A quick comparision on illegal immigration!

[Miss Jasmine]

Unless you're a Native American, this would include pretty much everyone.

I wish there was as much outrage over companies like Haliburton getting billions in tax money and then moving their company out of the country as there is outrage over someone coming here to scrub toilets and actually enrolling their children in school while they're here.

I agree. This is what we should be most concerned about.

Perhaps we have jumped directly to the word "immigrants" and put too much focus on those from Mexico. We should linger a bit longer over the word "illegal" and if the sombrero fits...

Something interesting I just learned: Google "Operation Wetback" and see how such things were addressed before PC started confusing everything.

Oh please according to those policies I would be stopped in the streets and questioned, and I was born here as was my father.

 

[CheshireVal]

I also don't like the idea of using profiling to try to catch illegals. It's a dangerous sort of slippery slope.

I really would like something done about the number of illegals in this country, but if you sit and think about it, an efficient, fair, and perfect solution just doesn't exist.

 

[EMom]

Perhaps we have jumped directly to the word "immigrants" and put too much focus on those from Mexico. We should linger a bit longer over the word "illegal" and if the sombrero fits...

Something interesting I just learned: Google "Operation Wetback" and see how such things were addressed before PC started confusing everything.

I was born and raised in Texas and my family has been here since before the Revolution. (It was Mexico back then. Does that make us Mexican? )

DSis and I were discussing this "they do jobs Americans won't do" line, which I don't buy for a minute. Americans will do the jobs, but they're going to want a bit more money, be eligible for worker's comp, etc. NEWSFLASH: When illegal aliens become citizens, they're going to expect that too. Ooops, businesses.....Your cheap labor vanishes! Anyway, she's several years older and I asked her if she remembered any Mexicans being around when we were growing up, because I didn't remember seeing any until around the early to mid-80s. In Texas.....not the valley, though. She said I was remembering correctly.

Well, our yards were mowed, our houses got built, our children had sitters, the crops were planted and picked, the roads were maintained and the chicken factory kept shipping out drumsticks. Our world ran quite smoothly. It did not grind to a halt, yet there were no illegal aliens to "do the work Americans won't do" because Americans DID THE WORK. And if every illegal alien disappeared tomorrow, yes there would be an adjustment period, but we'd adapt and Americans would do the jobs again. Artificially depressed wages would rise and we'd pay more for some things, but I think that would be offset by what we're now spending on programs for illegal aliens. Grass would not be 2 feet tall in our yards and hotel rooms would indeed get cleaned. We would figure it out. If we can put a man on the moon, we can manage without illegal aliens.

After DSis and I talked, I wondered WHY there had been no (illegal) Mexicans in our part of Texas for so long. I mean, we're a border state. After the 1986 amnesty, illegal immigration snowballed, but why was it so limited before that, especially in my sister's and my youth? I started researching and also came across the program mentioned above, with the mega politically incorrect name of Operation Wetback, instituted by Eisenhower. Suddenly, all was explained.

Not even the most rabid anti-illegal immigration candidate will EVER mention Operation Wetback because of that name. But it does blow "it's not realistic to think we can deport them" right out of the water. Eisenhower didn't even deport that high a percentage. He made it unpleasant enough to stay in the US and took away the incentive to be here so that many self-deported and others decided not to come in the first place. The illegal immigrant population plummeted in a short time.

I'm not a racist, I'm a realist. If we're talking about Mexico, Mexico will never have any incentive to solve its problems so long as it can foist off its poor on the US. And as long as it can send its poor to the US, it will avoid solving its problems. The elite there have no reason to change things. They're doing fine. In 100 years, the situation will be the same. A true favor to Mexicans would be to seal that border and force Mexico face its problems and treat its own citizens decently. It has plenty of natural resources and there is no reason so many of its people should live in such poverty. Crossing into the US is a bandaid on a cancerous lesion. Mexico's presidents chuckle every time one of their citizens crosses the US border because it's one less headache for them and more money coming back to Mexico. I believe Mexico treats people who enter Mexico illegally....mainly from the south.....quite harshly and locks them away for a few years. Seems they only like illegals going in ONE direction.

