$95 fee and MS comments

[mikeandkarla]

I believe that since all the things you mention were and are being used as sales pitches for DVC, if it ever comes to the point where nothing but home resort is a booking option, the market will be so flooded with resales at low prices that Disney will be hard pressed to buy back all the ROFRs. When people buy a product, they expect it to deliver what they were told it would deliver. If that doesn't happen, the product becomes worthless in the eyes of the consumer. (Here's a quick unrelated but still somewhat pertinent example - look at what's happened to the sales/value of the XBox 360 lately). I believe we're right to be concerned about the perceived value of DVC.

I also realize that DVD should be upfront and clearly spell out what the fees are actually going for. I don't mind paying for something useful if I know what my money's buying, but I do resent being condescended to by being told that this new fee is being enacted in order to simplify my life.

AMEN, Sister! especially the last paragraph. It all seems a little shady.

 

[crisi]

I believe that since all the things you mention were and are being used as sales pitches for DVC, if it ever comes to the point where nothing but home resort is a booking option, the market will be so flooded with resales at low prices that Disney will be hard pressed to buy back all the ROFRs. When people buy a product, they expect it to deliver what they were told it would deliver. If that doesn't happen, the product becomes worthless in the eyes of the consumer. (Here's a quick unrelated but still somewhat pertinent example - look at what's happened to the sales/value of the XBox 360 lately). I believe we're right to be concerned about the perceived value of DVC.

I also realize that DVD should be upfront and clearly spell out what the fees are actually going for. I don't mind paying for something useful if I know what my money's buying, but I do resent being condescended to by being told that this new fee is being enacted in order to simplify my life.

And? Disney gets a bunch of cheap contracts. Shuts down two buildings at SSR and four at OKW - maybe a few rooms at BWV/BCV/VWL go into extended rehab. They close down the Jambo house rooms at AKL. Stop building new resorts and resell their bargain inventory. As that inventory resells, they start opening up rooms and buildings again.

Or Disney lowers the ROFR floor and those contracts are resold without Disney caring who owns them. If they aren't selling new resorts, they won't care what the ROFR floor is.

Disney isn't exactly in a losing position here. We gave them all the leverage they need when we paid them up front for 50 years of vacations.

 

[Donna]

What i don't get is, why is an UPGRADE even needed? At least for the disney hotels, i can go to disney.com and book a room in 2 minutes and get a confirmation number, and i didn't even have to upgrade my computer! So why can't MS go to disney.com and do the same thing? i know DVC and disney cro are separate but the booking can still be done, i'm sure the payment can be done the same way as i do it too, online in an instant. i could "almost" see a $25 fee, but $95? that is just overkill on disney's part...overkilling US the members. There must not be that many of us if they have to collect THAT much.

 

[jbrowna]

And there goes the big "500 other places to use your points" selling point for DVC.

I suppose...but then that was never a selling point for me. In fact, I don't even remember it being mentioned by my guide...but then, maybe I was telegraphing my opinion about that, so he probably realized it was a losing argument to make.

It's been mentioned elsewhere how using points for anything other than DVC makes little financial sense anyway (even less so now with the new fee), and DW and I had come to that conclusion before we bought in. Of course, we're the kind of people that do all sorts of research ahead of time, so any kind of sales pitch usually goes in one side and out the other.

We based our purchase on the number of points we would want to use while staying at DVC resorts. We would never have considered buying more points in order to be able to use points to stay elsewhere - "selling point" or no "selling point". Can anyone honestly say they did that, bought additional points for the purpose of using them outside of DVC? If so, then I suppose they can complain, but if not, than what's the big deal?

In any event, points can still be used elsewhere (500 other places?) -- it's just going to cost more to do so!

I suppose I haven't been a DVC member long enough to be upset by this. Obviously there are lots of folks who really see this as a devaluing of their DVC purchase. I don't. Maybe if I'd been in the habit of using my points at non-DVC resorts I'd feel differently. The only situation in which this would bother me: if all the DVC rooms are booked, and the only thing available would be at a non-DVC resort. Then, it seems to me, one is being left with no choice (other than to not go at all). But in all other circumstances, I can choose to book at a non-DVC resort if I want to pay the fee, but I can also choose not to.

 

[jodifla]

And? Disney gets a bunch of cheap contracts. Shuts down two buildings at SSR and four at OKW - maybe a few rooms at BWV/BCV/VWL go into extended rehab. They close down the Jambo house rooms at AKL. Stop building new resorts and resell their bargain inventory. As that inventory resells, they start opening up rooms and buildings again.

Or Disney lowers the ROFR floor and those contracts are resold without Disney caring who owns them. If they aren't selling new resorts, they won't care what the ROFR floor is.

