Absolute truth? Yes or no...

[hokiefan33]

Not that it is any of your business, but I have "made that leap." That leap is a leap of FAITH. I am confident. I have no need to prove any of that to you, and your opinion, yes opinion, of my relationship with God has no relevance. You asked if people thought there were absolute truths, I answered you. I am a human being with the limited knowledge and the limited ability to understand God that all human beings have, and I am not going to claim to have otherwise.

You're missing my point. I never said anything about your relationship with God. And I never said that we can completely understand God, much less that I do. But I did say that we can be absolutely sure that God exists, and that Christianity is ABSOLUTELY true. And my point is the same as yours, we "make that leap", if you will, by faith. But my point is also this - that "leap of faith" should be definite. How can it be questioned? How can you NOT think that it is always right? If you think it could be wrong, at any point in the future, can you REALLY say that you absolutely believe it? I just don't think you can...

 

[Mysteria]

I guarantee you the real God nor the Dis powers that be would like me expressing my opinions about you right now Hokie though I would dearly love to get it off my chest here, thank goodness for other outlets.

....and that's the absolute truth!

Myst

 

[hokiefan33]

I guarantee you the real God nor the Dis powers that be would like me expressing my opinions about you right now Hokie though I would dearly love to get it off my chest here, thank goodness for other outlets.

....and that's the absolute truth!

Myst

Opinions vary. But yours is always welcome. I don't get offended easily, usually not at all.

 

[FencerMcNally]

Well then, before we even get to tense, which you seem stuck on, you also have to look at the meaning of the words used. You say there's nothing wrong with the statement "I'm definitely right, but then again, I could be wrong." How so? If you're "definitely" right, then that means you are confident that you are right. It makes no assumption as to when you are right, only that you ARE right. And if you're definitely right, then you can't also be wrong, at any point, when talking about the same thing. Can you say "the ocean is definitely wet, but then again, it could be dry"? No, b/c it can't be both at the same time, and you've already said that it is DEFINITELY wet. You can't use an "absolute word", in whatever tense, and then contradict that absolute word. It IS absolutely incompatible.

actually you can, because "definitely" is an adverb tied to the adjective "right" tied to the verb "am" which is in the present tense. "definitely" is a modifier within the sentence and therefore is bound within the tense of that sentence. No, "definitely" does not make an assumption as to when you are right; the verb "am" takes care of that. "definitely" itself has no implications of time. You can be definitely right about something now and wrong about it in the future. Things change, there are an infinite number of variables in the universe.

To use your example: the ocean is definitely wet right now, in the future God could fundamentally change the nature of the ocean to be dry and demand that you call it the ocean. Admittedly this scenario is probably unlikely, but it's God, God can do whatever God wants to do.

Can you say "the ocean is definitely wet, but then again, it could be dry"? No, b/c it can't be both at the same time, and you've already said that it is DEFINITELY wet. You can't use an "absolute word", in whatever tense, and then contradict that absolute word. It IS absolutely incompatible.

And you keep forgetting that when you use the word "could" you're talking about a future uncertainty. Anything "could" happen in the future, whereas the ocean is (present tense) wet now.

Definitely is not a totally absolute word; it has no implications of time.

 

[BelleMcNally]

Well then, before we even get to tense, which you seem stuck on, you also have to look at the meaning of the words used.

Tense is intrinsically tied to meaning.

 

[Mugg Mann]

I always find it amazing to see how the people who say there are no absolute truths get around the fact that 1+1 ALWAYS equals 2. That is clearly absolute, b/c 1+1 NEVER equals anything else EXCEPT 2!

Except when using the mathematical system of base 2, in which 1+1=10. (Acknowledgements to the earlier poster who thought that in binary 1+1=0; you had the right idea for a counter argument, but your math was regretfully faulty).

As a result, Hokiefan, when you say "1+1 NEVER equals anything else EXCEPT 2!" you are unequivally wrong. If you have the capacity to do so, you may want to use this example as an opportunity to choose to widen your life experiences to include the reality that there are other perspectives beyond yours, and that they are equally valid.

 

[BelleMcNally]

This is just an interesting observation, I did a Google search for "Is there Absolute Truth?" expecting to get a lot of web pages discussion heisenberg, schroedinger, descartes, hegel and the like...
instead the first three pages of results are all from religious groups.

I find this very interesting. The idea of absolute truth has always been a philosophical question, rather than a spiritual one for me...

 

[SwedishMeatball]

I need a drink. I think this would be appropriate.

 

[BelleMcNally]

I need a drink. I think this would be appropriate.

Now That's an Absolut everybody can get behind!!

Are you pouring? If so, count me in.

 

[SwedishMeatball]

Now That's an Absolut everybody can get behind!!

Are you pouring? If so, count me in.

Absolutely.

 

[FencerMcNally]

Absolutely.

Hey! Are you trying to liquor up my fiancée?!

 

[Wishing on a star]

"Truth does not become more true by virtue of the fact that the entire world agrees with it, nor less so even if the whole world disagrees with it",

This is the best quote on this thread!!

YES, there is absolute truth. (How could there not be!!!!)

