A surpising quote from Jefferson on the wall between church and state

[ead79]

Shoot, just look at the dollar bill as a good example. It does, indeed, say, "In God We Trust." But what most people miss is that it also has a latin inscription declaring the US a secular endeavor.

Sorry to go all geeky on you, but what Latin phrase on the dollar bill declares the US a secular endeavor? The only ones I've seen on currency are e pluribus unum (one from many) and annuit coeptis (fortune favors our undertakings). I'm just curious (I took Latin way back in the day).

 

[BuckNaked]

Now, if you were a federal judge rather than just a federal employee, that might be different...but a federal judge is not just a person, he is also a representative of the state.

Being a federal judge does not require one to give up his Constitutional rights, including the right to freely practice his religious beliefs (the pesky other side of the First Amendment coin). Religious tests for federal office or requiring that federal representatives hide their religious beliefs would be blatantly unconstitutional.

Do you believe if that case went to court the other party would win? I sure don't. People can claim a violation of rights all they want. It does not make a legal truth.

No, I don't think the person would win in court. I was just providing an example of overly sensitive and easily offended some people are.

 

[yeartolate]

No, I don't think the person would win in court. I was just providing an example of overly sensitive and easily offended some people are.

But that goes both ways. I could tell you about a group of nurses who acknowledge in the employment contract that working "every other weekend" is part of the job. Then they insist they are being denied their ability to practice their religion because they have to work Sundays.They were offended that that we would not accomodate. Ummmm...hello, you signed a job description saying this was a requirement. When they are offered the opportunity to work every Saturday instead --they whine and say "it is just not fair". One tried to obtain a lawyer over it as well.

 

[BuckNaked]

But that goes both ways. I could tell you about a group of nurses who acknowledge in the employment contract that working "every other weekend" is part of the job. Then they insist they are being denied their ability to practice their religion because they have to work Sundays.They were offended that that we would not accomodate. Ummmm...hello, you signed a job description saying this was a requirement. When they are offered the opportunity to work every Saturday instead --they whine and say "it is just not fair". One tried to obtain a lawyer over it as well.

I agree it goes both ways, and so long as they are being offered accomodation and they refuse, tough for them.

 

[SonicLogic]

Sorry to go all geeky on you, but what Latin phrase on the dollar bill declares the US a secular endeavor? The only ones I've seen on currency are e pluribus unum (one from many) and annuit coeptis (fortune favors our undertakings). I'm just curious (I took Latin way back in the day).

Novus Ordo Seclorum, means a new secular class. This means that this country has an outlook or philosophy that supports human values.

 

[BuckNaked]

Novus Ordo Seclorum, means a new secular class. This means that this country has an outlook or philosophy that supports human values.

Really? Someone should have informed the Founding Fathers!

http://www.greatseal.com/mottoes/seclorum.html

"Novus" means: new, young, fresh, novel. "Ordo" means: series, row, order. "Seclorum, a shortened form of seculorum (sæculorum), is the plural of seculum (sæculum), means: generations, centuries, ages.

Latin expert Charles Thomson coined the motto: "novus ordo seclorum" and explained:

"The date underneath [the pyramid] is that of the Declaration of Independence and the words under it signify the beginning of the new American Æra, which commences from that date."

The U.S. State Department translation of "novus ordo seclorum" is:

"A new order of the ages"

NOTE: "Novus ordo seclorum" was not intended to mean (nor does it correctly translate into) "new world order." Seclorum is plural (new worlds order?). And Thomson said the motto refers to the new American era beginning in 1776. Also, "new world order" is originally an English phrase whose Latin translation would not be "novus ordo seclorum."

 

[yeartolate]

I agree it goes both ways, and so long as they are being offered accomodation and they refuse, tough for them.

Do you think that if they sign an emplyment agreement acknowledging that every other weekend is required that an accomodation offer is necesssary? I don't. I agree that it may be in the employer's best interest to offer accomodation, but it should not be required. The nurses involved in this seem to truly believe their freedom to practice religion is truly being oppressed.

 

[SonicLogic]

Really? Someone should have informed the Founding Fathers!

I would recommend you read Novus Ordo Seclorum: The Intellectual Origins of the Constitution by Forrest McDonald.

 

[BuckNaked]

I would recommend you read Novus Ordo Seclorum: The Intellectual Origins of the Constitution by Forrest McDonald.

And I would suggest that you go to the link I provided and read the comments of the man that put the phrase on the seal, as well as the meaning of the words. The translation you gave is incorrect.

 

[BuckNaked]

Do you think that if they sign an emplyment agreement acknowledging that every other weekend is required that an accomodation offer is necesssary? I don't. I agree that it may be in the employer's best interest to offer accomodation, but it should not be required. The nurses involved in this seem to truly believe their freedom to practice religion is truly being oppressed.

I believe that once they signed the contract, the employer was under no obligation to offer any further accomodations. However, once the employer DID offer further accomodations, the griping employees really have nothing to stand on, IMO.

 

[SonicLogic]

And I would suggest that you go to the link I provided and read the comments of the man that put the phrase on the seal, as well as the meaning of the words. The translation you gave is incorrect.

It might be best if you understood the compromise that it represents.

 

[BuckNaked]

It might be best if you understood the compromise that it represents.

