5th gate on the horizon?

Nonetheless, Disney CM's who choose to are represented by a union. Wages for essentially all CM's are set through those union/management negotiations. Members then ratify the agreement. So, they've decided that they are being paid fairly for the work they are doing.

Woah woah woah...

I'm confident you know what "right to work" means and how it 100% invalidates your point...

Listen...with no personal ill will (cause I have none)...that is as "sunny side up" of an opinion as you can get.
 
Okay here's another argument against a 5th gate any time in the near future. There's a lot of talk lately of budget cuts all over the parks:
  • Cuts to waterpark hours
  • Cuts to store and ride hours
  • Cuts to the Frozen ride
  • Cuts to Rivers of Light
And on and on. Why so many cuts if the parks are busier than ever (they are) and highly profitable (they are)? Are they bleeding money somewhere else in Parks and Resorts? Could it be a certain overseas park that's supposed to open this year?
 
Okay here's another argument against a 5th gate any time in the near future. There's a lot of talk lately of budget cuts all over the parks:
  • Cuts to waterpark hours
  • Cuts to store and ride hours
  • Cuts to the Frozen ride
  • Cuts to Rivers of Light
And on and on. Why so many cuts if the parks are busier than ever (they are) and highly profitable (they are)? Are they bleeding money somewhere else in Parks and Resorts? Could it be a certain overseas park that's supposed to open this year?

That mess is on a completely different ledger...but they are in DEEP on that.

You know what IS tied to wdw/DL?

Paris...which had 2.20 billion in debt two years ago...

You know how you pay off 2.20 billion (without interest)? You maintain your current annual gross for 15 years...without spending another dime...

Anybody want to hear how badly you're getting screwed for ESPN while we're at it?
 
That mess is on a completely different ledger...but they are in DEEP on that.

You know what IS tied to wdw/DL?

Paris...which had 2.20 billion in debt two years ago...

You know how you pay off 2.20 billion (without interest)? You maintain your current annual gross for 15 years...without spending another dime...

Anybody want to hear how badly you're getting screwed for ESPN while we're at it?

I don't think ESPN has hit Parks & Resorts yet, but if the stock panic continues that's another story. Hadn't thought about Paris though.

They're in a really weird place right now. They know they need to build up in Florida, but they also need to reduce their debts. Hard to balance those two, but you certainly don't do it by putting down $5 billion (think I'm kidding, consider how much Pandora has cost) to build a 5th Gate.
 

Okay here's another argument against a 5th gate any time in the near future. There's a lot of talk lately of budget cuts all over the parks:
  • Cuts to waterpark hours
  • Cuts to store and ride hours
  • Cuts to the Frozen ride
  • Cuts to Rivers of Light
And on and on. Why so many cuts if the parks are busier than ever (they are) and highly profitable (they are)? Are they bleeding money somewhere else in Parks and Resorts? Could it be a certain overseas park that's supposed to open this year?
Cuts on rivers of light? Where did you hear that? The other three I have seen and/or heard but not rivers of light.
 
That mess is on a completely different ledger...but they are in DEEP on that.

You know what IS tied to wdw/DL?

Paris...which had 2.20 billion in debt two years ago...

You know how you pay off 2.20 billion (without interest)? You maintain your current annual gross for 15 years...without spending another dime...

Anybody want to hear how badly you're getting screwed for ESPN while we're at it?
I still don't think Paris has affected the domestic resorts yet.
 
I don't think ESPN has hit Parks & Resorts yet, but if the stock panic continues that's another story. Hadn't thought about Paris though.

They're in a really weird place right now. They know they need to build up in Florida, but they also need to reduce their debts. Hard to balance those two, but you certainly don't do it by putting down $5 billion (think I'm kidding, consider how much Pandora has cost) to build a 5th Gate.

Oh...it's even way more convoluted than that. I am not an economist or a Wall Street ratings agency...but I've read more about Disney finances in the last 10 years than I've spent time sleeping...

And here the whole lay of the land...in no particular order:

First problem is ESPN. As We have discussed - 40% of Disney's fiscal punch that now is on the seemingly irreversible decline. Cord cutting, decline of ad revenue associated, and much higher fees to carry sports...to say nothing of competiton that is just starting to come directly from the sports themselves.

