A question for Christians

[daisax]

I have come to that viewpoint not because I have been told that by others but by reading the Bible. I think it is very clear on what you must do to be saved. I'm not sure how one might read it and not get that out of it but maybe you are right...or maybe it is not what they want it to say.

But people of all the different sects, scholars of all the different sects, have read the Bible and reached sometimes very drastic differences of opinion as to what it says and what it means. If it's as simple as "read it, the answer is there"... why all the confusion and differing interpretations?

However, for me, thinking if I do A,B,C, and D will get me into Heaven, you doing X,Y, and Z and someone else doing 1,2,3 seems to me like why would God not have a specific path?

Except that's the very world we live in. If God wanted it straightforward, surely He would have been capable of the utmost clarity. He chose not to, for whatever reason. Who's to say there aren't many specific paths that are just fine in His eyes?

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

And perhaps that gate is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Also, Jesus compared the likelihood of a rich man going to heaven with a camel passing through the eye of a needle. One would think this would lead folks to seek lives of poverty, but there are certainly a lot of Christians buying those Prosperity books and thinking God wants them to be rich.

I'm interested in all the varied beliefs. I just chafe at the conviction many people have that it's so easy and straightforward, and that anybody who thinks it's complicated is missing the boat and worse, likely not going to damned. Some of us are comfortable with the idea of complication. Comforted even, maybe. Part of what I like about the Catholic viewpoint is that it stresses NOT having all the answers and trusting. Indeed, my favorite phrase is "the sure and certain hope of resurrection." I think it captures the whole concept beautifully.

 

[Buckalew11]

But people of all the different sects, scholars of all the different sects, have read the Bible and reached sometimes very drastic differences of opinion as to what it says and what it means. If it's as simple as "read it, the answer is there"... why all the confusion and differing interpretations?



Except that's the very world we live in. If God wanted it straightforward, surely He would have been capable of the utmost clarity. He chose not to, for whatever reason. Who's to say there aren't many specific paths that are just fine in His eyes?



And perhaps that gate is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Also, Jesus compared the likelihood of a rich man going to heaven with a camel passing through the eye of a needle. One would think this would lead folks to seek lives of poverty, but there are certainly a lot of Christians buying those Prosperity books and thinking God wants them to be rich.

I'm interested in all the varied beliefs. I just chafe at the conviction many people have that it's so easy and straightforward, and that anybody who thinks it's complicated is missing the boat and worse, likely not going to damned. Some of us are comfortable with the idea of complication. Comforted even, maybe. Part of what I like about the Catholic viewpoint is that it stresses NOT having all the answers and trusting. Indeed, my favorite phrase is "the sure and certain hope of resurrection." I think it captures the whole concept beautifully.

I just can't answer your first question. I really do not understand why it seems so clear to me and not to others who are searching. I do not mean that snobby either. I just truly can't understand it because it seems as plain as the nose on your face to me. I would be interested in others thoughts thoughts though.

You are right--it is the very world we live in. There are no specific lines in the sand anymore and everything goes. However, I do not feel that is the way God is. Again, I think He was/is quite clear so I can't give you a differing view on that.

Actually, I agree with you...I think that IS the "gate"--Loving God and Loving others.

I am not someone who buys into prosperity teachings so again, I'm out on that one. I actually wonder about money and christianity often...

I think i do sound like I'm coming off that this is so simple and to make it so hard you are missing the boat. And I am sorry it sounds that way. I just do not know any other way to say it. I think God is pretty clear that He wants our love and devotion because is is God Almighty. I do not have all the answers but I just honestly believe that God was clear on salvation's path.

Please explain the phrase "the sure and certain hope of resurrection" because it sounds like the words " sure and certain" means someone believes this is the truth and that through Jesus' resurrection we are sure and certain of hope (and that hope is the Blessed Hope.) Thanks!

 

[dcentity2000]

I find it intriguing that political philosophies permeate into religious belief systems.



Rich::

 

[jimmiej]

I find it intriguing that political philosophies permeate into religious belief systems.



Rich::

Actually, some of our best friends from our church are staunch Democrats & have boldly informed us they're voting for Obama. Although we agree on our religious beliefs, we're polar opposites politically. We don't talk politics.

 

[dcentity2000]

Actually, some of our best friends from our church are staunch Democrats & have boldly informed us they're voting for Obama. Although we agree on our religious beliefs, we're polar opposites politically. We don't talk politics.

Good point. I fear my statement was a little sweeping and generalising.



Rich::

 

[jimmiej]

How do you personally think G-d will deal with Jewish people during this time?

The book of Revelation tells us there will be 144,000 Jewish believers spreading the Gospel during the Tribulation (chapters 7 & 14).

There's Biblical basis for believing God will judge the Jews just like the Gentiles, based on Christ. There's also some evidence that God will stick with the original covenant He had with the Jews. I honestly am not sure.

