3 running days/week to 4 days/week

[Figment1990]

For those of you running the Glass Slipper Challenge (or have experience with other back-to-back races, such as Dumbo Double Dare), what's your opinion of where to start adding in the 4th running day? I have run 3 days/week for 2 1/2 years but I'm ready to add a 4th day. I'm not planning to "race" either the 10k or the half, just jog at my usual pace for the half, and take walk breaks and photo breaks during the 10k (something I don't usually do).

Would you run M-W-F-Sa (or some other Run-Rest-Run-Rest-Run-Run-Rest) with the long run on Saturday? Or would you run M-W-R-Sa with the long run on Saturday. At first I thought, oh, I'll start with M-W-R-Sa and then move it to Friday closer to the race weekend. But then I realized that the first few weeks of training will still be relatively "shorter" weekend runs anyway as I recover from W&D so perhaps I should just go right for M-W-F-Sa. (I'm planning 4, 6, 7 milers for the rest of november weekends).

Also, I am debating if I should do a different approach to these day-before-long-run sessions. Should I do a walk/run combination to "ease" into it? I don't do well with quick intervals (like 1:1), but I could handle something like 6:1 or something I think (I'm not a galloway interval person normally).

Just throwing this out there, and wondering what other's GSC approaches are going to be.

 

[Diskidatheart]

If it were me, I'd probably consistently run 4 days a week going forward, but I'd switch up the days that I run based on weekly mileage. For example, you should scale back every so often in your mileage to give your body a rest. For those scale back weeks, you might want to run a shorter weekend run and alternate the days during the week (you could even run T-W-Th) and then a shorter run on Saturday. For the longer run weeks, you could run T-Th-Sat-Sun, with a shorter run on Sat and long run on Sunday to try and mimic the back to back race.

You could also follow a variation of Hal Higdon's Novice training plans which have you run on T-W-Th-Sat. Since there are back to back races, you could run T-W-Th-Sat for the first part of the training (keeping in mind that Tues and Thurs are recovery runs and Wed is a semi-long run and Sat is a long run). In the second part of the training, you could run T, W, F, Sat or some variation of that.

I'm sure others will have advice too, but this could be a good starting point for a plan.

 

[jmasgat]

Just wondering....Is there a specific reason you are adding the 4th run, e.g. you feel that 3 has not worked for you recently in terms of training? I'm only asking because is 3 runs/week works for you, I don't think it's necessary to add a 4th just for GSC. You could do an occasional back to back just to get the feel for it.

I run 3x/week and that's all I plan to do for training (along with the usual XT). Another idea may be do do a XT workout the day before your long run to get the feeling of running on "tired legs".

 

[paxsarah]

In 2011 I was gearing up for 2012 Goofy, and I'm pretty sure that in the early part of the summer I moved from 3 to 4 days of running, Tu/Th/Sa/Su generally, but not rigidly. Then when I started my actual training plan, I ran 5 days, T/W/T/S/S. Now that I've been doing triathlons, I actually have more training days per week (6-7) but fewer run days (2-4), and I agree that it's possible to simulate running on tired legs the day after a challenging strength or bike session.

As for run/walk intervals, although I'm pretty much a run/walker for distances of 13.1 and longer, I don't know that I'd recommend it for your GSC training if you're not planning on doing it in the race. I wouldn't rule out taking a walk break if you feel you need it in the moment, but I wouldn't build in intervals if you can otherwise run straight through and don't plan to race with run/walk.

 

[flatlandcycle]

I would pay attention to your total weekly mileage right now. Be sure not to increase total weekly mileage more than 10%. Adding an extra day can increase chances of injury. It would be very smart to ease into it.

I used a walk/run program for Goofy in 2012. The extra "run" day started as a 3 mile walk. I added a mile of running to this walk every week or so. It felt very strange to be walking at first. Gallowalking got me from a 2:15 half to a sub 2:00 half.

