737 Max

[RamblingMad]

That seemed to be the problem with the Asiana 214 crash. The captain always received deference although the co-pilot was actually a training officer. They had hired some American pilots who saw that many Korean cultural norms overrode basic safety, as well as poor pilot training.

But that doesn’t make me want to fly a defective aircraft.

 

[fly girl]

That seemed to be the problem with the Asiana 214 crash. The captain always received deference although the co-pilot was actually a training officer. They had hired some American pilots who saw that many Korean cultural norms overrode basic safety, as well as poor pilot training.

YES! That is what happened with Asiana. (FWIW, I saw that aircraft the next day flying into SFO. My heart sunk. Although I give mad kudos to the flight attendants, they were AMAZING.) Since the crash I know they have hired several US pilots to go over and do training to replicate how we do it here with open communication.

 

[mnrose]

The key sentence in your reply was PRIVATE JET BUSINESS. He is hiring for private jets, their qualifications for hire may look similar to major carriers on paper, but they are not truly accurate. Major US airlines will only consider those well above the minimum requirements. (Regional carriers are NOT in this equation, they hire with lower hours. Many pilots start at the regionals to gain more hours to then fly for the big airlines.)

If you go on a legacy carrier, the flight hours of those pilots are very high. Your typical pilot has spent 10-15 years getting to the major commercial airline. And then sits in the first officers seat for many years before moving to captain.

Sure, autopilot is a great thing, but I do not know of one major airline first officer or captain that cannot take control of the plane when "George" is turned off. Yes, you have pilots that aren't great. No denying that. Just like you have surgeons that shouldn't be doing their job. I don't feel all are excellent, but there are far more good ones than subpar ones. And bonus, there are 2 pilots in the cockpit. The days of what the captain says rules are out the window. You are a team. Yes, it is ultimately the captains decision, but the first officer can and will speak up.

See, it's the regionals that bother me. Most people ASSUME that because the name Delta, American or United appears on the plane, and on the uniforms of those aboard, that they are flying with pilots are well qualified as those on those carriers....and of course, that just isn't true. Regionals are staffed entirely differently, as you note. Increasingly, as the distances that an Embraer can fly get greater, people are on regionals more often than they might think. For example, United flies Embraers from Minnepolis to San Francisco, an almost 3.75 hour flight. I'll bet many people *think* that's a United trained pilot. Personally, I always look to make sure I'm on a major carrier plane with major carrier pilots whenever possible (though sometimes it just isn't...for example, there is no good way for me to get from Minneapolis to Chicago without being on a regional carrier or Minneapolis to Toronto). That was also part of my friend's point....with regional carriers, you can often "sit" in the captain's seat with about 1 year's experience with the regional. Not nearly enough in his opinion. The same is true in Europe with some of the "budget" carriers, some of whom are affiliates of the names people are more familiar with, like Lufthansa. This is NOT just a developing nation issue.

 

[fly girl]

See, it's the regionals that bother me. Most people ASSUME that because the name Delta, American or United appears on the plane, and on the uniforms of those aboard, that they are flying with pilots are well qualified as those on those carriers....and of course, that just isn't true. Regionals are staffed entirely differently, as you note. Increasingly, as the distances that an Embraer can fly get greater, people are on regionals more often than they might think. For example, United flies Embraers from Minnepolis to San Francisco, an almost 3.75 hour flight. I'll bet many people *think* that's a United trained pilot. Personally, I always look to make sure I'm on a major carrier plane with major carrier pilots whenever possible (though sometimes it just isn't...for example, there is no good way for me to get from Minneapolis to Chicago without being on a regional carrier or Minneapolis to Toronto). That was also part of my friend's point....with regional carriers, you can often "sit" in the captain's seat with about 1 year's experience with the regional. Not nearly enough in his opinion. The same is true in Europe with some of the "budget" carriers, some of whom are affiliates of the names people are more familiar with, like Lufthansa. This is NOT just a developing nation issue.

You are correct, regionals are a different beast entirely. The pay is horrible and they are short staffed so they do hire pilots with less flight hours than the mainline pilots. It is a stepping stone to gain hours to fly for the majors. They have increased pay over the years, but seriously in the 1990's a new hire regional pilot could qualify for food stamps they were paid that poorly. That is why we have a shortage of pilots. The cost of training (unless you go into the military) is so high many change career paths to make money at a faster rate. Honestly, I don't blame them.