NO, the 'truth' has nothing... NOTHING... at all to do with how I 'feel' about it. Or if I happen to have all the facts. Or if I choose to believe.


For example,
1 + 1 always equals 2
in any other numerical system, then 1 + 1 will ALWAYS equal the same given value.

It doesn't matter what language you choose to express it in.. Japanese, Swahili, or some computer code. It is always true that 1 + 1 will equal the same given value.

It doesn't matter if I 'understand' math.
It doesn't matter if I 'believe' it or not.

My personal thoughts do not have any affect on absolute truth.

 

[Mysteria]

I need a drink. I think this would be appropriate.

Now that absolut will get people to tell the absolute truth!

Myst

 

[Buckalew11]

I believe that there is absolute truths. I base my whole faith on believe that there is but 1 true God. Of course, there are also absolutes in math, science etc. but for me, the real truth, the absolute truth is that there is a God who we learn a lot about the nature of from the Bible and He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

 

[L107ANGEL]

Hey! Are you trying to liquor up my fiancée?!

Congratulations I see you are planning a Disney wedding, how great is that. Tell us all about it Hokie won't mind

 

[Planogirl]

Now That's an Absolut everybody can get behind!!

Are you pouring? If so, count me in.

Count me in too! This is the first "absolute" in this thread that I can get behind. Well, besides the fact that someone is trying to stir up trouble again.

 

[sodaseller]

My views are as follows. The one Triune God intervened in human history through the Incarnation of Christ, who is the Alpha & Omega and the ultimate meaning of History. Salvific truth is revealed through his Word and through tradition, and is continuously revealed to us through prayer and meditation when we are truly open to it. That is absolute Truth.

Two things I do not believe. That the Word is literal history, or is intended to be a reference book, or even be divisive among those of goodwill seeking truth. It is meant to convey higher truths, not minutiae. When He was among us, he communicated indirectly by analogous reasoning (parables), so I see no reason to read the Word differently. Yes it is a Divine Communication, but I still pull weeds in my garden.

The other thing I do not believe is that I can ever "prove" any of the above via human understanding, no matter what disciple, be it mathematics, physics etc. To suggest otherwise is to diminish the very real role of faith, which is plainly part of Salvific truth (witness the encomium to Thomas in the locked room). To demand that those that do not believe submit to my logical "proof" is a Fool's errand, ultimately saying more about my own lack of faith and example than it does about the other's failure to be persuaded.

 

[FencerMcNally]

YES, there is absolute truth. (How could there not be!!!!)

NO, the 'truth' has nothing... NOTHING... at all to do with how I 'feel' about it. Or if I happen to have all the facts. Or if I choose to believe.

I agree, but how do you know whether you've got yourself an absolute truth. There are very few things that we can prove logically; most things require a leap of faith or a general consensus. All of science is a general consensus. People agreed that Newton's Mechanics were absolutely true until they found Quantum Mechanics and so on.

All of my chatter about language is simply meant to show that much of what we call absolute truth, really isn't so absolute. Language is so often unequal to the task of describing things, but it's all we have, so we make an effort. That does not mean that we should forget how inadequate language really is. Especially when we're going to claim absolute truths and use them to dictate how other people's lives should work (see gay marriage, etc.).

 

[FencerMcNally]

My views are as follows. The one Triune God intervened in human history through the Incarnation of Christ, who is the Alpha & Omega and the ultimate meaning of History. Salvific truth is revealed through his Word and through tradition, and is continuously revealed to us through prayer and meditation when we are truly open to it. That is absolute Truth.

Two things I do not believe. That the Word is literal history, or is intended to be a reference book, or even be divisive among those of goodwill seeking truth. It is meant to convey higher truths, not minutiae. When He was among us, he communicated indirectly by analogous reasoning (parables), so I see no reason to read the Word differently. Yes it is a Divine Communication, but I still pull weeds in my garden.

The other thing I do not believe is that I can ever "prove" any of the above via human understanding, no matter what disciple, be it mathematics, physics etc. To suggest otherwise is to diminish the very real role of faith, which is plainly part of Salvific truth (witness the encomium to Thomas in the locked room). To demand that those that do not believe submit to my logical "proof" is a Fool's errand, ultimately saying more about my own lack of faith and example than it does about the other's failure to be persuaded.

Now this, I agree with.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Fencer and Sodaseller,

I agree with you both on many points!

Fencer, in many cases, we may not know whether we are believing in the correct 'absolute' truth. We, as human beings, are limited! That is just what I was saying in my post, that what we 'think' or 'feel' or 'believe' has no bearing on the fact that there IS absolute truth. Just because we may not fully know, or understand, does not change the fact that it is there.

I was only using that reference to language, because, to change the value or meaning of the character '1' does not change that fact that for any value, an 'absolute' answer, or truth, is there for the value of 1 + 1.

I wanted to show that it is a completely erroneous argument to say that absolute truth does not exist because by changing the facts/values placed on the character '1', will yield a different answer.

As far as the other language factors, such as the semantics mentioned... Likewise, they have NO bearing at all on the fact that absolute truth does exist.