 

[Figment1990]

I would pay attention to your total weekly mileage right now. Be sure not to increase total weekly mileage more than 10%. Adding an extra day can increase chances of injury. It would be very smart to ease into it.

I used a walk/run program for Goofy in 2012. The extra "run" day started as a 3 mile walk. I added a mile of running to this walk every week or so. It felt very strange to be walking at first. Gallowalking got me from a 2:15 half to a sub 2:00 half.

Thank you everyone for your ideas and thoughts!

I do try very hard to watch the weekly mileage increase as well because I find that building up slowly works best for keeping me uninjured. So yeah, I'd be looking to keep it around 10% increase or less. I was thinking of walking the 4th day to start. Will that help prepare me for the glass slipper you think? I am not planning to "race" the 10k that weekend- hopefully walk as much as possible with still finishing without being swept (I assume they sweep during the 10k). I am going to run the half, but am also planning to take breaks for a few pictures.

Finally another piece of this puzzle I forgot to mention is that I am also doing the tinker bell half in jan, so I need to keep that in mind too.

To answer, yes I was looking to add the 4th day just because of the glass slipper. I generally prefer other cross training (cardio strength stuff usually) but have backed off that recent as I was ramping up for wine and dine and also dealing w some other personal time issues. I never thought of not running a fourth day to prepare. Hmmm.

I find this whole process so interesting. I also found that I like adding a mile to my long run for about 3 weeks and then a cutback week. Until my long runs are 10 or more. That seemed to work for me this year so far.

Why isn't there a glass slipper challenge and a pink coast to coast medal Galloway plan? I modify them anyhow, but I'd like to see his approach.

 

[cewait]

I have run 8 Goofys and have generally run 3x a week. I think 2-4 back to back runs is a great idea for understanding how it feels to run on dead legs. I would reverse the traditional order and run a half distance run the day after the long run - and then only a few times.

A preferable way to increase cardio work may be to add a hard cycle day to your weekly schedule. You get similar benefit with little pounding.

Just my 2 cents

 

[joan4mickey]

I have run 8 Goofys and have generally run 3x a week. I think 2-4 back to back runs is a great idea for understanding how it feels to run on dead legs. I would reverse the traditional order and run a half distance run the day after the long run - and then only a few times.

A preferable way to increase cardio work may be to add a hard cycle day to your weekly schedule. You get similar benefit with little pounding.

Just my 2 cents

Could you please explain the "run on dead legs" more?

I run 3x a week and have three back to back runs planned, starting in early January and then every other week. I was going to go short then long, but may change after hearing more on your thoughts. I want to finish back to back runs two weeks out from the weekend incase something is hurting or I feel I may be falling apart....so far the 50's have been good to me, I don't want to push my luck.
My "short" runs will be around 6 miles twice a week. One of those will be a tempo one week and then speed drills the next. My long run will be starting at 6 and build a mile every week. Six is just what I run, it takes a hour or so depending on how much I walk. I also cross train, working on core and strength 2-3 times a week.
TIA

 

[PrincessV]

I also found that I like adding a mile to my long run for about 3 weeks and then a cutback week. Until my long runs are 10 or more.

This is almost identical to what I like, too. A build up over 2-3 weeks, then a cut back, then build again. But past 11 miles I'm better with a cut back every other week.

FWIW, my GSC plan is to start doing back-to-backs early (as in this weekend), but spread them out and do at least half (more if I feel it's needed) with the longer run first, shorter run the second day. I'm looking at 8.5 Sat/2 Sun this week, 3 Sat/10 Sun in two weeks, 3 Sat/11 Sun two weeks after that, 12 Sat/ 4 Sun two weeks after that, then taper for the WDW Half, take a week for recovery, 5 Sat/11 Sun Jan. 25/26, 12 Sat/6 Sun Feb. 8/9, then taper. The rest will all be 3-day running weeks. All of the back-to-backs will be at an easy pace.