 

[Aidensmom]

And perhaps that gate is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

I would agree with you that this is the essence of "the gate". I think a lot of times on these threads people actually have the same ideas, just different ways of expressing it. If someone was not "saved" as I understand that word to mean, I don't think they would love God with all their heart, soul, and mind. If they do, well then I would think they were "saved". In other words, they pretty much mean the same thing in my understanding.

(Just for reference, I am a non-denominational Christian who grew up Catholic, and consider myself "saved" by what I understand "saved" to mean.)

 

[MzDiz]

I don't think there is a general answer to this. While I would like to say that anyone who has not heard automatically "goes to heaven", I kind of have a hard time with anyone who thinks its OK to kill someone else, etc. I don't have the answer, and as I am pretty sure God is not a DIS member, I don't think anyone else here does either.


For what it is worth, as a Christian, I believe "Heaven" is being in the presence of God as He is understood in Christianity, and "Hell" is not being in the presence of God, as He is understood by Christianity. I have a really hard time understanding why people get worked up about the whole Christian heaven/hell concept if they don't hold Christian beliefs in the first place.

If someone is not a Christian, why do they give a hoot?

Because I want to understand. There are a lot of opinions of other religions/beliefs that I struggle to wrap my brain around and this is one of them.

 

[Aidensmom]

Because I want to understand. There are a lot of opinions of other religions/beliefs that I struggle to wrap my brain around and this is one of them.

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh with that.

Sometimes on this board I just get tired of hearing how judgmental I am because I hold the beliefs of a religion. I just can't wrap my mind around why some people are offended by a God and a Heaven they don't believe exists in the first place. I am truly sorry if I jumped to that conclusion.

I think it is great that you really want to know why people believe certain things, I find it very fascinating to find out different belief systems of different religions.

 

[LuvN~Travel]

But people of all the different sects, scholars of all the different sects, have read the Bible and reached sometimes very drastic differences of opinion as to what it says and what it means. If it's as simple as "read it, the answer is there"... why all the confusion and differing interpretations?



Except that's the very world we live in. If God wanted it straightforward, surely He would have been capable of the utmost clarity. He chose not to, for whatever reason. Who's to say there aren't many specific paths that are just fine in His eyes?



And perhaps that gate is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Also, Jesus compared the likelihood of a rich man going to heaven with a camel passing through the eye of a needle. One would think this would lead folks to seek lives of poverty, but there are certainly a lot of Christians buying those Prosperity books and thinking God wants them to be rich.

I'm interested in all the varied beliefs. I just chafe at the conviction many people have that it's so easy and straightforward, and that anybody who thinks it's complicated is missing the boat and worse, likely not going to damned. Some of us are comfortable with the idea of complication. Comforted even, maybe. Part of what I like about the Catholic viewpoint is that it stresses NOT having all the answers and trusting. Indeed, my favorite phrase is "the sure and certain hope of resurrection." I think it captures the whole concept beautifully.

This is one of those questions that confuse many ppl other than yourself.
A lot of it has to do with the various versions of the Bible and how it was interpreted over the years.
One of the very best ways really is to dig deeper into the originals written in the Hebrew, the Roman and the Aramaic. So many examples given both in the Old and New Testaments are often given through the eyes of a Jewish person and refers to so much that is Jewish thought. During the translations over the years it has been easy for many people to translate into their own language, but so much 'inference' or 'flavor' that was found in the original has been 'lost' or reinterpreted by scribes. Just different verb forms from on language to another can cause complications.

That's one reason why its nice to run across Christian authors who have taken the time to dig deeper, really learn the background behind some of the passages and how it actually pertained to the Jewish people, and then the New Testament people later as well.

Kim

 

[frndshpcptn]

The book of Revelation tells us there will be 144,000 Jewish believers spreading the Gospel during the Tribulation (chapters 7 & 14).

There's Biblical basis for believing God will judge the Jews just like the Gentiles, based on Christ. There's also some evidence that God will stick with the original covenant He had with the Jews. I honestly am not sure.

Thanks for being so willing to discuss your viewpoints on this. I think it's great that we can come here and have such a good converstaion and learn so much about other people and other people's beliefs.

I truly am learning from this thread. I never knew so much of this and I think it's interesting to hear about other people's faiths.

 

[Laura]

This is one of those questions that confuse many ppl other than yourself.
A lot of it has to do with the various versions of the Bible and how it was interpreted over the years.
One of the very best ways really is to dig deeper into the originals written in the Hebrew, the Roman and the Aramaic. So many examples given both in the Old and New Testaments are often given through the eyes of a Jewish person and refers to so much that is Jewish thought. During the translations over the years it has been easy for many people to translate into their own language, but so much 'inference' or 'flavor' that was found in the original has been 'lost' or reinterpreted by scribes. Just different verb forms from on language to another can cause complications.

That's one reason why its nice to run across Christian authors who have taken the time to dig deeper, really learn the background behind some of the passages and how it actually pertained to the Jewish people, and then the New Testament people later as well.

