A question for teachers, any grade, doesn't matter...

[Papa Deuce]

I was talking to a friend of mine who teaches 9th grade, and she says that she is thinking about quitting her job just because she has such a hard time in dealing with one particular student. She said he makes her job miserable.... I didn't want to get into it with her, but if one kid was so bad, wouldn't the school take care of this in some way?

She said that this boy knows exactly where the line can be drawn before he gets in real trouble, and he pushes it to the limit just about every day.

How do teachers / schools deal with this?

 

[MM27]

I don't know how other schools deal with it, but from my experience, the teachers that can handle the "problem students" usually end up with the majority of them.

My school doesn't suspend kids unless it's a major (and their term major is not the normal defintion) thing. It can be frustrating, especially when one or two kids can ruin the entire dynamic of an entire class. In elementary, there is so much more that can be taken away on the teacher level than in high school. I had one child for example that I left out of my class party yesterday. One of my other students even commented how peaceful it was without him.

My principal and vp are really no help. If you send a kid to the vp, they usually come back saying how much fun they had. One teacher said that one of her kids came back and said he got to eat some Christmas cookies. Nice punishment huh?

 

[JoyG]

She said that this boy knows exactly where the line can be drawn before he gets in real trouble, and he pushes it to the limit just about every day.

How do teachers / schools deal with this?

Well if the teacher really complains about it, she might be able to get the child moved to another classroom....but then he's just another teacher's problem.

I agree with the above poster that said the teachers with good classroom management usually get rewarded with the biggest behavior problems.

In public schools, the reality is, they have to be educated...somewhere. If not in one classroom, it will be in another.

Also, statistics say about half of all new teachers will quit within the first five years. Is your friend a new teacher?

 

[Pineapple Princess]

I call those type of students "nightmare kids."
Yes, teachers do quit due to those kind of kids. I actually quit mid year once due to one. It was beyond horrible. The kid pushed things SO much, and like the kid you are talking about, seemed to know right where the line was. I had chairs, desks and other items thrown at me. I was sworn at and bullied. When he pulled a knife on me and only got a slap on the wrist I put in my notice. I was told that since he was only 9 he didn't know any better. Isn't that rediculous?!
So much of teaching is the luck of the draw. A class can make you or break you. One or two kids in a class can do the same thing.
I am very fortunate to have a great class this year. I feel bad for the teacher next door. Right at the end of school she had a kid throw a fit. I took her kids to the bus and when I got back he was still on the ground crying and kicking the floor. Oh the joys of 1st graders...
So what do you do? The truth is, these days there is little I can do. If the child doesn't care about possible consequences, and face it, without parent support there is very little I can do in that realm, then there is nothing I can do.
*edit*
I mean, I can take away recess but really, if the kid doesn't care how does that change things?

 

[bluerendezvous]

I have been teaching for 19 years, and I am "rewarded" with many students that are perceived to be difficult. I'm also wondering if the teacher in question is relatively new.

My advice would be the same as from my mentor teacher from many moons ago...

There is always next year. A different class will present a new set of challenges, but you won't be challenged by that little darling! Just wait until next year.

Oh, also, some of my most difficult students have returned to me and confessed that I was one of their favorite teachers! Who knew?

 

[WDWAurora]

They send them to me, or come to me for help. I'm a school psych/behavior specialist. Never a dull moment!

 

[Papa Deuce]

Also, statistics say about half of all new teachers will quit within the first five years. Is your friend a new teacher?

I think about 6 or 7 years....

What is REALLY bothering her, is that TWICE this year so far, he has "bumped" into her in the hall way, but immediately apologized. She thinks that it isn't an accident, but retaliation for trying to have him disciplined for other matters.

 

[mytwotinks]

I don't think I would have believed that kids could terrorize teachers so much till my own kids started school.

We had a 4th grade teacher walk into her classroom last year with one of her students hiding behind the door with a knife. He had the whole class terrorized because he had been telling them that he was going to kill the teacher. She took him to the office, he was sent back to class with practically no punishment.

She left the class in the care of a para and quit right there on the spot. She told the principal that if that child stayed in the classroom she wouldn't be there. I guarantee that if I had a child in that class I would not have left them in that atmosphere.

We are a small school district and this is just my 5th year to even have kids in the system. I know of 5 incidents that parents have had to get the police involved because our administration does nothing to protect the other children and the teacher. The focus seems to always be on protecting the rights of the abuser and never on the safety of those being abused.

 

[Papa Deuce]

We had a 4th grade teacher walk into her classroom last year with one of her students hiding behind the door with a knife. He had the whole class terrorized because he had been telling them that he was going to kill the teacher.

As late as last year? I would think that with the constant OVERREACTION in schools these days that he would have been expelled.

 

[mytwotinks]

As late as last year? I would think that with the constant OVERREACTION in schools these days that he would have been expelled.

