A happy day for gays everywhere!

[kjetjl]

These were the same questions asked prior to the first interracial mariiage...and interfaith marriage.

Personally....I have no problem with polygamy. If the adults involved can make it work....bully for them.

.

This is an answer to one of my questions. Thank you. You don't have an issue with polygamy between consenting adults.

So you would see your reasons for same sex marriage in the same light as someone who would be in favor of polygamous marriage, excluding, of course, any case of child abuse.

I don't necessarily agree with you but I can respect that. Sorry to offend with the word lifestyle. Obviously, it doesn't have the same negative meaning to me as it does to you but I will be careful of using it in the future.
Thanks again.

 

[kjetjl]

OK, here are my reasons for not thinking legalizing polygamy is a good idea.

The laws are currently written to apply to a two person marriage (be they the same or opposite sex). Those laws include specific inheritance rights, debt/community property rights, health decision making, survivor benefit rights, etc. All of which, are geared to a two person relationship. The only change in these laws, if any, that would be required for same sex marriage is to de-genderize them. The basic laws themselves, as they apply to marriage rights, would be unchanged. It also would not change any age laws, regarding age of consent. The state has a responsibility to protect minors, and does so through laws that declare at what age someone may enter into a binding legal agreement, including marriage.

For polygamists, laws would need to be totally re-written for plural legal marriages. For instance, (assuming a male with multiple wives) if a husband were to be in a situation where a dire medical decision was necessary. If those wives disagreed, which would prevail. Who would receive survivor benefits, would any amount be divided by all surviving spouses, making the benefit basically useless in many cases? If one of the widows remarried, would the benefits increase to the other widows? Not an easy task to address all of those situations without a total re-write of existing laws.

Thank you for your answer. I was viewing it in a completely different way.

 

[VMK_Mouse]

I noticed that nobody has posted on my side of the fence but I disagree with California's decision. I have homosexual and lesbian co-workers and friends that I believe are some of the best human beings that I have ever met but I do not agree with their lifestyle.

I just do not believe that God meant for two men or two women to come together when He created the instituion of marriage. I believe that he reserved the institution of marriage for a man and a woman. Now am I being hurt by gay couples being married? No. It just goes against what I believe is right and what I am trying to teach my 8 year old son.

I pray for all people to be happy and live in peace. But most of all I want our country to be one that pleases God. I hope nobody is offended by my opinion. Especially Pete and Kevin and the DIS Podcast team because I love what you guys do. I just had to give my opinion on this topic.

This opinon is one that I share. Except the co-workers portion. In my case, it is my brother who I am very close to. Can't wait to see him in WDW next year!!

 

[kjetjl]

We are talking about adults above the age of consent. If you are looking to debate the age of consent...it's an entirely different topic. Stop lumping the two things together.

.

I lumped the children into the polygamy situation but I was thinking about a case a few (several?) months ago about a younger girl who was married and had a child with her husband. I cannot remember the exact age but I want to say she was 14. The husband was quite a bit older. Her mother gave consent for her to get married but the state was trying to put the husband in jail because it was technically legally "child rape." And it got me thinking about how is the age of consent determined? I was thinking that at some point the government does infringe on some of our rights, some of the time. Some would see this as child abuse very clearly but obviously those involved didn't.
After rereading my posts, I can see that I really wasn't presenting my complete thought on the age thing. Actually I am not making a point but really pondering who ultimately decides these laws and by what standard?

Again, thanks for the answers. They really are helpful..

 

[wishspirit]

Here here!

Why hate for no reason?

Plus from my knowledge of the Bible, i thought the whole message was about Love? Maybe im just getting the wrong end of the stick, but isn't Christianity about being nice to other people?

Not trying to be offensive, i just really dont understand what is the overridding message, Tolerance or Persecution?

 

[CelticBelle]

About the age of consent... There was a special on 20/20 a few weeks ago about the age of consent. They discussed megans law, etc. The conclusion was that there isnt a distinct line and age. People are persecuted for obviouslu child abuse but what about those that are in violation but the people involved dont see it that way. There was a case of a couple where the guy was 18 and the girlfriend was 17. Only a few months apart and dating for years...the guy was put on megans law and persecuted.

I guess my point is that our laws arent very clear many times and it leaves a lot up to emotions which can be a bad idea because everyone views things differently. I know I didnt give you an answer, but at least its something.

 

[kjetjl]

About the age of consent... There was a special on 20/20 a few weeks ago about the age of consent. They discussed megans law, etc. The conclusion was that there isnt a distinct line and age. People are persecuted for obviouslu child abuse but what about those that are in violation but the people involved dont see it that way. There was a case of a couple where the guy was 18 and the girlfriend was 17. Only a few months apart and dating for years...the guy was put on megans law and persecuted.

I guess my point is that our laws arent very clear many times and it leaves a lot up to emotions which can be a bad idea because everyone views things differently. I know I didnt give you an answer, but at least its something.