Disney isn't exactly in a losing position here. We gave them all the leverage they need when we paid them up front for 50 years of vacations.

Except for DVC is still in expanding mode.

It makes it hard for them to sell when people are grumbling about the product, and when they can no longer point to the high resale value.

It also turns their whole "flexible" argument on its head, and that's why A LOT of people sign on for 40 or 50 years.

 

[Doctor P]

I don't get the outrage. If you bought DVC to regularly stay at non-DVC WDW resorts, you probably made a bad purchase. Nobody guaranteed me access to the WDW resorts when I signed my contract; nobody guaranteed me access to the DCL when I signed my contract; nobody guaranteed me access to II exchanges when I signed my contract. In fact, nobody guaranteed that I would be able to use my points anywhere but my home resort. I accepted that when I made my purchase and, while disappointed, cannot be upset when they charge a fee for access to those non-guaranteed aspects of my membership. That's their right, privilege, and, IMHO, probably a good move for their business all the way around. It also prevents me from having to pay for the extra costs of members who regularly send MS through the extra hoops to do these exchanges. Do I want access to the exchanges? Yes, it is nice. But I certainly wouldn't do a one night stay under the new system.

 

[JimMIA]

I know a lot of people read Jim Lewis' explanation of "simplification" with blood in their eye, but this change does simplify my planning a little.

Before, I would occasionally look at staying at the Poly or GF, but decide against it because of the exhorbitant points costs. Now, with high points costs plus $95, my life is greatly simplified -- the thought won't even cross my mind!

This change and the changes in DDP are actually going to work to my family's advantage. We'll eat almost all our meals offsite, and if we want to extend a trip beyond Sun-Thurs, we'll just get a place over by Universal. No problem.

Simplification -- it's a beautiful thing!

 

[diznyfanatic]

You realize that they don't have to allow us to use our points anywhere except our home resorts, right? There are no guarantees that WDW resorts, cruises or anything other than your home resort will remain a booking option.

You also realize tha ANY DVC computer upgrades won't be paid for by Disney, they are paid either through booking fees (like the $95) or an overall increase in dues.

Chuck, I honestly mean no disrespect, but what exactly is your point here? I think most of us understand that Disney fulfulls it's fundamental contract obligation by providing a room at a home resort.

I also think that many members would sell off their DVC memberships in a New York minute if that program was stripped of everything else besides the most basic legal requirement and new members would be a lot harder to come by.

As far as this absurd response by DVC regarding the $95 fee, Disney's tech woes haven't exactly been a secret and encompass all of their databases and interfaces corporate wide.

To respond as if all of that will be magically corrected by the implementation of this $95 fee is ridiculous. What if the result is that members stop trading their points at all? Is Disney saying with this response that their computers or telephone systems will never be upgraded? As far as I'm concerned, computer and phone reservation systems are part of the cost of doing business.

Perhaps unsold CRO inventory that originally belonged to DVC should be returned to DVC inventory and made available to members who would like to make last minute trip arrangements.

I don't like feeling like members need to keep their mouths shut when in disagreement with a Disney policy change under some real or perceived fear that if we don't, we could lose all but the most basic legal obligation of being provided a reservation at our home resort.

 

[waltfan1957]

You realize that they don't have to allow us to use our points anywhere except our home resorts, right? There are no guarantees that WDW resorts, cruises or anything other than your home resort will remain a booking option.

You also realize tha ANY DVC computer upgrades won't be paid for by Disney, they are paid either through booking fees (like the $95) or an overall increase in dues.

We were told when we bought in we could use our points at any DVC resort if what you are saying is true is that not misrepresentation and can we not get our money back if we choose to?

 

[dalt01]

just a thought, i am in the process of maybe, thinking, about buying in soon. but one of our main reasons for doing so is that we will never have to use the regular resort inventory again. we stayed at SSR in a one bedroom last year on rental points and got spoiled. so much so that we just got back from POR last week and looked at each other and said, never again. from what i see it is not equitable to use points for non DVC resorts. am i missing something?

 

[diznyfanatic]

We were told when we bought in we could use our points at any DVC resort if what you are saying is true is that not misrepresentation and can we not get our money back if we choose to?

This fee doesn't have anything to do with using your points at a DVC resort. None of that has changed.

You can also still use your points at the non-DVC resorts, however, Disney is now going to charge you $95 to do so.

 

[Dean]

We were told when we bought in we could use our points at any DVC resort if what you are saying is true is that not misrepresentation and can we not get our money back if we choose to?

No, oral representations are not valid and you could use them at that point. It's all covered in the legal paperwork. Mom members have never read it, they should have prior to buying in.

 

[Doctor P]

We were told when we bought in we could use our points at any DVC resort if what you are saying is true is that not misrepresentation and can we not get our money back if we choose to?

