Absolute truth? Yes or no...

[Wishing on a star]

Just to add:

As far as 'knowing' that our spiritual beliefs are the absolute truth.
As a Christian, we know this in our very being. But, more specifically, the scriptures tell us that Christ is the way, the TRUTH, and the light. In other words, Christ himself reveals this to us.

How can we be sure... Well, I heard somebody once say that Christianity is not a 'hope so' religion. It is a 'know so' religion.

13. These things I have written unto you... that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I John 5:13

 

[FencerMcNally]

Just to add:

As far as 'knowing' that our spiritual beliefs are the absolute truth.
As a Christian, we know this in our very being. But, more specifically, the scriptures tell us that Christ is the way, the TRUTH, and the light. In other words, Christ himself reveals this to us.

How can we be sure... Well, I heard somebody once say that Christianity is not a 'hope so' religion. It is a 'know so' religion.

13. These things I have written unto you... that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I John 5:13

To clarify I think I misunderstood the tone of your earlier post, I apologize for any unintended slight.

I know these things for myself, the contention is that I do not know them for other people. I have witnessed to other people on very very few occasions in my life. When I have, I have hoped that they would come to know for themselves, but I have never thought that what I know should be known by all, or even that it is right for all.

That was about as clear as used oil.

 

[BelleMcNally]

Congratulations I see you are planning a Disney wedding, how great is that. Tell us all about it Hokie won't mind

Thank you!! We actually aren't getting married in Disney, but are planning on doing some honeymooning there.

Not to hijack the thread with my own impending marital bliss, I'll get us back on topic:

I do not believe in an absolute truth, in the colloquial sense. In the truest academic sense, yes, I believe in the absolute truth of the molecular structure and how the universe is constructed based on sub-atomic behavior. I believe that matter and energy can never be created or destroyed. But I'm guessing this isn't really the question you're asking.

I'm unsettled by the idea that there is one Truth with a capital-T that discounts all other beliefs, imaginings, etc. I, in no way, believe in an Absolute Doctrinal Truth. If we are talking about Christ, do I believe that Jesus Christ was the Divine brought to earth in human form? Sure do. Do I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of the ONE TRUE GOD of this entire universe. No, I do not. I know many, many people will disagree with me on this, but I don't think it makes me a lousy Christian either. I find that everytime I try to put a box around the Divine, it makes my own soul a little smaller. There are many room in the Father's house.

I think that the Cartesian view of the universe, where the philosopher's belief in God is resurrected from doubt through the power of mathematics is profoundly beautiful, and one of the best logical discussions of what we can KNOW in this lifetime. I really encourage everyone to check it out.

 

[sodaseller]

Just to add:

As far as 'knowing' that our spiritual beliefs are the absolute truth.
As a Christian, we know this in our very being. But, more specifically, the scriptures tell us that Christ is the way, the TRUTH, and the light. In other words, Christ himself reveals this to us.

How can we be sure... Well, I heard somebody once say that Christianity is not a 'hope so' religion. It is a 'know so' religion.

13. These things I have written unto you... that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I John 5:13

Yes, but how do Christans "know"? I think we know because we experience Christ in an undeniable way, albeit not one that that can be sensorily recorded and reproduced as "proof".

I submit that the best way to "prove" Christ's presence to another is to show its effect on us. Astronomers "prove" the existence of unseen celestial bodies through the observed gravitational effect on observable bodies. Using that as a metaphor, Christians can "prove" Christ's role in history by demonstrating n his "gravitational pull" on them. Ghandi observed that Christianity would be wonderful were it actually practiced, or words to that effect. No one falls shorter of this standard than I, but I still submit that the most persuasive way of conveying Christ as Truth is to show His effect in our lives. St. Frances stated that we should preach the Gospel daily, but to use words only if necessary. Were that done, many would be persuaded far above our poor ability to add or detract via words (had to work in a little Lincoln). If words alone could convey His Truth, it would not have been necessary for the Word to be made Flesh. An example was necessary then, and still is today

 

[BelleMcNally]

Yes, but how do Christans "know"? I think we know because we experience Christ in an undeniable way, albeit not one that that can be sensorily recoded and reproduced as "proof".