Yeah. Emotions and viewing things differently can cause problems on both sides of any issue.

 

[3DisneyKids]

Hi,thanks for answering. I didn't mean any disrespect using the word lifestyle. I am sorry if that was offensive in any way.

I understand the age of consent thing. But what interests me is who/what determines the age of consent? Also, what about the women who are of the age of consent? Is it acceptable if they freely enter into a polygamous marriage?

Thanks again for answering.

First, I thank you for posting your differing opinion in a respectful way. And I also think that it is great that you are asking questions in order to get a different perspective.

I think both Chuck and Kevin gave good answers to the issue of polygamy and why it should (or shouldn't) be illegal and gay marriage should be legal. Here is one more take on it....

Let's say just for the sake of debate here that all polygamist relationships were between adults. Take the issue of minor girls (most often) out of the equation. The issue is CONSENTING adults. Honestly, I don't think that majority of people who enter in polygamy are truly consenting.

Let's look at the whole ranch in TX scenario...and again, let's presume all of the women were of legal, adult age. I would argue that they are still not CONSENTING. Here is my reasoning: they have been raised in this polygamist community from birth...and in almost total isolation. They don't know anything else, haven't been exposed to anything else (except to be told that their way is the right way and everyone else is wrong), and thus cannot truly make an informed decision as to whether or not they agree with plural marriage.

More importantly, however, they learn from birth that if you disagree with the "ways" of the community (polygamy as well as other rituals), then they will be shunned and excommunicated. Imagine being threatened with being forced to leave everyone and everything you have ever known....and being sent "out there" with literally nothing but the clothes on your back. Pretty strong incentive to stay, eh?

One of the most genuine and biological fears of humans is the fear of isolation.

Thus, I don't think (most) polygamists are in plural marriages by true choice. They have not have the opportunity to exercise free will.

Are there some cases where it truly is free will and the adults involved are truly there by choice and also not part of a community like the ranch in TX? I am sure there are. But they are few and very far between.

 

[3DisneyKids]

[
And as others have said...to YOU there is 1 God. Other believe differently. And that difference, after all, is what this country was founded on. The idea of religious freedom. If someone wants to believe that the "higher power" is a door knob, they are right to do so. Just like you have the right to believe in only 1 God. So when you say "there is no my god, your God, etc." that is just your belief and thus should not be stated as fact. The person next to you might worship God the Door Knob.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and, of course, we cherish free speech in this country, so you have the freedom to express that opinion.

While you have the right to post your opinions, I have the right to use the "ignore poster" function and for the first time in my several years here on the DIS, I am going to use it.

 

[kjetjl]

This offends me a little. And it was comments on religion that prompted me to post.

I am trying to be respectful in this thread...I know some are not.

But I am Catholic and I try to live my life according to my faith. I didn't always... because I didn't really understand it for a long time.

But what I find distressing is that it is ok to bash religion while expecting others to be respectful of the way you live your life.

 

[Chuck S]

The issue is CONSENTING adults. Honestly, I don't think that majority of people who enter in polygamy are truly consenting.

Here is my reasoning: they have been raised in this polygamist community from birth...and in almost total isolation. They don't know anything else, haven't been exposed to anything else (except to be told that their way is the right way and everyone else is wrong), and thus cannot truly make an informed decision as to whether or not they agree with plural marriage.

More importantly, however, they learn from birth that if you disagree with the "ways" of the community (polygamy as well as other rituals), then they will be shunned and excommunicated. Imagine being threatened with being forced to leave everyone and everything you have ever known....and being sent "out there" with literally nothing but the clothes on your back. Pretty strong incentive to stay, eh?

One of the most genuine and biological fears of humans is the fear of isolation.

I think a lot of different religions, not just polygamists, adhere to the human fear of isolation. That is the premise behind shunning and excommunication in many of the worlds mainstream belief systems.

Some sects use that fear to the extreme.

 

[MD DisneyFreaks]

This offends me a little. And it was comments on religion that prompted me to post.

I am trying to be respectful in this thread...I know some are not.

But I am Catholic and I try to live my life according to my faith. I didn't always... because I didn't really understand it for a long time.

But what I find distressing is that it is ok to bash religion while expecting others to be respectful of the way you live your life.

I'm not catholic, but I agree with the last part of this comment especially. It's amazing to me that those who tend to call people of faith intolerant and closed- minded are the first to bash and belittle those who believe differently and have different world views.

The funny thing about beliefs is that they are not dictated by reality or truth. Because one believes something doesn't mean it's true. That's the danger of saying something may be true for some and not others. We vary in our beliefs, but truth is truth.

I want to be clear that even though I am a person of deep faith and very strong opinions, I would never stand for anyone "bashing" anyone else for anything. It makes me sick to see people using their beliefs to spew hatred. Whether or not I agree with how someone lives their life does not release me from the command to love my neighbor as I love myself.

