240 Gators Caught at Disney World Over Last 10 Years (link)

[HopperFan]

I understand what you are saying but with some CM's call the gators pets and frankly not taking the possible threat seriously maybe the reporting of gators for removal had gone down.

The man who is telling this "story" (and he's the only one I've heard use the pet story) and not a consistent story at that, was so shocked, so alarmed that they did not take him seriously that he never made any attempt to call, write or contact Disney management. A man who is a lawyer who would know exactly how to properly address this with Disney. He went home and did nothing. Now, after this terrible incident, over a year later decides he has all the time in the world to talk to all the national press outlets to tell his story. Maybe he's trying to drum up some business, maybe he's been in touch with the family and maybe he wanted his 15 minutes of fame. And maybe it's just a story ........... we don't know, we will never know ......... all I know is if it's true and he was as shocked as he said he was - my lawyer self would have been all over contacting Disney.

Now to the opposite, my DS was at Disney sometime this spring, not sure which trip, and was heading in to the MK on the monorail. He spotted a gator in the pond behind Space Mountain that he estimated in the 6 foot range. When he got to the park he immediately reported it, was taken very seriously and CM was off to make a call. Honestly NONE of us have any idea the workings of the wildlife program and we have no idea if they have reduced their staff.

 

[wdwrule]

And yet, from other threads on this subject, "foreigners" seem to know all about it.

What about the "foreigners" who aren't on the disboards?

 

[LeeAndRobin]

View attachment 177243

That document was last revised in 2008, so it's 8 years old. More importantly, it just describes the methodology of how alligator populations are estimated. It does not give actual data from year to year.

http://www.wec.ufl.edu/coop/research.php

http://www.wec.ufl.edu/coop/research.php

Just another general description of methodology. Digging deeper, not ONE of the papers listed on the site deal with year to year data on alligator populations. Not one. Also, the list of annual reports ends in 2010. Furthermore, the last annual report in 2010 has not one mention of alligators.

http://m.myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/managed/alligator/data/

This link is just a link to the FWC stats and tables on nuisance gators. Yet again, no year-to-year data on nest counts and egg estimates.

There is a HUGE wealth of data there. Give it a try. I've led you straight to the water. Whether you drink from it is your choice.

Well, apparently not, given that neither of us seem to have found any year-to-year data yet, only general methodologies and nuisance gator data.

 

[LeanneDownUnder]

What about the "foreigners" who aren't on the disboards?

What about the rest of the the USA who aren't on Disboards lets take a survey?
Come on get real.

I don't understand why people are still on the blame Disney ... too many Gaters .. there has to be a reason game and have to find someone or something to blame.

Foreigner here .. we have Crocs in our land, nowhere near where I live but I do know If I go to the top end not to go near the water at dusk or in the in the night, personally don't think I would go near any body of fresh water at any time in the top end!. I also know that there are Alligators in the South of the USA and thats where Florida is right? How do I know this .. I watch a little TV, I check out trip advisor before I travel, It's kind of general knowledge stuff.

 

[wdwrule]

What about the rest of the the USA who aren't on Disboards lets take a survey?
Come on get real.

I don't understand why people are still on the blame Disney ... too many Gaters .. there has to be a reason game and have to find someone or something to blame.

Foreigner here .. we have Crocs in our land, nowhere near where I live but I do know If I go to the top end not to go near the water at dusk or in the in the night, personally don't think I would go near any body of fresh water at any time in the top end!. I also know that there are Alligators in the South of the USA and thats where Florida is right? How do I know this .. I watch a little TV, I check out trip advisor before I travel, It's kind of general knowledge stuff.

All I'm saying is they need more explicit signing with holding family activities close to the water's edge. And I think most people have been in agreeance to put up better signage to inform the many guests that visit this destination because some Disney resorts, again, hold/host family activities near the water's edge. I'm all about safety for others not just myself. Many other destinations for travel have specific warning signs as well such as possibilities for bears along trail, etc. If all travel destinations with a potential dangerous animal issue presumed that all travelers came in knowing and being educated about the situation, then perhaps they wouldn't need signs. It's a liability issue. Otherwise Disney wouldn't have been scrambling the next day after the incident, and a few days later posting more explicit signs. So for the travelers that research wildlife and what to do in certain situations with them.....great! But not all travelers do and big businesses know that. That's why they typically post explicit signs like Disney just did, especially if they hold and encourage family activity near the source.

 

[LeanneDownUnder]

All I'm saying is they need more explicit signing with holding family activities close to the water's edge. And I think most people have been in agreeance to put up better signage to inform the many guests that visit this destination because some Disney resorts, again, hold/host family activities near the water's edge. I'm all about safety for others not just myself. Many other destinations for travel have specific warning signs as well such as possibilities for bears along trail, etc. If all travel destinations with a potential dangerous animal issue presumed that all travelers came in knowing and being educated about the situation, then perhaps they wouldn't need signs. It's a liability issue. Otherwise Disney wouldn't have been scrambling the next day after the incident, and a few days later posting more explicit signs. So for the travelers that research wildlife and what to do in certain situations with them.....great! But not all travelers do and big businesses know that. That's why they typically post explicit signs like Disney just did, especially if they hold and encourage family activity near the source.