I think it might be best if you didn't purposely misinterpret and misrepresent what the phrase actually says in order to further your own argument.

 

[Aidensmom]

I agree, we don't want to go backwards. But at the same time, people should be free to declare that they are Christians without being told to sit down, shut up and quit forcing their beliefs on others.

Yep.

What I find interesting is that in the real world (as opposed to the internet world), this has never cause me a problem. In an office of over 50 people, I am one of only 2 Christians (not to mention Conservatives - must be the business I am in) there, and everyone knows it, respects it, and does not have a problem with it. I am actually very well-liked. However, on the DISboards, I am flamed and called names almost every time I say anything about my beliefs.

Maybe no one really likes me in real life and is just being polite, or maybe we just make more assumptions about someone on the internet because we don't really know the whole person.

 

[chadfromdallas]

Maybe no one really likes me in real life and is just being polite, or maybe we just make more assumptions about someone on the internet because we don't really know the whole person.

 

[SonicLogic]

I think it might be best if you didn't purposely misinterpret and misrepresent what the phrase actually says in order to further your own argument.

I pointed out Forrest McDonald's book for the very reason that you really need to understand the term in the context of the eighteenth century and the first century B.C. to wit:

The motto has been traced to Virgil, the renowned Roman poet who lived in the first century B.C. – to a line in his Eclogue IV, the pastoral poem that expresses the longing of the world for a new era of peace and happiness.

"Magnus ab integro seclorum nascitur ordo."

Virgil's line has been translated in different ways, including:
The great series of ages begins anew.
The ages' mighty march begins anew.
A mighty order of ages is born anew.
The majestic roll of circling centuries begins anew.



The entire passage by Virgil reads:

Ultima Cumaei venit iam carminis aetas;

magnus ab integro saeclorum nascitur ordo.

iam redit et Virgo, redeunt Saturnia regna,

iam nova progenies caelo demittitur alto.

I hope this helps you to better understand the phrase.

 

[Aidensmom]

I would certainly that government should never force anyone to be Christian, nor do I think the founding fathers proposed that (quite the opposite actually).

The true meaning of "separation of church and state." A state religion cannot be established to tell people what to believe. Not that if you believe something that someone else does, you are not allowed to say/show/express that. In my 3-year old's preschool class, they were encouraged to bring in their favorite book to share. My son chose his Noah's Ark book, because it has a rainbow and he is fascinated with them. I was asked not to bring a "Christian book" the next time because the school is publicly funded . Sorry, but if it is his favorite book, he should be just allowed to bring that as anyone else can bring theirs. If you don't believe in the Noah story, why can't you just consider it fiction as you would the rest of the books that were brought? I didn't complain that a Spiderman book was going to cause my son to believe in something that I did not believe in!

 

[Aidensmom]

I agree wholeheartedly with that...but could you please point me to a single case of that happening ? Christians are, and will remain for the foreseeable future, the vast majority. Their rights aren't in any danger. It is only when they insist on legislating their beliefs - or displaying them in inappropriate places, such as courthouses - that I would ever say, "stop."

LOL - read the thread where "Jesus Christ" apologized to offending people (if it has not been deleted.) This will sum up the feelings of many people towards the supposed majority of Christians. The OP stated she apologized because she was a Christian and was sorry that she said some things under JC's name. If you remember the apology you posted, everyone agreed/sympathized with you, including the people that don't usually have your POV. On this one, however, her apology was pretty much dissed (no pun intended as this is the Dis board ) as something that was unneccessary because Christians were wrong, nuts, had no sense of humor, etc, etc - especially me who was the one to say the posts were offensive. Anyone else can be offended on these boards, but if you are a Christian, well you are just evil and should expect it. The fact that me and the OP actually agreed at that point made no difference - we were pretty much told we were wrong for what we thought. It really amazed me how when someone is making an apology, that people just blew off what she was trying to say...especially because a lot of those people try to make a point of how compassionate and caring they are, but I guess that only applies to people that hold their beliefs.

BTW, if the original poster of that apology thread is reading this, I still think you are the most admirable person on these boards - your honesty and lack of fear to state your true feelings is extraordinary.

 

[Aidensmom]

Chad - you may not like me, and I really couldn't care less, but I am actually very well liked by people who know me. Can't say I am your biggest fan either - you seem to think you know exactly everything a person thinks, does, and stands for because they use the term "Christian" when in fact you really don't know any of us. You may think we are judgemental, but I don't group all atheists into one definition, they are individual people. And most of them should be very grateful that I don't group them in with you.

 

[SonicLogic]

I have always beleived our government was founded on Christian principals (and there is lots of evidence for this)...

"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy." -George Washington

 

[chadfromdallas]

Chad - you may not like me, and I really couldn't care less, but I am actually very well liked by people who know me. Can't say I am your biggest fan either - you seem to think you know exactly everything a person thinks, does, and stands for because they use the term "Christian" when in fact you really don't know any of us. You may think we are judgemental, but I don't group all atheists into one definition, they are individual people. And most of them should be very grateful that I don't group them in with you.

Umm...I was joking...What the heck? I figured the " " would convey that a bit. Nice to know where you stand on me though, yesh Its all good. You can join the many others I guess

And just a little fyi, I'm talking to a Christian off of here as I type this I know her