...just my .02 anyway

 

[3DisneyKids]

I think a lot of different religions, not just polygamists, adhere to the human fear of isolation. That is the premise behind shunning and excommunication in many of the worlds mainstream belief systems.

Oh, absolutely (or at least they have throughout history....it is not as common as it once was). But my point was that this fear likely erodes the element of free will for those who are party of the community to actually choose plural marriage.

 

[DisneyKevin]

Ok folks...

I have gone back and removed some offensive posts from this discussion.

In my mind this has been a spirited, yet civilized discussion.

I would appreciate it if we could continue in that vein.

Please refrain from attacks of any kind or I will need to close this thread.

If you have any questions as to why I removed or amended your post, please feel free to contact me.

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[3DisneyKids]

Thanks, Kevin!

 

[DisneyKevin]

I'm not catholic, but I agree with the last part of this comment especially. It's amazing to me that those who tend to call people of faith intolerant and closed- minded are the first to bash and belittle those who believe differently and have different world views.

The funny thing about beliefs is that they are not dictated by reality or truth. Because one believes something doesn't mean it's true. That's the danger of saying something may be true for some and not others. We vary in our beliefs, but truth is truth.

I want to be clear that even though I am a person of deep faith and very strong opinions, I would never stand for anyone "bashing" anyone else for anything. It makes me sick to see people using their beliefs to spew hatred. Whether or not I agree with how someone lives their life does not release me from the command to love my neighbor as I love myself.

...just my .02 anyway

Very well said!

 

[scjo68]

I feel like I need to jump in here, because there seems to be a general tone of Religion versus supporters of gay rights. I just want to contradict that image.

I am a Christian. I am heavily involved in my church in many areas, teaching children's Sunday school, Council member, choir member, etc. I am not going to engage in a Bible debate because, first, this isn't the place for it, and, second, I would not be very good at it. As much as I've studied and read it, I am no expert nor an authority.

I do know God's grace is for everyone. Not just everyone who is just like me.

I also cannot imagine how granting same-gender couples the right to marry can cause a problem. Perhaps the sanctity of marraige and family is being threatened by society today. Perhaps not. But if it is, it is threatend by things like abuse, adultery, dishonesty, selfishness, greed....I could go on, but I'm getting depressed...

Anyway, "gay marriage" doesn't come to mind as a threat.

I do not seem to be alone in my opinion among members of my church. We happen to have a nice couple in our church choir who are both ladies. They are openly partners, share a last name, they are a family. They are actively involved in our church, and graciously volunteer their time to honor God. So we are grateful for them. To my knowledge no one has had any kind of issue or even made reference to a "lifestyle". They are just part of our church family and choir family.

I mention this only to show that not all church-going folks feel the need to judge others based upon their orientation.

 

[Disney8704]

I was wondering where my post went!

Anyways, for those who did manage to read my post and felt offended I do apologize. However I dont take anything I said back. I voiced my opinion about gay couples and told you what my belief was and feel that since I DO live in the US, and have freedom of speech I was allowed to speak my mind and say what I needed to say. Yes it is true that other faiths believe in other things. But please dont judge my faith because I believe there is 1 God and only 1 God. I have NEVER judged other faiths and never will. What you may believe is something completely different. What everyone needs to realize is that religion is a very tough topic to discuess because everyone's minds have been filled that their religion is the only true religion and everyone else's is false. I mean look at the Holy Bible. It's been written, and rewritten a million times over that half of the time when Im reading the bible I have to wonder, is half of this any true? I mean to think about it. How does anyone really know what God said to actually write the bible? What did someone actually talked to God and wrote the thing? I highly doubt it!

Just wanted to say my peice. Carry on...

Ok folks...

I have gone back and removed some offensive posts from this discussion.

In my mind this has been a spirited, yet civilized discussion.

I would appreciate it if we could continue in that vein.

Please refrain from attacks of any kind or I will need to close this thread.

If you have any questions as to why I removed or amended your post, please feel free to contact me.

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[UrsulasShadow]

I want to apologize to my friends of faith who I probably offended with my remarks about religion. I have no problem with people with strong faith. I do react violently to people who use their faith to attack others, and I respond in kind...which is counterproductive. I apologize to the bystanders...it was certainly not directed at any of you.

I try to behave now.

 

[zulemara]

For the record I was not bashing Catholicism. I was simply stating I am well educated in the teachings of the Catholic faith, which I'm sure many agree hold the strictest rules of the Christian faith.


What seems to be missing among those who don't understand y they are expected to tolerate my pursuit of human rights is the fact that my life, BELIEFS and desire for equal treatment do nothing more than offend you. your beliefs on the other hand effect my life and take away my civil liberties. that is the difference between my intolerance of your belief and your intolerance of my loving relationship