At any rate, who can blame someone for wanting to go where they can make enough money to help their family? Probably no one. But it is not OUR problem to fix, because the problem lies in their own country, wherever that may be. In the case of Texas, we have Mexico right next door. Illegal immigration from Mexico will never (almost) stop until Mexico improves the living conditions for its own people and it will NEVER do that until its hand is forced. It is high time that happened. The US cannot keep taking on an endless number of illegal aliens from Mexico (in this case) and Mexicans deserve better from their own government. They shouldn't have to flee their own country to be able to live a decent life.

 

[disneymom3]

Mexicans don't poop everywhere. They go to the bathroom in a toilet just like eveyone else. You are a racist.

The OP never said a word about anyone's ethnicity OR about anyone who was in the US LEGALLY. Why is it so hard for some people to understand that you can separate immigrants from illegal immigrants?

 

[CapeCodTenor]

I was born and raised in Texas and my family has been here since before the Revolution. (It was Mexico back then. Does that make us Mexican? )

DSis and I were discussing this "they do jobs Americans won't do" line, which I don't buy for a minute. Americans will do the jobs, but they're going to want a bit more money, be eligible for worker's comp, etc. NEWSFLASH: When illegal aliens become citizens, they're going to expect that too. Ooops, businesses.....Your cheap labor vanishes! Anyway, she's several years older and I asked her if she remembered any Mexicans being around when we were growing up, because I didn't remember seeing any until around the early to mid-80s. In Texas.....not the valley, though. She said I was remembering correctly.

Well, our yards were mowed, our houses got built, our children had sitters, the crops were planted and picked, the roads were maintained and the chicken factory kept shipping out drumsticks. Our world ran quite smoothly. It did not grind to a halt, yet there were no illegal aliens to "do the work Americans won't do" because Americans DID THE WORK. And if every illegal alien disappeared tomorrow, yes there would be an adjustment period, but we'd adapt and Americans would do the jobs again. Artificially depressed wages would rise and we'd pay more for some things, but I think that would be offset by what we're now spending on programs for illegal aliens. Grass would not be 2 feet tall in our yards and hotel rooms would indeed get cleaned. We would figure it out. If we can put a man on the moon, we can manage without illegal aliens.

After DSis and I talked, I wondered WHY there had been no (illegal) Mexicans in our part of Texas for so long. I mean, we're a border state. After the 1986 amnesty, illegal immigration snowballed, but why was it so limited before that, especially in my sister's and my youth? I started researching and also came across the program mentioned above, with the mega politically incorrect name of Operation Wetback, instituted by Eisenhower. Suddenly, all was explained.

Not even the most rabid anti-illegal immigration candidate will EVER mention Operation Wetback because of that name. But it does blow "it's not realistic to think we can deport them" right out of the water. Eisenhower didn't even deport that high a percentage. He made it unpleasant enough to stay in the US and took away the incentive to be here so that many self-deported and others decided not to come in the first place. The illegal immigrant population plummeted in a short time.

I'm not a racist, I'm a realist. If we're talking about Mexico, Mexico will never have any incentive to solve its problems so long as it can foist off its poor on the US. And as long as it can send its poor to the US, it will avoid solving its problems. The elite there have no reason to change things. They're doing fine. In 100 years, the situation will be the same. A true favor to Mexicans would be to seal that border and force Mexico face its problems and treat its own citizens decently. It has plenty of natural resources and there is no reason so many of its people should live in such poverty. Crossing into the US is a bandaid on a cancerous lesion. Mexico's presidents chuckle every time one of their citizens crosses the US border because it's one less headache for them and more money coming back to Mexico. I believe Mexico treats people who enter Mexico illegally....mainly from the south.....quite harshly and locks them away for a few years. Seems they only like illegals going in ONE direction.

At any rate, who can blame someone for wanting to go where they can make enough money to help their family? Probably no one. But it is not OUR problem to fix, because the problem lies in their own country, wherever that may be. In the case of Texas, we have Mexico right next door. Illegal immigration from Mexico will never (almost) stop until Mexico improves the living conditions for its own people and it will NEVER do that until its hand is forced. It is high time that happened. The US cannot keep taking on an endless number of illegal aliens from Mexico (in this case) and Mexicans deserve better from their own government. They shouldn't have to flee their own country to be able to live a decent life.