I submit that the best way to "prove" Christ's presence to another is to show its effect on us. Astronomers "prove" the existence of unseen celestial bodies through the observed gravitational effect on observable bodies. Using that as a metaphor, Christians can "prove" Christ's role in history by demonstrating n his "gravitational pull" on them. Ghandi observed that Christianity would be wonderful were it actually practiced, or words to that effect. No one falls shorter of this standard than I, but I still submit that the most persuasive way of conveying Christ as Truth is to show His effect in our lives. St. Frances stated that we should preach the Gospel daily, but to use words only if necessary. Were that done, many would be persuaded far above our poor ability to add or detract via words (had to work in a little Lincoln). If words alone could convey His Truth, it would not have been necessary for the Word to be made Flesh. An example was necessary then, and still is today

Yes! Preach the Gospel to all nations, and if you really must, use words.
That was one of my senior quotes in high school.

 

[sodaseller]

I believe that matter and energy can never be created or destroyed.

Nuclear reaction?

 

[BelleMcNally]

Nuclear reaction?

Which is why I stated both matter and energy together---the law of the conservation of matter breaks down when confronted with nuclear processes, but if you take a fixed amount of Enegry & Matter together (In that energy can become matter and vice-versa), the laws hold up.
E=MC^2 and all of that...
Big Bang=huge amount of energy converting into matter all at once.

 

[sodaseller]

Which is why I stated both matter and energy together---the law of the conservation of matter breaks down when confronted with nuclear processes, but if you take a fixed amount of Enegry & Matter together (In that energy can become matter and vice-versa), the laws hold up.
E=MC^2 and all of that...
Big Bang=huge amount of energy converting into matter all at once.

Figured you knew that stuff better than I

 

[BelleMcNally]

Figured you knew that stuff better than I

You had me nervous though--you're one smart cookie. Absolutely.

 

[FencerMcNally]

Haven't heard from hokiefan in a while, you think maybe we killed the thread?

 

[Wishing on a star]

Fencer and Sodaseller,

I continue to be interested in our conversation. And I agree with your points!

Fencer, you said

I know these things for myself, the contention is that I do not know them for other people. I have witnessed to other people on very very few occasions in my life. When I have, I have hoped that they would come to know for themselves, but I have never thought that what I know should be known by all, or even that it is right for all.

My answer to this is simple. Yes, you feel that you 'know' this to be the truth, because, as mentioned, we feel that this has been revealed to us through Christ. You can not know these things for other people. Each individual must come to know these things for themselves, as you and I have, as they have been revealed to us through Christ.

You are right, others may not know this to be 'their truth'. But, I continue to maintain my point that, the absolute truth exists, no matter whether a person knows, or understands, or believes it. Just because others may not know this to be true, does no mean that it is not the absolute truth.

In the end, the 'truth' shall set us free. In the end, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.

 

[ErikdaRed]

Absolutes exist. Truth exists. Absolute truths exist. But in my experience many people consider things to be absolute truths that aren't, and can never be.

 

[Buckalew11]

Fencer and Sodaseller,

I continue to be interested in our conversation. And I agree with your points!

Fencer, you said


My answer to this is simple. Yes, you feel that you 'know' this to be the truth, because, as mentioned, we feel that this has been revealed to us through Christ. You can not know these things for other people. Each individual must come to know these things for themselves, as you and I have, as they have been revealed to us through Christ.

You are right, others may not know this to be 'their truth'. But, I continue to maintain my point that, the absolute truth exists, no matter whether a person knows, or understands, or believes it. Just because others may not know this to be true, does no mean that it is not the absolute truth.

In the end, the 'truth' shall set us free. In the end, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord.

I totally agree with this post. I also respect people who don't. I disagree because I believe that whether you believe it or not won't matter. If I didn't believe in absolute truth and Christ go hand in hand, my faith would be quite different. I would be an 'anything goes' type person which I am not. I think God's Truth stand whether one believes it not, it is still there and forever shall be there.

 

[hokiefan33]

If we are talking about Christ, do I believe that Jesus Christ was the Divine brought to earth in human form? Sure do. Do I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of the ONE TRUE GOD of this entire universe. No, I do not. I know many, many people will disagree with me on this, but I don't think it makes me a lousy Christian either.