And this where we will disagree.
You can not ever, ever protect yourself from every possible situation and you can not reasonably expect to be protected from every reasonable situation because of a sign. Because accidents are always going to happen wrong place, wrong time events, signs don't stop spider bites, or snake bites, sure you can have a sign and you can watch out and you can live your life in fear watching for them because you have seen the sign, but accidents still happen!!

Maybe you misunderstood, I don't go and research "wildlife" of areas I'm going to visit specifically, like I said it's gathered general knowledge that you get. Like Florida has swamps .. swamps have alligators .. you know that kind of stuff.

Disney posting signs is a knee jerk reaction to an accident. Great that they are there but really don't you think everyone in the world now knows there are alligators in Disneyworld after this?

 

[wdwrule]

Yes I understand accidents can happen whether there's a sign or not, so then why have caution/warning signs at all.....anywhere?

Great that they are there but really don't you think everyone in the world know knows there are alligators in Disneyworld after this?

Wow. Just sad.

 

[romitaz]

That document was last revised in 2008, so it's 8 years old. More importantly, it just describes the methodology of how alligator populations are estimated. It does not give actual data from year to year.


Just another general description of methodology. Digging deeper, not ONE of the papers listed on the site deal with year to year data on alligator populations. Not one. Also, the list of annual reports ends in 2010. Furthermore, the last annual report in 2010 has not one mention of alligators.


This link is just a link to the FWC stats and tables on nuisance gators. Yet again, no year-to-year data on nest counts and egg estimates.



Well, apparently not, given that neither of us seem to have found any year-to-year data yet, only general methodologies and nuisance gator data.

Look, I showed you links as to how the surveys are done. From those surveys, which may be internal documents for FWC use only, the FWC says the population is stable. Do you not believe the folks whose JOB it is to check on this? Maybe they are lying? Here is one final attempt. If you are still skeptical, maybe you should contact the FWC yourself. I'm sure they can help you with whatever you need. Either way, this nonissue has been done to death.

 

[aprincessatlast]

And this where we will disagree.

Disney posting signs is a knee jerk reaction to an accident. Great that they are there but really don't you think everyone in the world now knows there are alligators in Disneyworld after this?

You can't be serious? No the whole world, nor half, nor anywhere near that know that there are gators in WDW. Not everyone has the same interest as you.

 

[Ursula's Apprentice]

You can't be serious? No the whole world, nor half, nor anywhere near that know that there are gators in WDW. Not everyone has the same interest as you.

I think the point was that while they might not have known prior to this event, they ought to now, being that it's been all over the news, everywhere...

 

[aprincessatlast]

I think the point was that while they might not have known prior to this event, they ought to now, being that it's been all over the news, everywhere...

Yes like I said do you think everyone has the same interest as you? Like watching or listening to the news? Planning a disney vacation on an online forum? Researching a trip massively ahead of time. Yes still, even after the incident the whole world does not know this. In a matter of months people will travel there who have never been. They will come from all over and will have never heard about this incident. Seriously the world is a big big place with lots of different people from all different walks of life.

 

[Nancyg56]

What I took from the aftermath of this tragedy is that we cannot assume that because I know something, others should know that information as well. That because I understand that a no swimming sign means stay out of the water does not mean that others process that warning as I do. I also do not see the need to assign blame here; not the parents who may or may not have even seen the sign, no the alligator, who are jus being alligators, or Disney, who posted no swimming signs.

Disney is taking action now, and I don't see any reason to analyze why. Personally, I think more signage and fences will only serve as deterrents to people who will allow themselves to be deterred, but if it keeps one person safe who otherwise would have been harmed, that I have no issue with it. So we will see. I do wish that people did understand how the law works in regards to removing "unwanted" alligators, and stop holding Disney accountable for being in an area that is home to them. It is naïve to think that Disney can just remove them, or that they were not following the terms of their permit as they monitored the alligator population in their parks and resorts.

 

[LeeAndRobin]

Look, I showed you links as to how the surveys are done. From those surveys, which may be internal documents for FWC use only, the FWC says the population is stable. Do you not believe the folks whose JOB it is to check on this? Maybe they are lying? Here is one final attempt. If you are still skeptical, maybe you should contact the FWC yourself. I'm sure they can help you with whatever you need. Either way, this nonissue has been done to death.

Yet another methodology reference, not actual data. This discussion started with me asking for hard data, and you becoming snarky and telling me to look for it myself. When I couldn't find any data, only methodology and nuisance gator references, you posted some links that were basically what I had *already* found, which did not include data. Now you have posted ANOTHER methodology reference. Now you're conveniently trying to change the discussion to make it seem that I don't believe the interpretation of the data by people who do the counting. Perhaps because YOU can't find any data either?

