5D Mark II

[Groucho]

That's funny, that sounds very similar to what Nikon's chosen fan was saying about the D90. Here we have one person saying the same about the Canon.

No offense to the capabilities of the Mk 2, but I doubt that filmmakers will be tossing out their HD camera rigs for a DSLR that can records 12 minutes of lossy-compression 30fps video... and probably has relatively slow AF (though I think professional work is still manually focused), assuming that it can AF and adjust exposure in video mode, which would be a first.

It will probably be great for amateurs wanting to record a little video on the side (rather like the video functionality on PnSs) but I rather that the pro equipment will be all going on Craigslist any time soon.

It is strange that they put this feature on their camera that's more tuned for studio use than out-and-about shooting (with the higher megapixels and relatively slow continuous shooting speed.) I guess that kind of goes along with the thinking that video is a feature that has few "cons" when added on to any DSLR.

 

[Anewman]

... and probably has relatively slow AF (though I think professional work is still manually focused), assuming that it can AF and adjust exposure in video mode, which would be a first.

From what I have heard... Manual focus only.

 

[DizzyV6P]

Actually, a lot of my 5D friends do a lot more landscaping work than studio work although I've also heard the opposite.

Why put it in? Because everyone else is going to as well. Competition is good for all of us

 

[Groucho]

From what I have heard... Manual focus only.

Thanks for the update. I do wonder about exposure adjustments, neither of the previous comparable systems (I'm thinking the K20D and the D90) can adjust it while shooting in this mode. There's no specific mention of it, and I would think that they would mention it if they could...

Manual focus will be a negative for amateur shooters, while pros will wonder where the focus puller is supposed to work from. (If they can adjust focus via a tethered PC, that may be a pretty cool setup though...)

This is obviously a ready-made Canon quote rather than something than an actual user would say. (Canon certainly didn't just give this guy a pre-production camera and expect nothing in return!) And best low-light ability ever? I have a hard time believing that their 21mp sensor is going to control noise as well as the 12mp sensor in the D3/D700.

I'm sure that after the Photokina hype dies down, some more even-handed reviews will appear.

 

[Anewman]

Manual focus will be a negative for amateur shooters, while pros will wonder where the focus puller is supposed to work from.

Would love to see an "amateur" try to focus a wide open F/1.4 lens on a moving subject, and dont get me started on how jittery the video will be.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

Here's my take on the video from the 5DM2. I'm extremely excited about it.

First, it does not make a suitable replacement for a real video camera. Not even close.

Focusing will be a big problem. It autofocuses during filming, but the AF will be slow. Even if it isn't any better than other camcorders, that's a problem for serious HD shooting. It's an issue for me with my XH-A1 (HD camcorder) and it has much more DOF. When shooting with shallow DOF, AF just won't cut it.

Serious video shooters use an external HD monitor and a remote focus control to manually maintain focus. Will the 5DM2 output HD video live over the HDMI port? I don't know. Even if it does, will you be able to remotely control focus? You certainly don't want to be twisting your focus ring with your hands while shooting. I know that the 40D allows remote control of it's focus, so I'm betting that the 5DM2 does as well, but I have no idea if it will work in video mode and how well. So there is a chance that you'll be able to hook up an HD monitor to the HDMI port and remote focusing tool to the USB port, but don't get your hopes up. It'll be better for shooting subjects that don't move out of the focal plane.

Exposure management will be problematic. It looks like it does auto-adjust the exposure during shooting (and hopefully allows you to turn that off), but you can probably forget about having good manual control over focus. I usually shoot in manual exposure mode with my video camera and make heavy use of the iris ring. I don't think there will be any equivalent capability with the 5DM2.

Frame rate is another issue of concern. The camera shoots strictly at 30P. I'm OK with that as it is my favorite frame rate, but indie film makers almost always like 24P. You can convert, but it is processor intensive and doesn't look as good.

In theory, you can zoom while shooting, but I'm sure it will be lame. Real video cameras have adjustable speed powered zooms for steady zooms. Manually twisting a zoom ring won't be smooth and it'll cause shake. Then again, it's extremely uncommon for a serious videographer to zoom while shooting.

Video image control is also different than photo picture control. You want to be able to make knee adjustments, show zebra stripes, and do other stuff that the 5DM2 isn't going to do.

So with all these issues, why I am excited? Because it will be really useful as a second camera for video shoots. I'm constantly frustrated by having a single video camera when shooting interviews, school plays, etc. Now I can use the real video camera as my primary camera and use this as a secondary camera for closeups.