First off, wonderful post. Secondly, this is why I'm not a fan of amnesty...it will never work. I don't remember the numbers, but it's been said that since the '86 amnesty, the number of illegal aliens in this country has doubled. Something I really don't want to have happen again. I've mentioned this on a number of occasions, but there's not one good reason to pardon/give amnesty to, a bunch of illegal aliens. I do get responses, and they run along the lines of this, "Well, they do the jobs American's won't," or "They're here already and established, why move them," or something along those lines. That's a bunch of BS. Doesn't the word ILLEGAL mean anything anymore? These people are here illegally, and I don't care what nationallity they are, they are already breaking our laws. The only reason our politicians are soft on illegal immigration is the negative impact it would have on their careers. That's the only reason. The Hispanic voting block is huge in this country, and they wield a lot of power, and they will scare the pants off any politician who tries to crack down to hard.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

YOUR the one that threw in 2 for spanish. Jump to conclusions much?

Have you ever called into a phone system that asks you to press 2 for Portugese, or German, or Mandarin? Seen that bilingual Corn Flakes box include English and Russian wording? And it's obvious "people waving flags other than Old Glory are squawking and screaming in the streets" refers to the recent (primarily Mexican) immigration rallies.

C'mon, we all know that illegal immigrants entering the U.S. are mostly Mexican. This does not mean that everyone against illegal immigration is racist, but it is a fact and efforts to pretend you (general you) don't realize that are disingenous, at best.

 

[LadyShiva]

Have you ever called into a phone system that asks you to press 2 for Portugese, or German, or Mandarin? Seen that bilingual Corn Flakes box include English and Russian wording? And it's obvious "people waving flags other than Old Glory are squawking and screaming in the streets" refers to the recent (primarily Mexican) immigration rallies.

C'mon, we all know that illegal immigrants entering the U.S. are mostly Mexican. This does not mean that everyone against illegal immigration is racist, but it is a fact and efforts to pretend you (general you) don't realize that are disingenous, at best.

Yes, I have. Here's some examples:
http://www.sagecard.com/features.html
http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/en_UK/content/krisflyer/customerservice/contact.jsp
http://www.labor.state.ny.us/ui/claimantinfo/PathToSpeakToAnAgent.shtm New York State Department of Labor.

I also have a bottle of Pantene conditioner in my shower that is in English and French. Same goes with several food items in my house (such as chocolate) that have several different languages on them. Hey, I even have a food item with English and Korean languages I bought in an American grocery store.

Brandie

 

[happybratpack]

There is just so much fun to have on these threads when people have such moral outrage.

Work is complete crap today so figured I'd read this thread just for the drama.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

http://www.sagecard.com/features.html
http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/en_UK/content/krisflyer/customerservice/contact.jsp
http://www.labor.state.ny.us/ui/claimantinfo/PathToSpeakToAnAgent.shtm New York State Department of Labor.

Yes, I have. Here's some examples.

Brandie

Cute, but somehow, when the author of the piece said "I have to press "one" to hear my bank talk to me in English", I don't think he was talking about products marketed specifically to Asian countries. And with the NYS DOL, look, Spanish is still the first of the many other languages available, and the only language actually used on the initial greeting.

Besides, you can google all you want, of course you'll be able to find some other examples. My "have you ever" comment was not meant to imply that it never happens, but that we all know full well that the language that people get all up in arms about is almost always Spanish.

 

[LadyShiva]

Cute, but somehow, when the author of the piece said "I have to press "one" to hear my bank talk to me in English", I don't think he was talking about products marketed specifically to Asian countries.

How do you know that? Seriously? At no point in that first post is "Spanish" even said.

You have made an inference here. At least own up to it.

I'm pretty ticked off about people from China dying on carrier ships trying to get over here. *shrug* Latin Americans (because I don't stop with just "Mexicans") are also the ethnicity of a lot of illegal aliens, from the recent ICE raid in Durango. Heck, I'm not too wild about Cubans interfering in Florida politics.

But I also don't play the race card with regards to "illegal aliens." As someone put it earlier, "illegal" is "illegal." It doesn't state a gender, age, ethnicity, or sexual orientation.

Brandie

 

[connorlevismom]

Doesn't the word ILLEGAL mean anything anymore?

Only to those who follow the rules. The others? Well, the rules don't apply to them so they are not doing anything illegal.

Kristine

 

[va32h]

you child's2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English: Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to press "one" to hear my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than "Old Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free liberties.

When you start bringing up issues like "they don't speak English" and "they're waving other countries' flags" though, you sound more like a bigot than a person with a concern about illegal immigration.