 

[dragitoff]

I'm not coach, but I play one of his students so I'll chime in on the dead legs comment. I run a modified Higdon plan when training as my understanding of the dead legs is you learn to push through when your legs are tired. I currently run Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday for my training programs. Sometimes I have to do my long run on Sunday rather than Saturday, but that's my schedule 90% of the time. By running 3 consecutive days during the week, I'm usually a little tired by the 3rd day, even though my longest mid-week run during marathon training is 8 miles. I usually force myself to do speedwork (fartlek intervals) on Thursdays as well. Yeah, I'm a glutton for punishment. Where I run has a few long hills so I don't do hillwork since I consider them part of my daily run. For me, this process has made me a much faster and stronger runner. Last year, I was running about 1:30mm slower on my long runs than I currently am now. I've PR'd every single race I've run this year (Marathon, 3 half marathons, 5k's, and 4 mile trail race) not to mention I've beaten each of those times during training runs without a max effort. It works.

 

[joan4mickey]

Thanks for the input Dragitoff I used to run 5 straight days a week until I had IT band issues in 2010 and the dr. and pt suggested 3 day was a better plan. And I always go to Hal's plans and then modify to work for me. I used his 3 days a week for the WDW full in 2012.

 

[cewait]

Could you please explain the "run on dead legs" more?

I run 3x a week and have three back to back runs planned, starting in early January and then every other week. I was going to go short then long, but may change after hearing more on your thoughts. I want to finish back to back runs two weeks out from the weekend incase something is hurting or I feel I may be falling apart....so far the 50's have been good to me, I don't want to push my luck.
My "short" runs will be around 6 miles twice a week. One of those will be a tempo one week and then speed drills the next. My long run will be starting at 6 and build a mile every week. Six is just what I run, it takes a hour or so depending on how much I walk. I also cross train, working on core and strength 2-3 times a week.
TIA

Having trained and run triathlons I brought over the idea of a modified brick workout. In real simple terms a brick workout is an intermediate bike ride immediately followed by a run. The thought behind the workout is nothing more than creating a mental tool set to help triathletes go from the bike to the run. The mind and body take issue when converting from peddling circles to running elongated strides. The run portion of the brick is relatively short; maybe 2-3 miles or just long enough so that the athlete can push through the transition and have a little time running in a natural stride.

It's my observation that the second day of a multiday running event is not unlike the first miles of the run leg of a longer triathlon. There are many messages from the brain early in that run saying stop, my legs are sore, my legs are tired, I have no energy. I find that once a runner gets 1-2 miles on their legs during the second day of a multiday running event they have survived the worst part of the day. My thoughts are that training should get one through that part of the run and then give the runner a few miles of running to reinforce the tools set that got them past the negative signals.

What I find when runners try to run a series of 10 mile runs followed by a 20 mile on the next day is that many of these runners are coming up injured. Basically, they are starting and running the long run tired or slightly injured (with some sort of ‘–itis’) and the pushing off into a chronic injury situation. The worst case is they are sidelined, the next worse is they stop the second run to avoid injury and end up missing the long run for that weekend.

Even though I am not a proponent of a large number of back to back runs, there is one benefit of running them. That is learning how to manage recovery between runs. The simple workaround to long back-to-back runs is to cycle or do another non-impact training event for a period of time equal to or slightly longer than it would take you to make the shorter run and follow that up with a long run the following day. This will help you learn what works for you with regards to diet and recovery.

Hope this helps

 

[joan4mickey]

Thanks Coach

So, I could start with riding by bicycle the day before my LR, that would still give me at least two days of strength, core and stretch. I assume any non impact cardio such as swimming or elliptical would work?

 

[cewait]

Thanks Coach

So, I could start with riding by bicycle the day before my LR, that would still give me at least two days of strength, core and stretch. I assume any non impact cardio such as swimming or elliptical would work?

Swimming is a tough one. Yes, if you are out swimming at a rather hard effort. Not so much if one has to revocer every 2-300 meters or less.