I don't have to worry about the crummy sound on the 5DM2. Built in mics on expensive video cameras are lame. The one on the 5DM2 is bound to be pathetic. It does have a single mini-plug jack for an external mic, but I'll probably never use it. I'll use the built-in mic to record a reference track to help me sync with the main camera.

The main area where the 5DM2 will shine is with DOF control. Most indie videographers control DOF with Rube Goldberg contraptions that use 35mm camera lenses focused on a piece of ground glass and video the glass. It works, but it's expensive and awkward. With the 5DM2, I can finally control DOF with gear I'm willing to buy and use. It's this one feature that is inspiring the lofty claims of being better than a $100K video camera.

One other big benefit is that it's low light capabilities probably blow away anything close to the same price range. This could make a lot of impossible shots possible for me.

My biggest concern is blending the video from the camera with video from the video camera. It's going to be really hard matching the two. I'm just shooting for fun, so it doesn't have to be perfect, but I still want it to look good.

My wife will love it for casual video shooting, but I'm not sure that it offers a big advantage over a p&s. Personally, the quality of these little mini-shots is usually so bad that I'd hate to waste the storage space.

The 12 minute limit isn't an issue for me. I can see it being an issue for someone that records speeches or other long, uninterrupted video. I don't think I can recall a single time I've shot that much video without a break. I'm certain that I could afford a second or two of interruption.

The limit, BTW, comes from the limit on how big a single file can be on a normal (FAT32 format) CF card. Canon could easily have gotten around the limit by having it write multiple files when the clip got too long. I expect they make this a firmware fix if people complain much.

What would be really cool is if they introduced a real video camera with the imaging guts of the 5D. I don't see any reason why they couldn't retool the XL-H1 to use the same guts but with all the real video camera controls and connnections.

That was long winded, so I'll summarize. It doesn't replace a real video camera. It does some things that only mega-costly video cameras do. It's cool, but it has major limitations.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

An example of how I plan to use it. When I recorded our older son's school play last year, I shot the video with the XH-A1 while my wife shot stills with my camera. The video was OK, but the transitions from wide shots to closeups were really lame. I really wanted a second video camera, but I couldn't operate both video cameras and my wife couldn't use a video camera and a still camera at the same time.

Next year, my wife can shoot all the wide shots with the video camera. I'll use the 5DM2 to video the closeups and I can also take still shots with it. It'll be awesome. I'm sure that the kids in Hollywood have much better shot school plays, but out here in the sticks (we don't even have electricity where I live), it'll set a new standard.

 

[Groucho]

All good points... video is interesting but hardly going to revolutionize anything. Plus I think the relatively (!) small size of the DSLR will make it more difficult to hold smoothly while moving around.

But really, it sounds like it's mainly going to only be any good for still or slow-moving subjects in consistent lighting.

As for 24fps... I think 24 fps is a great feature for home theater applications and I love that BluRay films are encoded at 24 fps, but I have to think that it will die out as a way to shoot new material. The technical reason for 24 fps (as I'm sure you know, Mark) is so that you can move your video onto standard 24 fps film for theatrical showing... but with theaters moving to video projection, that's not such an issue. Meanwhile, 24 fps is generally problematic for home presentation (clunky 3:2 pulldown for NTSC, speedup for PAL) and is noticeably jumpier in panning shots. Then again, that jerkiness can give it a different "look" for those who think the 29.97 fps shot-on-video stuff looks too smooth.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

Here is a link to Laforet's video.

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/22/without-further-ado-reverie/

 

[Chikabowa]

Ah Mark... you beat me to it! Here is the link to the same video (only bigger) on the official Canon site.

 

[mabas9395]

Here is a link to Laforet's video.

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/22/without-further-ado-reverie/

So all I need is that camera and I can make movies like that??? Now all I need is Julia Child's pots and pans and I can make a delicious dinner tonight.

Seriously though, I noticed in the credits that he used a gyro stabilizer, I wonder how bad the shake would be without it.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

So all I need is that camera and I can make movies like that??? Now all I need is Julia Child's pots and pans and I can make a delicious dinner tonight.

Seriously though, I noticed in the credits that he used a gyro stabilizer, I wonder how bad the shake would be without it.

He probably used the gyro on the helicopter shots. His budget for the shoot was $5K.

Did you see his list of lenses that he used? That was a pretty impressive set of gear.