I was shocked myself. I found out by mentioning to a friend what a little pain in the !!!!! the little kid my neighbor started babysitting is. She couldn't believe that I hadn't heard about him and his "adventure" I think she called it.

I am not really that shocked though. The kid is 11 and he yells at us everytime we go outside. He has even called my husband names (not g-rated either!) and it has gotten to the point where my dd5 is afraid to go outside. I am very close to calling the police if he continues to harass my kids. I am thinking that it probably won't do any good though. If the parents haven't gotten control of him by now I am thinking it isn't going to happen.

I think the reason that he was not expelled from school has something to do with his IEP plan with the school. We seem to be a district that considers poor behavior a birth defect.

 

[Disneycrazymom]

The teacher needs to be sure to document EVERYTHING that is or has happened and what she has done in response. Also she should talk to the school administration and counselor. Again document, leave a paper trail. This can help the child get any help that is out there and also protect her if needed.

These kids can really make the year seem long for her and the classmates. It is difficult for everyone involved. I hope she can relax and enjoy the break. To return with enough courage to finish the year. The other kids need a good leader to help them make it through the year. I always feel so sorry for the good ones that end up being with the difficult ones all day, following from class to class. I believe this is a real problem in our education system. It doesn't help anyone to learn better!

 

[SunshineOR]

I feel very strongly that this is a terrible problem, and I think it's because schools have reached a point where they do not discipline kids anymore. When a teacher tells me about a student who has done something wrong, I'll ask, and what was the consequence? "Oh nothing, we can't use time out, we're not supposed to send them to the office, and what they did isn't really THAT bad. They're only ____ years old and don't really know any better. They didn't really cross the line. We need to TEACH the child to behave better, so we had a talk." In the meantime, kids like to push the boundaries and push more and more because they know no matter what they do, the worst they'll get is a talk or a warning. It means the teacher is stressed and upset and the kids aren't sweating it at all. It should be the other way around--students should be sweating and teachers should be empowered and in charge. I wish schools would toughen up and give quick and harsh consequences for misbehavior and let students know misbehavior won't be tolerated.

The way schools work would be like posting signs on the highways that only say, Be Responsible. It's too open to interpretation and people would be driving way too fast all the time just to see how fast they could go without getting caught. So, speed limits are posted. The posted speed limits would also be ineffective if people knew that if they got pulled over, all they'd ever get is a lecture. In order to achieve the goal of getting drivers to drive responsibly, not only are clear speed limits posted, but drivers know that at any time they could be stopped and given clear consequences for breaking the rule. Drivers know that they can't drive faster and faster every day until they're going 30 mph over the speed limit before they get a ticket. Drivers know that any day, any speeding, could result in consequences. Schools need to operate in more the same manner if they want to get students under control and keep teachers. I bet police officers would quit in frustration too if they were told to go keep speeders under control, but there was no set speed limit and no way to enforce drivers who drove irresponsibly other than to "talk" to them.

Edited to add: I'm a former H.S. teacher who only lasted five years before frustration drove me to quit. I was tired of sending kids out of my classroom with an office referral and having them come strolling back in the next day with smug smiles announcing that nothing happened to them.

 

[Sandy321]

I believe it - my neighbor is a 9th grade English teacher who works in a depressed area - and one student knows how far to push - the mom came in and screamed at the teacher!!

I worked in that district for 2 years - I was in a 7th grade science class - was shoved up against the metal file cabinets by a student - the principal called a meeting - the dad came in, reeking of pot - but I learned that this boys mom was in jail because 2 days before he shoved me against the locker, his mom attacked him with a baseball bat - this child knew nothing but violence.

I knew I couldnt help, or change this student, and I felt he would be better served on another team - denied... so I left! I also had a student who was so obnoxious - and I "wrote and documented everything" his reaction "you cant give me detention - you dont know who my mom is" and he was right, no matter what he did, his mom got him off!!

so "apples and trees' we live in a society that is more "not my child" or not in my backyard... rules dont apply to me.. to the extreme of teachers being jailed for abuse! all over the line that makes the news!

 

[graygables]

I could write a book (and might someday), but I quit teaching (high school) 13 years ago and never looked back. When my older 2 were younger and in public school, we called their principal "Marshmallow Man". His response to a death threat against my 2nd grader was to have the boy (expelled from high school, finally) sit in the office for a few hours. There is no "moral contract with society" anymore. The police/speed limit analogy is perfect and exactly right. Expectations and repercussions get lower and lower every year, which is why we opted to homeschool.

 

[Pineapple Princess]

As late as last year? I would think that with the constant OVERREACTION in schools these days that he would have been expelled.

The kid who pulled the knife on me had an IEP. I went to meeting after meeting about him and how dangerous he was not only to me but to the students in the class. He had broken his 2nd grade teachers wrist, but gee, mentally he just wasn't there enough to know better.
No one would do anything.