I agree, I wish they had more training. But I still feel safer getting on a regional carrier than getting in a car.

 

[Klayfish]

OK, I'll let you and dish rag go on it first, and after you've gone a few times, maybe I'll be be ready to try.

Deal. You buy the ticket for me, and I'll fly. I'll take the Bahamas or Orlando as my destinations, please.

 

[MillauFr]

All the airlines need to do is sell the 737 Max tickets for $1 less. People will be lining up to save $1 on their flights

 

[RamblingMad]

All the airlines need to do is sell the 737 Max tickets for $1 less. People will be lining up to save $1 on their flights

This is why flying is the US is terrible. I’ve had much better experiences flying in South America.

 

[MillauFr]

This is why flying is the US is terrible. I’ve had much better experiences flying in South America.

Agreed. We are lucky in Seattle to have Alaska Airlines which is still excellent

 

[RamblingMad]

Agreed. We are lucky in Seattle to have Alaska Airlines which is still excellent

The flying experience has dropped over the last two decades. It’s an experience I dread whenever I go somewhere. It’s much smoother in both Europe and South America.

 

[MillauFr]

The flying experience has dropped over the last two decades. It’s an experience I dread whenever I go somewhere. It’s much smoother in both Europe and South America.

What airlines are you flying? I haven't seen a decline

 

[RamblingMad]

What airlines are you flying? I haven't seen a decline

I usually fly Delta in the US. It’s still way below my experience with foreign operators such as Virgin and JAL,

I saw the biggest decline with Southwest, so I stopped flying them. They just don’t maintain their planes. And their customer service is not as good as it was in the early 2000s.

 

[MillauFr]

I usually fly Delta in the US. It’s still way below my experience with foreign operators such as Virgin and JAL,

I saw the biggest decline with Southwest, so I stopped flying them. They just don’t maintain their planes. And their customer service is not as good as it was in the early 2000s.

the Delta One product is very nice on the SEA to JFK flights

 

[RamblingMad]

the Delta One product is very nice on the SEA to JFK flights

I really hate JFK.

 

[MillauFr]

Who doesn't? The airport. Don't want to get points from the mods

I really hate JFK.

 

[RamblingMad]

Who doesn't? The airport. Don't want to get points from the mods

Yeah. The airport. Nothing but bad experiences going through there.

 

[mnrose]

the Delta One product is very nice on the SEA to JFK flights

Well of course it is. It also costs a small fortune. And, is available only to a small percentage of passengers on each flight (just not that many Delta One seats). Saying an airlines business class product is good is small comfort to the vast majority of us who fly coach. ETA: I recently had the good fortune to fly business class back and forth to Europe. It was great service. Really nice. But, not that many people can drop the change required for those seats. I doubt the people in the back of the plane cared that MY experience was good.

 

[declansdad]

I most likely would. I usually don't bother to look at what the plane is when I book a ticket.

 

[china mom]

OK, I'll let you and dish rag go on it first, and after you've gone a few times, maybe I'll be be ready to try. I may have been on one pre-grounding a year or 2 ago, I know it was a 737 and seemed brand new, but I wasn't aware of the different 737 variants at the time.

I was just about to post that i bet most passengers wouldn't know the difference between any of the models anyway and would not know how to check the type of plane when booking their flight. And even if they did, with equipment swaps you could end up an a max anyway.

Now, I am keenly aware of the different models because I was in a race with DH to see who would end up on a Max 8 first - I beat him by two flights! But the average passenger would know the difference unless it was one of the airlines that has the big "Max 8" logo on the tail.

 

[Klayfish]

I saw the biggest decline with Southwest, so I stopped flying them. They just don’t maintain their planes. And their customer service is not as good as it was in the early 2000s.

Finally....someone else who agrees with my about Southwest. Lots of love for them on this board, but I can't stand them. I've had lots of issues and their customer service is horrible. Not to mention I don't want my flight attendants being stand up comics...or at least trying to be.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Deal. You buy the ticket for me, and I'll fly. I'll take the Bahamas or Orlando as my destinations, please.

No way. I'd have feelings of guilt after you crashed.

Finally....someone else who agrees with my about Southwest. Lots of love for them on this board, but I can't stand them. I've had lots of issues and their customer service is horrible. Not to mention I don't want my flight attendants being stand up comics...or at least trying to be.

Wait a minute. Back up a bit here. I'm confused. Southwest had customer service?