Aside from all the gear, he also carefully crafted the scenes to fit the gear. If you started with a normal script and normal direction, you'd quickly hit areas where this camera wasn't well suited. Because he obviously didn't worry much about the story (I certainly couldn't tell what the heck was going on), he was free to design each scene around how the camera works.

Again, it's an awesome video shooter that can do things (ultra-low light & shallow DOF) that you can't do with anything costing 20 times as much, but it has huge limitations as a general purpose video camera.

 

[proteus]

"giant step in that direction"

Just making the point that although there is still ground to cover Canon has done some amazing things with this camera. It begs the question... why hasn't some of this been incorporated into existing camcorders?

The 12 minute limitation can easily be overcome with a coding change, my Panasonic SD1 had the same problem because of the 4gb file limit, Panasonic has since remedied it. So, shooting time for this DSLR is limited by card size as 100gb is the current highest capacity (see news) it will yield about 5 hours, not bad.

Again, I'm not saying feature films will be produced by this camera, but from a consumer perspective it is an amazing product. If this is just the 1st generation of DSLR's to incorporate this ability what will subsequent ones be like? Boggles my mind...

 

[webshark3]

"giant step in that direction"

Just making the point that although there is still ground to cover Canon has done some amazing things with this camera. It begs the question... why hasn't some of this been incorporated into existing camcorders?

It's not a bad thing, but video and still development (lenses and sensors) have always been unique streams. To integrate them tightly means there will be compromises. And the more people want it, then the more compromises that will be made.

In a few years time, we may have a market full of hybrids that do both functions decently, whereas we could have had distinct products that did them beautifully. Just so you don't think I'm pulling it out of thin air , let's look at history.

Digital caught on because of convenience, not superiority over film. Major features added over the years were driven by market convenience, and again, not by trying to overtake film (face detection, movie modes, megapixels).

Don't get me wrong, the world needs hybrids. As long as they don't lose sight of the big picture (pun slightly intended).

 

[maccagerl]

You might be interested in Vincent's blog- he's posted a behind the scenes video and will be posting some of the RAW clips on Friday.
Anyway, his blog, especially his experience with the new camera, is an interesting read.


http://www.laforetvisuals.com/blog

 

[Groucho]

"giant step in that direction"

Just making the point that although there is still ground to cover Canon has done some amazing things with this camera. It begs the question... why hasn't some of this been incorporated into existing camcorders?

I fail to see just what's so amazing about this on a technical level. Any DSLR with Live View (and maybe even without) has the functionality to produce movies, the only limitation is processing speed, which is increasing all the time (and you would expect a higher-end camera like the 5d to have faster processing.) There's no reason that virtually any of the current DSLRs couldn't do basic movie processing with a firmware update, with the same restrictions as the K20D/D90/5D2, ie, no autofocus and no exposure adjustment, while still having the same benefits of them, ie, the ability to use any lens.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

I fail to see just what's so amazing about this on a technical level. Any DSLR with Live View (and maybe even without) has the functionality to produce movies, the only limitation is processing speed, which is increasing all the time (and you would expect a higher-end camera like the 5d to have faster processing.) There's no reason that virtually any of the current DSLRs couldn't do basic movie processing with a firmware update, with the same restrictions as the K20D/D90/5D2, ie, no autofocus and no exposure adjustment, while still having the same benefits of them, ie, the ability to use any lens.

I think you are oversimplifying some things and are mistaken about some others. You make it sound like a trivial feature to add, but if that was the case it would have been added when Live View first came out. Obviously, there are some complications. Processing speed is certainly one. I would bet good money that the D90 is limited to 720P because of processing speed.

Another significant issue is the sensor. The image from the sensor on the D90 is polled over a relatively long period of time. For rapid motion, the subject can move visibly during the polling. The result is a "jello" motion. I haven't seen it, but people online are complaining about it. We won't know whether Canon has overcome this issue with the 5D until we have more real-world reports.

As for auto-focus and auto-exposure, the 5DM2 does both during video. The auto-focus is via contrast detection, so it is pretty slow. Of course, that's how most video cameras work already, so it isn't really a step backward for shooting video unless you have a video camera that supplements with an external autofocus system.

The auto-exposure of the 5D is still a bit confusing to me. From what I can tell, getting it to auto-expose is easy. Getting it to lock exposure is a bit more work. The shutter speed is fixed at 1/60 or 1/125 (which is probably all you would want for 99% of 30P shooting). You can control the aperture while shooting and let the camera set the ISO, or you can do the reverse.

While you can't set the complete exposure manually, you can lock it with the exposure lock button. The problem with that is that just about every serious Canon shooter than I know has already set the exposure lock button up as a focus control button.

