. If we were to be charged for that change, we'd soon stop doing WDW TS and eat off site or cook in our villa when we're at BCV, etc.. And what about things beyond your control such as a monorail delay (which does happen these days), a late bus, a ride that breaks down, etc.. All kinds of things can change people's plans and I think it would be a nightmare for WDW to sort out whose fault, etc..

I do think it is good that apparently they are cracking down on multiple ARs for the same meal.

 

[Rella Bella]

Wow... everyone has some good ideas. I agree that it's unfair to keep two AR's for the same night... maybe while your planning, but only if you promise to cancel one. Except of course for anniversaries!

I like the idea of the credit card... but maybe only charge it if it's not cancelled by 12 hours ahead. That would keep people honest without charging for real life, like doing DQ instead of the park because it's pouring rain that day... and you didn't know 3 days ahead that it would be.

The other thing Disney could do is to explain how the system works or why they have it on their site and/or in the general trip planning info. Unless a newbie buys a 'package deal' they really don't find out about it. I've talked to numbers of first timers that had no idea they needed to plan at all, let alone where they wanted to eat! My first time I had a friend that was a CM who explained it to me... but I still didn't really 'understand' until I was there and saw the lines.

For our very first AR we showed up 20 minutes before our time and there were at least 25 people waiting in line at the check-in! And every one of them had an AR! Boy, were we glad we had one!

 

[KAMommy]

When I was making ADR's for our recent trip, I got into this discussion with a cast member (chatting while she was confirming everything). Anyway, she said that they are discussing linking the ADR to a credit card and then requiring you to present that credit card when you check in (that is to make sure you are the one who made the reservation). Then, for no shows, she indicated they were discussing a per person charge for no shows (just like CRT is now - $10 per person if you no show).

I have no problem with this. I understand that plans change, etc. but if you need that level of flexibility, there are GREAT counter service restaurants to try (honestly, Tusker House was one of our best meals this last trip). I just think if you make an ADR, thereby preventing someone else from reserving that restaurant, you need to keep the ADR or pay a penalty.

 

[BCV23]

Counter service.....not for us. Part of the delight of a WDW vacation for our family is leisurely meals together.

Linking ARs to a CC wouldn't bother me as we do keep our reservation or cancel if necessary. But a penalty if you don't cancel withinn 7 days, 2 days, etc.. would not fly I don't think. WDW is too large and too many things can go wrong especially for novices in actually getting to restaurants on time. I even think 24 hours can be tough for some families. When our family was young, we rarely had to change reservations although I would occasionally stay with our middle child for dinner in the room when he became too tired. Our family is all grown now. For our last trip, we were sometimes 5 when our eldest was in town, 4 when our DIL who is a Disney employee could join us, and only 3 when work precluded her from dining with us. When I made our ARs, I took my best stab at how many there would be. But she had meetings that went later than she expected, etc.. so my guesses weren't always accurate.

If they start charging $10 for that type of no show, our dining dollars which are significant will go elsewhere. And not to counter service.

 

[jann1033]

i changed my mind about 500 times last trip and canceled each adr when i made the new one. disney on the other hand didn't seem to cancel any of mine so i had many multiples when i got there. that would be my major problem with cc linked...disney would have to stop messing up and what are the chances of that?

i would cancel any i knew about ahead of time but during the day of the adr( like we were running late and not going to make it) wouldn't worry about it for most places( exceptions of maybe Ohana and Le Cellier or obviously cc places) since it might impact at the most one or 2 people( assuming anyone gets turned away during the 20 mins they are holding my adr) we do however go during value season and rarely really "need" adrs. at peak season i would cancel as soon as i know i 'm not going no matter when

however most of our changes once we are there are not known 12 hrs out ( ie we didn't get to see a show in a park and so want to see that rather than go to dinner or just are not hungry) so if i had to cancel that far out i probably would change my mind about only eating on property or with adrs. especially since usually the rest. is 1/2 empty when we are there( we usually pick off times)

 

[Kaycee]

Linking ARs to a CC wouldn't bother me as we do keep our reservation or cancel if necessary. But a penalty if you don't cancel withinn 7 days, 2 days, etc.. would not fly I don't think. WDW is too large and too many things can go wrong especially for novices in actually getting to restaurants on time. I even think 24 hours can be tough for some families.

I agree with this. In the end, the nature of a WDW vacation would make these kinds of penalties for all AR's impractical. When you take into account the fact that people are generally there to tour the parks, that most guests are not frequent visitors and haven't planned every detail of the trip, and that many guests (children, older adults, those with disabilities) need the flexibility to rearrange plans if they become tired or overwhelmed with touring, it would definitely be tough for many families to cancel AR's within a certain time period to avoid penalties. I think this is the reason WDW has AR's set up the way they do.

I do think that it is unfair to hold multiple AR's for the same meal. An occasional double booking for a special event when you are concerned about weather or EMH hours is one thing. But to hold several double bookings when so many guests are being turned away from restaurants due to the popularity of the dining plan is wrong. I am not sure what can be done to prevent this from happening though.

 

[erikthewise]

All it would take is for the AR software to recognize a duplicate reservation and alert the CM. The CM could then ask "Do you wish to cancel your previous reservation?"