Do all legal immigrants speak English? It's only the illegal ones that don't? Verizion has multiple language options on their toll-free customer service line for the sole purpose of dealing with illegal immigrant customers? Does anyone really believe that?

If someone could prove to you that they entered this country legally, would it be okay for them to speak another language or display the flag of their homeland?

If the answer is "no" then your issue is not about immigration, it's about xenophobia.

 

[Duckfan-in-Chicago]

Cute, but somehow, when the author of the piece said "I have to press "one" to hear my bank talk to me in English", I don't think he was talking about products marketed specifically to Asian countries. And with the NYS DOL, look, Spanish is still the first of the many other languages available, and the only language actually used on the initial greeting.

Besides, you can google all you want, of course you'll be able to find some other examples. My "have you ever" comment was not meant to imply that it never happens, but that we all know full well that the language that people get all up in arms about is almost always Spanish.

Can't speak for anyone else, but if the search feature worked you'd see that I almost always mention Polish illegals on these threads. There were plenty of Polish and Russian flags flying at the actual rallies here.

If the search feature worked you could also see that both my MIL and FIL were born in Poland. I see the abuses first hand and hear stories all the time. My MIL, who is a U.S. citizen now btw just retired from about 30 years of cleaning office buildings downtown. One of those jobs that Americans won't do. My wife has a lot of cousins here that do that type of work. They're here legally.

Every poll I see has about 70% or more of the country against illegals in one shape or another. This can be spun as racism against Mexicans all day. And of course they're doing the jobs that no one else will do. The number of illegals are increasing in every state. How did they do the work in Iowa prior to the illegals coming there to do it? The explosion in that state is just in the past decade.

People can try to change the subject to talking about Haleburton. How about the fact that we can't pay Americans to pick the crops because the cost will go up so much, and yet David Letterman and Scotty Pippen are being paid by our government to not grow crops because we don't want the poor family farmer to go under?

 

[LadyShiva]

When you start bringing up issues like "they don't speak English" and "they're waving other countries' flags" though, you sound more like a bigot than a person with a concern about illegal immigration.

Do all legal immigrants speak English? It's only the illegal ones that don't? Verizion has multiple language options on their toll-free customer service line for the sole purpose of dealing with illegal immigrant customers? Does anyone really believe that?

If someone could prove to you that they entered this country legally, would it be okay for them to speak another language or display the flag of their homeland?

If the answer is "no" then your issue is not about immigration, it's about xenophobia.

The US Citizenship test is given in English. You must learn English to take the test.

And yes, it does rile me up to see other flags being waved by supporters IN THIS COUNTRY. You pledge allegiance to flags. Kinda comes across as a conflict of interests. I personally don't see people waving both a XYZ country's flag AND the US flag. I see one or the other.

Brandie

 

[Tigger Woods]

I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with seed. Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and easily accessible food.

But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue. Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs, the table...everywhere. Then some of the birds turned mean: They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket. And others birds were boisterous and loud: They sat on the feeder and squawked and
screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food.

After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds wer e gone. I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built all
over the patio. Soon, the back yard was like it used to be...quiet, serene and no one demanding their rights to a free meal.

Now lets see...our government gives out free food, subsidized housing, free medical care, free education and allows anyone born here to be a automatic citizen. Then the illegals came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families: you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor: you child's2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English: Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to press "one" to hear my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than "Old Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free liberties.

Maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder

I honestly don't care who they are or where they come from. If they are here illegally they need to go home.

 

[StrollPatrolMom]

I believe this will be THE deciding factor in the 08 elections.

I think the American people (and um I mean actual citizens not the "undocumented" Americans that one side of the aisle is trying to put upon us...) realize there are way broader social and economic long term implications to this problem.

I do not begrudge people wanting to come here and have a better life...I understand why this is happening...but at the end of the day it doesn't change the real problems being created by the massive influx of people. America needs to regain control over who we have in this country and who we have coming into this country. Please tell me again why funds were set aside to build a border fence and N-O-T-H-I-N-G has happened in the 8 or so months since that bill was passed...

I'm bilingual. After college I worked in a small city that was largely Puerto Rican and Dominican...I cannot begin to tell you the problems with crime and fraud I personally witnessed in a tiny microcosim on this city. It never ceased to amaze me that people would walk in speaking Spanish right away when I am clearly not Hispanic...but thats the expectation we've created.