If you don't think that the D90 and 5DM2 are amazing, you should spend some time on some serious video forums. People are practically wetting themselves with excitement. On the other hand, they are infuriated by the small but critical limitations of these products.

 

[Groucho]

I think you are oversimplifying some things and are mistaken about some others. You make it sound like a trivial feature to add, but if that was the case it would have been added when Live View first came out. Obviously, there are some complications. Processing speed is certainly one. I would bet good money that the D90 is limited to 720P because of processing speed.

I would agree. I would also say that processing speed is, by far, the primary difficulty.

Another significant issue is the sensor. The image from the sensor on the D90 is polled over a relatively long period of time. For rapid motion, the subject can move visibly during the polling. The result is a "jello" motion. I haven't seen it, but people online are complaining about it. We won't know whether Canon has overcome this issue with the 5D until we have more real-world reports.

Exactly - as I'll follow up on later in this message.

As for auto-focus and auto-exposure, the 5DM2 does both during video. The auto-focus is via contrast detection, so it is pretty slow. Of course, that's how most video cameras work already, so it isn't really a step backward for shooting video unless you have a video camera that supplements with an external autofocus system.

The auto-exposure of the 5D is still a bit confusing to me. From what I can tell, getting it to auto-expose is easy. Getting it to lock exposure is a bit more work. The shutter speed is fixed at 1/60 or 1/125 (which is probably all you would want for 99% of 30P shooting). You can control the aperture while shooting and let the camera set the ISO, or you can do the reverse.

This is the first I've heard of it doing these features. This is part of the problem, Nikon with the D90 and Canon with the 5D2 are releasing incomplete information, which is frustrating when they're hyping the video feature as hard as they are. As far as I can tell, both companies are completely mute about such basic things as focus and exposure.

If you don't think that the D90 and 5DM2 are amazing, you should spend some time on some serious video forums. People are practically wetting themselves with excitement. On the other hand, they are infuriated by the small but critical limitations of these products.

Well, I think they're being sold a false bill of goods. See my mention above - the companies are being extremely vague about just what their video features can and cannot do. Consumers are being sold this as if you can throw away your camcorder, but the reality is far different. Heck, you couldn't even record Illuminations with one of these!

Amazing cameras? Perhaps. Amazing camorders? Debatable. Amazing on a technical level? I'm not convinced. Please don't misunderstand me - I'm talking purely about the video recording on a technical level. Nothing else.

On a purely technical level, I find the D90's video feature to be no more impressive than the K20D's 21fps capture, and that was announced almost a year ago. Nikon just went a different route - instead of 21 separate photos per second, they give you more lower-resolution photos per second with more compression and with a basic microphone. Without knowing the tech specs of either, I suspect that either camera could have the same functionality as the other, but obviously outputting separate pictures requres writing a lot more data, so you will fill the buffer much faster.

The 5DM2 costs almost 3x as much as the D90, and it offers higher resolution but possibly the same limitations. I'm not sure how this is so technically amazing. We're still talking about cameras with 14.6 or 12mp outputting <2mp video or one with 21mp outputting just over 2mp video. Even if it adds AF and AE, those are features that are pretty common in LV nowadays. The lack of more processing power (and speed to write to the card) is the only reason why they couldn't capture even higher resolutions.

Again, I believe the only technical differences between these cameras and any others that have Live View functionality is the processing speed and presence of a microphone. All it takes is grabbing the Live View picture at a lower resolution and dumping it to a memory card quickly enough. Heck, Sony's DSLRs could probably beat out most any others at video due to their faster-than-the-rest contrast-detection AF and in-body IS. But, they forgot to put in a microphone, so...

 

[handicap18]

After looking through some posts over on the RED web site I think that what Nikon and Canon have done is thrown a serious wrench in the video camera industry and they are changing thier ways over there.

They are producing $17,500 video camera bodies and $6,500 lenses (RED 18-50mm F2.8 CF LENS). While the Red Scarlet or Red ONE or Red Epic are "better" with MUCH higher fps, full AF and so on, they are also 5x + the price of the 5D MkII and 17x+ the price of the D90. A Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 lens is $450 vs $6,500 for RED's 18-50 f/2.8.

According to posts over there, RED is seriously looking into making themselves a dSLR camera like the D90 and 5D MkII.
We believe, and are developing for late 2009, a replacement for DSLRs. Currently, we call it a DSMC (Digital Still & Motion Camera).