Whether I believe "the people who's job it is" to count the alligators is irrelevant at this point. The point is that the data is apparently not publicly accessible, and in the mean time you have been a number one a** about my questions for clarification and a pointer to the data. I tried to be nice. I'm done.

 

[STLstone]

This is a great example of the divide on this issue.

this fact: "Disney has been actively removing alligators" is viewed 2 different ways by 2 main groups of people:

1: "See, Disney was proactively doing everything in their power to deal with alligators!"

2: "See, Disney knew gators were a potential hazard to their guests for years and never put up signs to warn them!"

 

[mcjaco]

All I'm saying is they need more explicit signing with holding family activities close to the water's edge. And I think most people have been in agreeance to put up better signage to inform the many guests that visit this destination because some Disney resorts, again, hold/host family activities near the water's edge. I'm all about safety for others not just myself. Many other destinations for travel have specific warning signs as well such as possibilities for bears along trail, etc. If all travel destinations with a potential dangerous animal issue presumed that all travelers came in knowing and being educated about the situation, then perhaps they wouldn't need signs. It's a liability issue. Otherwise Disney wouldn't have been scrambling the next day after the incident, and a few days later posting more explicit signs. So for the travelers that research wildlife and what to do in certain situations with them.....great! But not all travelers do and big businesses know that. That's why they typically post explicit signs like Disney just did, especially if they hold and encourage family activity near the source.

There's a reason for those signs about bears, etc. Someone did something stupid, like approaching one on a path, and got mauled.

Some humans are dumb. Signage won't protect all of us. If the signs were up before the incident and this still happened, we'd still have people blaming Disney for not doing enough.

 

[romitaz]

Ok, let's take a minimalist set of numbers. F&W says that there are 1.3 million gators in Fla. If we assume less than 10% of those breed (100,000) and each of those only produce 1 young which survives to adulthood, that's 100,000 new adult gators every year. If 10,000 are culled each year, that leaves a net increase of 90,000 gators/year. That certainly doesn't sound like a stable population to me, even if it's half that number. In all likelyhood, the number is higher. So how exactly do you conclude that the population is "stable"?

You started with this in "answer"which was wrong on several levels. You took many assumptions that had no basis on anything approaching a fact to show that the alligator population must be exploding. I stated that surveys are done every year. That is how they know. You wanted PROOF. Well, the proof is that many people make it their life's work to monitor the alligator population and they have stated that the population is stable. That was not good enough for you. You need data. If you would have looked through the data I gave, you would see that many many more alligators are harvested than your arbitrary 10,000. Well, I for one will take them at their word. You keep acting like you NEED proof that they are out of control for some reason. Call them. I am sure they will give you whatever data you want. It honestly sounds like this thread is in serious need of a lock as well. It is just going in circles now. CHEERS

 

[romitaz]

There's a reason for those signs about bears, etc. Someone did something stupid, like approaching one on a path, and got mauled.

Some humans are dumb. Signage won't protect all of us. If the signs were up before the incident and this still happened, we'd still have people blaming Disney for not doing enough.

I very much agree. This is my favorite sign:



This says so much about some humans! Don't molest that alligator!!!

 

[wdwrule]

There's a reason for those signs about bears, etc. Someone did something stupid, like approaching one on a path, and got mauled.

Some humans are dumb. Signage won't protect all of us. If the signs were up before the incident and this still happened, we'd still have people blaming Disney for not doing enough.

True but I guess you just gotta start somewhere.

 

[wdwrule]

I very much agree. This is my favorite sign:

View attachment 177894

This says so much about some humans! Don't molest that alligator!!!

 

[LeanneDownUnder]

Yes I understand accidents can happen whether there's a sign or not, so then why have caution/warning signs at all.....anywhere?

Well I guess As my response was to your initial comment that Disney needed "More explicit signing with holding family activities close to the water's edge" I don't how much more explicit than "Alligators and snakes in this area - Stay away from the water" they need to be. I think that people need to take some responsibility and use some common sense for themselves and not wait for a warning sign for further instructions beyond that.

You can't be serious? No the whole world, nor half, nor anywhere near that know that there are gators in WDW. Not everyone has the same interest as you.

What you think this was just something that made the news in the USA? It was all over the news print and TV down here for days this is "Disneyworld Happiest place on earth".. please don't think the worlds media don't like to share stories like this. It was all over our news for days.

Disney is taking action now, and I don't see any reason to analyze why. Personally, I think more signage and fences will only serve as deterrents to people who will allow themselves to be deterred, but if it keeps one person safe who otherwise would have been harmed, that I have no issue with it. So we will see. I do wish that people did understand how the law works in regards to removing "unwanted" alligators, and stop holding Disney accountable for being in an area that is home to them. It is naïve to think that Disney can just remove them, or that they were not following the terms of their permit as they monitored the alligator population in their parks and resorts.

Totally agree and that was my point!! At some point we have to take responsibility for our own actions.