I'm all for diversity and America being a melting pot, thats the tradition upon which we were founded....but we are a society of laws, and people need to follow and respect them. Period.

 

[StrollPatrolMom]

I also don't like the idea of using profiling to try to catch illegals. It's a dangerous sort of slippery slope.
QUOTE]

I don't really think anyone is advocating that...but geez louise we get illegals in custody on criminal charges and just let them back out on the streets. At the VERY least I think we can agree criminal aliens shouldn't be released to run around the streets. Strike one you break the law to come into the country and strike two you break more laws when you're here...and yet we still let you go? I love how some certain politicians advocate "amnesty" bills to "bring illegals out of the shadows" Um, hello? do we live in the same country? illegals can go to school, collect social services, get credit cards, get mortgages...so please explain to me exactly where the shadows are illegals are living in...thanks.

 

[va32h]

The US Citizenship test is given in English. You must learn English to take the test.

And yes, it does rile me up to see other flags being waved by supporters IN THIS COUNTRY. You pledge allegiance to flags. Kinda comes across as a conflict of interests. I personally don't see people waving both a XYZ country's flag AND the US flag. I see one or the other.

Brandie

So if a person can speak English but chooses not to - is that acceptable to you?

FTR, my daughter has classmates whose parents are here legally (from various countries) and do not speak a lick of English.

As for flags - the Pledge of Allegiance is not mandatory. I personally find the notion of swearing loyalty to a piece of fabric totally at odds with what America is supposed to represent. The freedom to fly whatever flag you want seems to me to be an excellent example of what America is.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

I believe this will be THE deciding factor in the 08 elections.
I think the American people (and um I mean actual citizens not the "undocumented" Americans that one side of the aisle is trying to put upon us...) realize there are way broader social and economic long term implications to this problem.

I do not begrudge people wanting to come here and have a better life...I understand why this is happening...but at the end of the day it doesn't change the real problems being created by the massive influx of people. America needs to regain control over who we have in this country and who we have coming into this country. Please tell me again why funds were set aside to build a border fence and N-O-T-H-I-N-G has happened in the 8 or so months since that bill was passed...

I'm bilingual. After college I worked in a small city that was largely Puerto Rican and Dominican...I cannot begin to tell you the problems with crime and fraud I personally witnessed in a tiny microcosim on this city. It never ceased to amaze me that people would walk in speaking Spanish right away when I am clearly not Hispanic...but thats the expectation we've created.

I'm all for diversity and America being a melting pot, thats the tradition upon which we were founded....but we are a society of laws, and people need to follow and respect them. Period.

Actually, from some of the polls I've seen, illegal immigration runs a distant 4th to the Iraq War, the economy, & affordable healthcare options as far as importance in the upcoming elections. The media feeds the beast because it whips up the fringes and is great for ratings, but according to much research, it's simply not seen as burning an issue as they would have you believe..

 

[GeorgeG]

So if a person can speak English but chooses not to - is that acceptable to you?

FTR, my daughter has classmates whose parents are here legally (from various countries) and do not speak a lick of English.

As for flags - the Pledge of Allegiance is not mandatory. I personally find the notion of swearing loyalty to a piece of fabric totally at odds with what America is supposed to represent. The freedom to fly whatever flag you want seems to me to be an excellent example of what America is.

My son has lived in Sweden for about 10 years. English is a required subject in Swedish schools and many people there speak English pretty well. Still, my son was required to spend most of his first year in Sweden learning the language and customs of that country.

A few weeks ago I had the opportunity to spend about an hour in the front office lobby of the local elementary school. While I was there, there was a spanish speaking woman with her two young daughters. None of them spoke or understood a bit of English. A spanish speaking teacher was trying to help them get situated and it seems the girls had been students there just weeks prior, then moved to Tennessee, and were now back (I'm guessing Tennessee wasn't as accommodating). I couldn't help wondering how these girls were going to be put into an English speaking education system.

Anyhow, it seems appropriate that the first step in absorbing immigrants (of the legal variety, of course) into our school systems and other social programs would be to insist they first spend a year learning English and our customs. Now, this can be done either before they arrive here or during their first year in this country. Either way, they don't get placed or receive government funded benefits until they meet minimum requirements (that should be an incentive to learn before they get here). I shouldn't have to know Spanish to order a Big Mac or KFC in my own country.