So the void has to be compensated by the #2 money maker - parks.
But Paris has been described as a "23 year financial disaster"..."cultural Chernobyl" from day 1...and featured the suicide of its two heads in 2010 (no...really). It's propped up by the Saudis...for gods sake (bad pun).

I've seen others say recently "things seem to be ok...it's the most visited destination in Europe". But it never makes any money!!! And can't because of the debt since day one. That's all the way back to Eisner and wells...and there just isn't an end in sight.

And China...after the very "mixed" success of Hong Kong (think euro...very similar)...they double down on a ridiculous investment - which they ultimately don't control - in the center of a land that is neither politically...and more importantly CULTURALLY friendly to the star spangled banner.
And oh yeah...they can't figure out how to pull the country out of nosedive because it's not likely possible. Fun times in Shanghai/Beijing.

So how does the parks division do what it has too?

Ahhh...old faithful. The old private island landlocked in the center of the Florida peninsula.
They finally are gonna have to do what many of us have been SHOUTING about for 10+ years...not ignore us (to be fair...I was naive in my earlier adulthood and the neglect/exploit began in January of 2001 under old clowns).
So now here's the wench of it:
They now have to build in the swamp to make more money to backstop these other things...and likely Bigtime. But how do they do it while MAKING money off it to support these other things?
It's impossible. You can't continue to charge much more for the same junk and think everyone is good to buy Disney parks 2016 tshirts. There is an endpoint to every train line.
And as always pointed out - the vacationer is not in the position to change reality. For most - that is limited funds and constricted time available. So how can you make more?

You would - theoretically -expand capacity so that there are more raw numbers in the place at a given time. Eisner wanted you spending 10 days instead of 7...it can't be done. So Iger has to figure out a way to make 2 7 days for every old spot...which costs a lot in logistics and infrastructure.

It's a mystery inside and enigma inside a conundrum...

And here's how you'll know it won't work:
Iger announces in six months he's "tired" and says he'll leave in 2017...a year early. Then he'll exercises his parachute options and liquidate though semi-unscrupulous "legal" means. Then he'll live in the tanning studio with les moonves and summer redstone full time...

It's like the sign of the star telling the wise men to head to Nazareth...or in this case - head the other way.
 
/
I still don't think Paris has affected the domestic resorts yet.

I'm not saying they have. But the financial numbers are real.

Euro has been bailed out in a massive way (or at least refinanced/restructured/reorganized) I believe 4 or 5 times. Starting in 1994 and every 5 or so years since.
 
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On another note.

My MIL just got back from the typical annual "jerz trip" yesterday....

And they had multiple nametags tell them "we had to increase prices...because they can't control the crowds"...

So the memo is out and has trickled down the branches at this point.

My response: "corporate bs"

Why? Because the only effective way to limit crowds is by capping capacity and sales...which will not happen. Bank that.

You can say that doubling prices is effective...but by limiting control of sales you can NEVER back that claim.

It just seems to also contradict to the whole "shortening hours" that's trying To be snuck under the radar as we speak.

Funny...huh?
 
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I'm confident you know what "right to work" means and how it 100% invalidates your point...
Yup, very aware of what "right to work" means both in theory and in practice. I used to live in a different state that didn't have that kind of law. On looking into WDW employment practices I found that despite folks not having to join a union to work for the company, they get the exact same wages and benefits for the same job as those who do join the union.

Oh, and I prefer my eggs scrambled.
 
Cuts on rivers of light? Where did you hear that? The other three I have seen and/or heard but not rivers of light.

There's talk of it over on WDW Magic. From what I can follow substantial cuts were proposed earlier in Rivers of Light's development and there was a chance of it being reduce from a night time spectacular to a small fountain show, however the need to turn AK into a full day park trumped that. But there have been smaller cuts to the budget, bits shaved off here and there.

I didn't include it in my list but I've also seen people talking about Cast Member's hours being cut. So instead of scrapping stuff what we're seeing is a general penny pinching all over.
 
Yup, very aware of what "right to work" means both in theory and in practice. I used to live in a different state that didn't have that kind of law. On looking into WDW employment practices I found that despite folks not having to join a union to work for the company, they get the exact same wages and benefits for the same job as those who do join the union.