There's not a true Christian on these boards who should agree with the 2nd half of this statement, but I'm sure there are some who do, unfortunately. So you believe that Jesus was God incarnate - based on what? And you don't believe that He is the son of the ONE TRUE GOD? Who is He the son of? Is He the son of A god, but you just don't think THE god? What is your basis for believing this? You say you think this belief doesn't make you a lousy Christian, but if you are basing these beliefs on something outside the Bible, which you clearly must be b/c the Bible doesn't back up these beliefs AT ALL, then how do you still maintain that these are even Christian beliefs?

 

[BelleMcNally]

There's not a true Christian on these boards who should agree with the 2nd half of this statement, but I'm sure there are some who do, unfortunately. So you believe that Jesus was God incarnate - based on what? And you don't believe that He is the son of the ONE TRUE GOD? Who is He the son of? Is He the son of A god, but you just don't think THE god? What is your basis for believing this? You say you think this belief doesn't make you a lousy Christian, but if you are basing these beliefs on something outside the Bible, which you clearly must be b/c the Bible doesn't back up these beliefs AT ALL, then how do you still maintain that these are even Christian beliefs?

Chris·tian
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

I see nothing in my life that does not fit into this definition. I base my belief system on the study of the Bible as one of many spiritual texts, and a great deal of prayer and contemplation. I believe that God has been manifest in our world on multiple occassions, and Christ is the true human form of the Divine.

It's worked pretty well for me so far.

 

[hokiefan33]

Chris·tian
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

I see nothing in my life that does not fit into this definition. I base my belief system on the study of the Bible as one of many spiritual texts, and a great deal of prayer and contemplation. I believe that God has been manifest in our world on multiple occassions, and Christ is the true human form of the Divine.

It's worked pretty well for me so far.

I don't think we should use the world's definition of "Christian" to determine whether we fit it or not. There are many people who claim to be "Christian", who clearly aren't, and clearly don't hold to Biblical beliefs. And believing that Jesus is not the son of the ONE TRUE GOD is clearly NOT a Biblical belief. It is in fact a very core belief for a Christian's life. The Bible tells us about God, Jesus (His Son), and what we are to believe about Him. And if the Bible says that there is one God, and Jesus is His Son, how can you call yourself a Christian if you don't believe that basic belief? You can't.

 

[BelleMcNally]

I don't think we should use the world's definition of "Christian" to determine whether we fit it or not. There are many people who claim to be "Christian", who clearly aren't, and clearly don't hold to Biblical beliefs. And believing that Jesus is not the son of the ONE TRUE GOD is clearly NOT a Biblical belief. It is in fact a very core belief for a Christian's life. The Bible tells us about God, Jesus (His Son), and what we are to believe about Him. And if the Bible says that there is one God, and Jesus is His Son, how can you call yourself a Christian if you don't believe that basic belief? You can't.

Oh my gosh, you're right!!! My whole life has been a lie...whatever am I going to do now...

(And with that, my time on this thread is over).

ETA: Does this mean I qualify for the Godless heathens thread?

 

[Wishing on a star]

Very interesting that BelleMcNally posts a quote from a Dictionary, while completely disregarding the Bible and the core beliefs of Christianity as a whole.

Many may believe that a man named Jesus Christ walked the earth. However, the Scriptures, and Christianity as a whole, reveal the he was much more than that. That he was God incarnate.

As mentioned, the Truth exist, no matter what a persons personal beliefs. As for myself, I would never base my conception of Truth on a listing in a Dictionary.

 

[cardaway]

ETA: Does this mean I qualify for the Godless heathens thread?

Yes. The inscription left on your forehead after that round of thumping acts as your membership card.

 

[BelleMcNally]

Very interesting that BelleMcNally posts a quote from a Dictionary, while completely disregarding the Bible and the core beliefs of Christianity as a whole.

Many may believe that a man named Jesus Christ walked the earth. However, the Scriptures, and Christianity as a whole, reveal the he was much more than that. That he was God incarnate.

As mentioned, the Truth exist, no matter what a persons personal beliefs. As for myself, I would never base my conception of Truth on a listing in a Dictionary.

Jesus himself Never uses the word Christian. Is the Bible (in whatever translation you choose to subscribe to) really the only source of truth in the world?