 

[DVC Sadie]

The kid who pulled the knife on me had an IEP. I went to meeting after meeting about him and how dangerous he was not only to me but to the students in the class. He had broken his 2nd grade teachers wrist, but gee, mentally he just wasn't there enough to know better.
No one would do anything.

I feel for you!

That child needs to have psychiatric help before he becomes a psychiopath. To allow any child to live without consequences is setting them up to fail in life and to me is a form of abuse.

 

[disney junky]

At this point, I wouldn't quit over one kid, but I'd probably be more proactive than reactive with a problem child. One of the joys of secondary is often they just go away. In elementary where they have one teacher all day, it's tough to hide that kid or hide from that kid.

Someone lumped everything together and said schools don't discipline kids any more. Let me tell you, teachers try, but we are overruled by administrators who are bullied by parents, advocates, school soliciters as well as the kids. And kids know their rights better than the teachers do.

My son sometimes talks about going back to school to get his teaching certification, and I tell him not to. He sees what I do and he thinks it would be fun, but it's taken me years to develop the rapport and reputation I have with both the kids and their parents. I think I'm fair, but honestly, it would only take one kid, one thoughtless response on my part, and the whole thing could be in jeopardy, and that's in the back of my mind most of the time.

There are tons of things that go on in school that don't get reported, and it's all because administrators don't want the negative publicity. One local school recently was under fire because the number of times the police were called to the school was in the 100's but the number of times reported to the state (a requirement) was 12. Go figure.

Our policy here is if a student misses 20 consecutive days, he is dropped. We have one who misses her 20 days, but because she needs to be enrolled in school or she is breaking her probation, she gets the letter and then re-enrolls. The school gets money and she makes probation and it happens every 20 school days. She'll be 21 in January. I think her kids may already be in the elementary school (just kidding, but it's funny to consider).

And that is just one story....

 

[MM27]

As late as last year? I would think that with the constant OVERREACTION in schools these days that he would have been expelled.

While some schools are very much into Zero Tolerance, not all are there.
*I had a student bring a switchblade to school and was flashing it at lunch.
*We had an incident where we went on a field trip and some kids that didn't go were left with a substitute. When we got back the class where the kids were staying with the sub stunk of smoke. Turns out they were lighting paper and other kids bookbacks on fire while we were gone. Their punishment? The teacher should have been watching them closer.
*We had 3 third grade boys that were lifting the skirt of a girl in their class and inappropriately touching her. The punishment was the girl was moved to a special ed class for the remainder of the year where she would sit and complete the work that her teacher would provide for her. Yes THE GIRL was moved. The boys got lunch detention which is very common in my school. The girl's mother was convinced by our VP that the school would handle it and she should not report it to the police (as the mother had planned)
*I had a girl this year that came to me and said a boy in my class was telling everyone that he was going to rape her and was sharing all the things he would do to her every night (4th grade). He was told by VP that he needs to stop saying things to her (that was his punishment )

When I tried to push for a harder punishment, it was announced at a faculty meeting that "little things like this were already handled and some people want a rape kit pulled out" I was furious.

Someone lumped everything together and said schools don't discipline kids any more. Let me tell you, teachers try, but we are overruled by administrators who are bullied by parents, advocates, school soliciters as well as the kids. And kids know their rights better than the teachers do.


There are tons of things that go on in school that don't get reported, and it's all because administrators don't want the negative publicity. One local school recently was under fire because the number of times the police were called to the school was in the 100's but the number of times reported to the state (a requirement) was 12. Go figure.

You know, I laugh sometimes at the posts people put on the DIS about problems their kids have in school and think to myself "If they only knew". While the problems may seem big to them, I would love to have those issues in place of what I have at my school.

Administrators are afraid. We were told at a faculty meeting once that they will not suspend kids because then the superintendent gets on them about it. So every September we get the speech about handling our own discipline, blah, blah, blah. That would be fine with me, as long as when I did discipline, I wasn't called on it.

 

[Talking Hands]

This student needs to be in an alternative school for children that are severely behaviorly handicapped. I have had students removed from the classroom for less and I am a sub. Stopped subbing at my local elementary because of lack of admin support. The kid in question was my across the street neighbor's. Talked to the homeowner (the family rented) and the lease was not renewed.

 

[MM27]

This student needs to be in an alternative school for children that are severely behaviorly handicapped. I have had students removed from the classroom for less and I am a sub. Stopped subbing at my local elementary because of lack of admin support. The kid in question was my across the street neighbor's. Talked to the homeowner (the family rented) and the lease was not renewed.

Everything comes down to what the parents want. If you have a parent that refuses a change in placement, it would involve taking the case to court (something they will not do in my district)

That's great if you as a sub were able to make that kind of change, but that's not reality in many places.