You were also told that anything except what was in writing in the legal documents was neither binding nor necessarily accurate. It expressly states that you do not, via your contract, have any rights except to use your points at your home resort.

 

[crisi]

Except for DVC is still in expanding mode.

It makes it hard for them to sell when people are grumbling about the product, and when they can no longer point to the high resale value.

It also turns their whole "flexible" argument on its head, and that's why A LOT of people sign on for 40 or 50 years.

But they don't need to be in expansion mode. If they can sell the same points twice, they get the same revenue as if they build. They can decide today not to build CRV or at Disneyland and to resell ROFR contracts - if the market floods with resale contracts. They don't need to make the capital investment reselling ROFR contracts.

The idea here is for Disney to make money (from Disney's point of view) - they can do that in expansion mode or they can do that by reselling ROFR contracts.

 

[jodifla]

But they don't need to be in expansion mode. If they can sell the same points twice, they get the same revenue as if they build. They can decide today not to build CRV or at Disneyland and to resell ROFR contracts - if the market floods with resale contracts. They don't need to make the capital investment reselling ROFR contracts.

The idea here is for Disney to make money (from Disney's point of view) - they can do that in expansion mode or they can do that by reselling ROFR contracts.

But you have to have willing customers to buy the resale products. And if enough good stuff is cut out, and people start considering it a damaged product, they'll have fewer and fewer takers....and the downward spiral will continue.

 

[jodifla]

just a thought, i am in the process of maybe, thinking, about buying in soon. but one of our main reasons for doing so is that we will never have to use the regular resort inventory again. we stayed at SSR in a one bedroom last year on rental points and got spoiled. so much so that we just got back from POR last week and looked at each other and said, never again. from what i see it is not equitable to use points for non DVC resorts. am i missing something?

It's more that it's a nice option to have....and Disney sold flexibility to people to get them to plunk 12 grand or more on the table.

 

[Mtnman44]

Let's put some hard numbers to this:

For an example, let's take Regular season at the Poly. Point requirements range from 41 (sun-thrus) to 119 PER NIGHT. Most would agree that this is a very expensive use of DVC points to begin with.

using only the Annual dues cost of these points (avg of 4.50), you're looking at a cost of at least $185 per night. If you value DVC points at $12, then your cost in this example is minimum of $492 per night for a weekday.

If an average stay was 3 days, that $95 transfer fee is about $32 per night. I don't see how this is the end of the world if it helps maintain this trading option. It was very costly to trade prior to the fee anyway. I am much more outraged at the point requirements than the fee.

 

[SuzanneSLO]

You also realize tha ANY DVC computer upgrades won't be paid for by Disney, they are paid either through booking fees (like the $95) or an overall increase in dues.

To whom is the $95 paid? Does it go into the same account as dues and is then used to offset the expenses which would otherwise be paid with dues? If so, then this strikes me as more of a "pay-for-play" fee that is trying to charge those who use services for the cost of providing those services.

--Suzanne

 

[TMB1203]

Let's put some hard numbers to this:

For an example, let's take Regular season at the Poly. Point requirements range from 41 (sun-thrus) to 119 PER NIGHT. Most would agree that this is a very expensive use of DVC points to begin with.

using only the Annual dues cost of these points (avg of 4.50), you're looking at a cost of at least $185 per night. If you value DVC points at $12, then your cost in this example is minimum of $492 per night for a weekday.

If an average stay was 3 days, that $95 transfer fee is about $32 per night. I don't see how this is the end of the world if it helps maintain this trading option. It was very costly to trade prior to the fee anyway. I am much more outraged at the point requirements than the fee.

I completely agree with you. I won't use my DVC points for a non DVC room b/c the points are insane! My husband wants to stay at CR Tower room again (last time we stayed there was the trip we purchased DVC). I showed him the point charts and told him he was out if his mind if he thought we would use our DVC points for the stay. I would rather pay cash (and hopefully get an AP discount) and bank my points for a longer stay the next year.

I know that every member uses their points differently, so I'm sorry for the members that this affects negatively.

 

[jodifla]

I completely agree with you. I won't use my DVC points for a non DVC room b/c the points are insane! My husband wants to stay at CR Tower room again (last time we stayed there was the trip we purchased DVC). I showed him the point charts and told him he was out if his mind if he thought we would use our DVC points for the stay. I would rather pay cash (and hopefully get an AP discount) and bank my points for a longer stay the next year.

I know that every member uses their points differently, so I'm sorry for the members that this affects negatively.

The major problem is the idea of it. If they do this now, what's next?

I haven't used my points yet for outside DVC stays, but if there was no DVC availability, and darned sure want to use my points for the regular Disney hotels.

I'm ALREADY paying an arm and a leg for the room in points. I don't want to pay $95 on top of that.