Oh, and I prefer my eggs scrambled.

I only eat scrambled...

And being from the heart of union country...but also being fully aware of the missteps in the union process/history...I'm not a blind supporter on politics on either side.

But non-mandatory unions are absolutely pointless and negates any collective bargaining power...which is the whole point.

In Florida..."right to work" means "right to pay the the minimum with 0 chances of consequences"...in practice.
 
There's talk of it over on WDW Magic. From what I can follow substantial cuts were proposed earlier in Rivers of Light's development and there was a chance of it being reduce from a night time spectacular to a small fountain show, however the need to turn AK into a full day park trumped that. But there have been smaller cuts to the budget, bits shaved off here and there.

I didn't include it in my list but I've also seen people talking about Cast Member's hours being cut. So instead of scrapping stuff what we're seeing is a general penny pinching all over.

If true...that invalidates every excuse they have begun to run out in regards to pricing.

It would be a crock of steaming...

...well, Nevermind.

You don't say "we can't handle the crowds" while shaving everything down. You can't self justify that even in fantasyland.
 
But non-mandatory unions are absolutely pointless and negates any collective bargaining power...which is the whole point.
OTOH, if the two parties know that the Union is effectively representing all employees that gives the union more power.
 
OTOH, if the two parties know that the Union is effectively representing all employees that gives the union more power.

On the third hand...barring mandatory unions or insisting that you can come and go as you please makes the threat of stoppage a non-factor because nobody will hold the line making minimum wage.

That is the reality.

Nobody likes strikes - most of all the workers that are striking and in financial distress - but there's a reason why it's been going on since papyrus scrolls. There is no more effective tactic that doesn't involve a "visit" from the Sicilian mafia.
 
There's talk of it over on WDW Magic. From what I can follow substantial cuts were proposed earlier in Rivers of Light's development and there was a chance of it being reduce from a night time spectacular to a small fountain show, however the need to turn AK into a full day park trumped that. But there have been smaller cuts to the budget, bits shaved off here and there.

I didn't include it in my list but I've also seen people talking about Cast Member's hours being cut. So instead of scrapping stuff what we're seeing is a general penny pinching all over.
I saw the part about substantial cuts proposed early on but I haven't seen anything about smaller cuts.
 
I get why fans want a 5th gate but all I'm seeing is people trying to cobble together a justification for it, rather than there being an actual compelling reason. The difference between that and Universal where the business case is crystal clear is pretty stark I think.
I'm right with you on that.

I don't even believe there is a justification for Disney completing the three stepsister parks let alone build a fifth. Deeply discounted multi day passes means deeply discounted parks.

In a way it's logical, but in a way it's ridiculous. It depends on having an endless supply of first timers, pixie dust addicts and special event junkies. It depends on Universal not having pixie dust (meaning warm-hearted fantasy-based attractions appealing to families), not having a year-round calendar of special events, and only having two parks.

So instead of a fifth gate I see Uni's eventual third gate leading to a bigger effort to complete AK and DHS and restore Epcot.
 
I'm right with you on that.

I don't even believe there is a justification for Disney completing the three stepsister parks let alone build a fifth. Deeply discounted multi day passes means deeply discounted parks.

In a way it's logical, but in a way it's ridiculous. It depends on having an endless supply of first timers, pixie dust addicts and special event junkies. It depends on Universal not having pixie dust (meaning warm-hearted fantasy-based attractions appealing to families), not having a year-round calendar of special events, and only having two parks.

So instead of a fifth gate I see Uni's eventual third gate leading to a bigger effort to complete AK and DHS and restore Epcot.
I'm 95% with you.

Where I differ is that it's NOT about selling tickets. Those are...have been...and always will be overhead offsets.

It's about selling JUNK in the parks. That's what has always justified the investments.

And not to go "I told you so"...again...but Iger has completely ignored why that was a successful formula - maintaining unique offerings in the parks.
Emphasis on per penny expenses in sweatshops next to their soon to be opened failure of a park has knocked the pilings right out from under the system.
 
Future world at Epcot is certainly the next piece of low hanging fruit. The question is whether there will be any type of re-theme. I think future world is obsolete, and might make more sense to celebrate our current world and tech development. The existing popular attractions already support that concept.
 





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