While (insert code name) is not a replacement for Epic or Scarlet, it is strategically targeted at the DSLR space. As Nikon and Canon release their 720P and 1080P, respectively, DSLRs with video capture... RED has a more advanced view of the future. We look forward to rapidly pushing the "big guys" along in feature sets and capabilities.

RED firmly believes in higher resolution, higher S/N, higher DNR, higher frame rates, smaller bodies, more system flexibility, and many more options as we move forward in camera development.

The strength of RED is in our sensor development program, REDCODE, and having no legacy platforms to deal with. That left us free to explore, develop and prepare to deliver a new platform. DSMC.

We think all our customers already know what the future will bring. They are just afraid to wish for it for fear of disappointment. Fear not. Sleep tight. RED is awake.



And on the 5D MkII, Michael Reichmann says this:

"Holy tamale Batman. This isn't the 720P of the Nikon D90, which uses simple motion JPG as its codec . This is 1080 30P using the latest H264 video codec at a data rate of over 38 megabits / second. If these number are greek to you – relax. They won't be after a while, because high quality video is coming to a DSLR near you a hell of a lot faster than you ever thought it would. (Scoffers – you can now eat your hats. Bon appetit!)

The bottom line on this is that at least as far as the specs go, image quality is full HD, 1920 X 1080 Progressive, at 30 frames per second. The recording data rate is faster than on some pro video cameras. The depth of field is that of a 35mm full-frame camera, not one with a sensor 5X to 9X smaller.

The codec is H264. This means high data compression combined with very high image quality. State of the art. By the way, if you need to read a primer on digital video you might want to have a look at my Understanding Video tutorial, published just a week ago. It will help explain some of the unfamiliar jargon."

"I was on the lookout for Jellocam, an artifact that is seen on any motion camera that uses a CMOS sensor. This can be caused by the sensor not recording the image all at once, but rather in a pass from top to bottom, which means that if anything is moving in the frame during that 1/30 of a second it will appears to shimmy and bend.

This is a problem that is much discussed in the video world. The highly regarded Sony EX-1 (which Chris and I, and many pros and broadcasters use) has it, but to such a small extent as to not be much of an issue at all. The RED One camera has it, but so little that it doesn't seem to bother film makers shooting multi-million dollar feature films. The new D90 shows it quite badly on the brief demo clips that have appeared online, but how big a deal this turns out to be still remains to be seen once demo cameras become available to knowledgeable reviewers.

As for the Canon 5D MKII – I see no jello-ish artifacts. I'm not saying that they may not be there, but in the day of shooting that I did, taking quite a few shots to specially look for it, I didn't see any."

When you taking a camera in the $999-3000 range and having it do similar things of a $17,000-250,000 camera then that is pretty revolutionary. The video people seem to be beyond excited this new less expensive gear. Is it perfect, no, but you will see a lot of independant movie makers using the 5D MkII over a RED when its 5x less and thats just for the body alone.

If you've seen some of the short clips produced by some video makers with this camera you'll know what kind of impact it will have.

It wont have the same impact on the mom and dad shooting video of their kids play or birthday. At least not for now.

 

[Groucho]

FWIW, I am familiar with h264 and bandwidth requirements. These are not revolutionary changes but merely the things that extra processing power allows you. The 5Dm2 does have pretty high bandwidth, I did notice that early on, not much problem there. I'd be curious how big the buffer is in the camera, that's a huge amount of data to write to the card and I can only assume that it can buffer a ton of data, which would mean the camera's hung up waiting to output it all after you're done taking a video.

Ultimately, though, you're still talking about a still camera trying to do things that the platform was never designed to do. The reason it's there is because it's almost a free byproduct of the direction the technology is doing. Take a DSLR with live view and contrast detect AF and the ability to process data quickly and output to a card quickly and you've got everything you need to capture video. There's no breakthrough here, just basic evolution. (I doubt we'll see any really sizable breakthroughs in DSLRs any more, though Fuji's high-dynamic-range sensors may qualify.)

But you're still stuck with a device that is writing to a flash drive, is inherently unstable compared to a larger, shoulder-mounted video camera, is very limited in its flexibility (ie, only 1080P 30fps, no more or less, no choice of codecs, etc), lenses that are designed with still photography needs in mind (no power zoom and can they be manually focused remotely?), and a sensor that is inappropriate for such recording (21mp outputting 2mp - a natively lower-resolution sensor would be better in many ways.) The small size of a DSLR also means it's that much more difficult to be steady if you have cables coming out for microphones, remote control of camera functions, larger storage devices, etc.