That would take care of most of the problem. For those people think who they are entitled to make multiple ARs at the same time, the CM could then inform them that "Your previous reservation for this meal will automatically be cancelled after seven days." (Or immediately if the date is less than 14 days off.)

Of course there are always ways to get around the system, but the problem (if there really is one) could be greatly reduced by simple changes in software and procedures.

 

[psiprez]

Well, since they allow it, I made multiple ADRs when my 90-day mark arrived.

We will be down for a big family wedding, and the bride and groom have not given us our "schedule" yet, we don't quite know which park we will be going to on what day. I do not want to be left with nowhere to eat in EPCOT, etc!

As soon as we have an idea of where we will be, I will cancel the unused ones (which BETTER be soon - I hate not having our game plan set).

There is no excuse for not cancelling, or just blowing off an ADR. Why should another family miss out?

 

[Deb & Bill]

No one gets turned away because of ADRs. They aren't a reservation. They just let you "cut in line" if there are walk-ups

Yes, people do get turned away without an ADR. I have seen it at Le Cellier, CRT, Plaza Restaurant (imagine that one) to name few. I have been in line waiting for my 5:30 ADR and others walk up and asked to be seated. They are told "Sorry, no seatings available for the rest of the evening."

Yes, it is rude to make multiple ADRs without intending to dine at all of them. So others who called at 30 days out can't get seated at the time they want, yet others walk right up and there is a vacancy because some rude person never intended to come to that place for dinner. They ought to charge for uncanceled ADRs. Might stop people from getting so many when they don't intend to use them.

 

[lagunaseca]

I do think it is an abuse of the system to make multiple AR's for the same meal. It's one thing to make one, change your mind and cancel and make a new one but to make 2 or 3 for the same meal at different places is selfish IMO. NOBODY is 100% sure where they want to dine 90 days from now but you have to use your judgement, make one at the one you really think you want and then cancel if need be and try for a new one somewhere else. It's not fair for a family who KNOWS they are (for example) going to be in the MK on a certain date and KNOW they want LTT for dinner to call and be told "nothing available" because someone who really doesn't know where they want to dine got an AR "just in case". If we all made AR's for "just in case" they'd be sold out at the 90+10 mark. I suppose they could rectify this with a cc deposit for every AR or they could eliminate AR's and be first come first serve. You know we'd all LOVE that!

 

[BeccaGrace]

I was just on the phone with Disney Dining (big surprise there--only my 5th call today ) and the cast member I spoke with said that they randomly screen for double bookings and cancel them...I heard someone mention this before and don't know how true it is but when I was making an ADR she said, "I see you have Chef Mickey's booked that night, are you sure you want me to cancel it?"

 

[Nancyg56]

I agree, but think that Disney is going to have to try to sync-up the park hours and EMH schedules to make multiple AR's less necessary in the early planning stage. I also think that policies might change with many more people using the dining plan.

I agree, and I do hope that Disney changes the policy. I have made ADR's for most days of our trip, but I am not sure of the hours. It would have been a lot easier to plan if the hours were matched with the 90 days out. I did not make extra ADR's to cover myself, but I will admit that I thought about it. I would hate to be the one calling for ressies, and being denied because others have booked 2 spots, so I acted in the manner that I would want to be treated. I do understand why people feel that they want a "backup", I just couldn't do it. Once the hours come out, I will try to change if possible.

 

[BCV23]

I really doubt that hours will ever be decided 90 days out. I don't think it is possible to get accurate crowd predictions that far out and that is how they decide on park hours.

Remember how for some years we could make resort and Epcot(hours fixed) PSs at 120 days but had to wait until 60 days for MK and MGM PSs.

And I've reread my post about our dining dollars . Didn't mean to sound so arrogant. I realize my family's additions to WDW Dining coffers are but a teardrop in a vast ocean. But I do think that many frequent visitors are like us and do cherish the restaurants as well as the parks. Making it too difficult to enjoy Disney Dining would be counter productive. Has anyone else noticed friends/family who visit every decade or so just don't "get it" because they don't even try TS?

 

[GoofyDad869]

I realize that my suggested graduated penalty scheme wouldn't work with the existing system. I was more playing "Devil's Advocate" with that suggestion. But, I think that a monetary penalty that would force most people to seriously reconsider no-shows (it would be acceptable to me not to penalize cancellations AT ALL, but definitely penalize no-shows). Here's a real-life example of not setting penalties high enough:

Here in Knoxville, TN all illegal parking tickets are $5 per tickets. Daily parking in most lots $10-$12 per day (I know some of the urban dwellers are probably spitting drinks out their noses at that ridiculously low amount). What is happening is that there is a lot of street parking at meters, and most just don't feed the meters. They just don't care, because even if you get one or two tickets per day you're still ahead of the game if you were going to pay the lot fees. BTW, my firm pays monthly parking fees for ALL of our employees (even part-time students), and we give out parking tokens to our clients.

I really don't mean to sound as crotchety or shrill as this thread might lead you to believe (I'm sick right now). I do think ADR policy is a big problem for Disney, and will get worse if something isn't done.