Kim

I think you meant Greek, not Roman? I've been re-reading the Bible myself (though I'm no longer Christian) and trying to understand the Old Testament/Tanakh from the Jewish perspective--so I got a Hebrew-English Tanakh and for good measure, a Greek-English New Testament and a regular Christian Bible (New International Version). Now I can't read Hebrew, of course, but I have it. I think a lot of Christians look at the Old Testament through a totally different perspective, and some of it mistranslated.

 

[daisax]

I think a lot of Christians look at the Old Testament through a totally different perspective, and some of it mistranslated.

There's a famous quote from some school administrator -- I always forget if it was Texas or Arkansas, but I think it was one of those... "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!"

 

[Laura]

There's a famous quote from some school administrator -- I always forget if it was Texas or Arkansas, but I think it was one of those... "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!"

 

[jimmiej]

I think this thread illustrates the differences in Biblical interpretation that exist and the differences in denominational teachings. As much as I know that Joe, Buck and Jim believe what they have professed here and I'm not arguing that-I can't say those same words. To me, that would be taking a decision out of God's hands and putting it in my own.

Fits, I was thinking about this today. You seem to be implying that I and others have attempted to wrest away from God the determination of our eternal fate. Nothing could be further from the truth! Not to mention, that would be impossible.

We just believe God has already told us (all of us) how He determines that, in His Word. This is how you are reuntited with Me. This is how you are made righteous in My eyes. This is how you are born-again. If you do this, you will saved.

It's not about control-God's in control. It's simply a choice. Once we have made the choice to accept God's (free & undeserved) gift, we have God's assurance of eternal life.

 

[Talking Hands]

I wouldn't need to say anything as His Son already paid my debt so I can enter heaven.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Fits, I was thinking about this today. You seem to be implying that I and others have attempted to wrest away from God the determination of our eternal fate. Nothing could be further from the truth! Not to mention, that would be impossible.

We just believe God has already told us (all of us) how He determines that, in His Word. This is how you are reuntited with Me. This is how you are made righteous in My eyes. This is how you are born-again. If you do this, you will saved.

It's not about control-God's in control. It's simply a choice. Once we have made the choice to accept God's (free & undeserved) gift, we have God's assurance of eternal life.

I believe in an omnipotent God, who can do anything He wants. If God wants to let someone in to heaven whether they followed the directions in those specific Bible verses or not-He can do that. That's why I don't really think about what's going to happen after I die. It's in God's hands. As I've said before-I follow the teachings of my faith to the best of my ability and leave the rest to God. I don't think about what's going to happen to other people when they die. It's in God's hands. If they ask me about my faith, I'll certainly share, but I'm not looking for opportunities to bring it up and tell them all about how I'm going to Heaven and they're not unless they believe just like I do-because I don't know that any of that is true.

 

[Buckalew11]

I think God has the power to do whatever He wants also. It just seems against His nature to not have a consistent way for people to enter His heaven. God had a specific way the Ark of the Covenant was to be handled and carried. If you screwed that up, it was over. Throughout the Bible God gives specific instructions and wants obedience from us. It just seems to me that He remains the same today as always.

As a society we are wishy-washy in a lot of "drawing a line in the sand" type things. We keep moving the line and bending the rules. I think we are so used to this now, we think God will do it too. It is JMO that He won't. He told Adam not to eat the fruit of that tree. they ate and god didn't say "OK, well, I know I put it there and you were tempted by it so I sorta set you up for that one. So, I'll tell you what--I'll give you one more chance. But if you eat of the fruit this time, You'll be banished from the garden."

Of course, I know that a lot of people do not take things quite so literally so maybe that is why I see things differently.

Here is one verse that gives me assurance: 1 John 5:11-13 (NIV)

11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[JoyG]

Actually, some of our best friends from our church are staunch Democrats & have boldly informed us they're voting for Obama. Although we agree on our religious beliefs, we're polar opposites politically. We don't talk politics.

Heck, I might actually vote for Obama myself!

 

[Fitswimmer]

I think God has the power to do whatever He wants also. It just seems against His nature to not have a consistent way for people to enter His heaven. God had a specific way the Ark of the Covenant was to be handled and carried. If you screwed that up, it was over. Throughout the Bible God gives specific instructions and wants obedience from us. It just seems to me that He remains the same today as always.

As a society we are wishy-washy in a lot of "drawing a line in the sand" type things. We keep moving the line and bending the rules. I think we are so used to this now, we think God will do it too. It is JMO that He won't. He told Adam not to eat the fruit of that tree. they ate and god didn't say "OK, well, I know I put it there and you were tempted by it so I sorta set you up for that one. So, I'll tell you what--I'll give you one more chance. But if you eat of the fruit this time, You'll be banished from the garden."

Of course, I know that a lot of people do not take things quite so literally so maybe that is why I see things differently.

Here is one verse that gives me assurance: 1 John 5:11-13 (NIV)

11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

But can you see why people have so much trouble believing in a God that would banish you for carrying the Ark wrong??

We're like that as humans-we don't forgive easily. We want people to toe the line and we can be rigid. Those demanding, punishing images of God seem more like projections of our own human attitudes then the attitude of a God who is so much more loving than we could ever hope to be.

I believe God is bigger than us.