2025 Condo Meeting Information - Renting

[Sandisw]

One thing I do wonder about DVC renting is; can they change the rules of the points? Let's say I have 50 points in holding, but I decide to exchange them for a cruise or an annual pass with MMB. When DVC controls them are they no longer in holding?

They are allowed to use the points to take rooms.

But, you can’t trade points for an exchange within the last 4 months of your UY once you are within those months.

My guess is it would be a unique situation that someone has holding points that they are using, as it would have to be a last minute cruis, if you are even allowed to use holding points…not sure.

For the AP, I believe that they can remove holding penalty because they are taking a room to rent to pay for the trade.

 

[Sandisw]

Just a quibble, but I don't think we really know this for certain. My understanding is that DVC has to abide by the same rules as individual owners and can't take rooms out of the system until the 11 month window opens up (and, similarly, can only take 7 nights worth of inventory out of the system at that 11-month mark). So, could DVC, in theory, be doing the equivalent of walking some of the December resort view studios because they know those have pretty high margins for renting and are booked very quickly by owners? Seems to me they could.

But, maybe going to the effort of something like that to juice a few more dollars out of their rentals isn't really worth it when you have as many points as they do to rent. Just do large grabs of inventory periodically, list them for the full rack rate, and then if they don't go, throw some discounts on them, and they'll likely still have a very large profit margin. Or, maybe they have ways that allow them to easily and automatically take inventory at the 11-month mark?

I think we just don't really know how DVC works this. What we do know, is they really don't have any limitation on renting for commercial purposes while individual owners do, albeit a rather vague standard that allows us to debate endlessly on these boards what is and is not a violation .

Edit: I don't think DVC has limitations on renting the points we exchange. I think they do have limits on there 2% ownership they retain, although I am not the foremost expert in those rules.

Any points that DVD owns can be used…they just have to follow the booking rules.

Any rooms being taken because of exchanges is only limited by the actual exchanges going.

So, if the average points being exchanged is 20%c then that is what gets taken.

That’s why I do not consider that as DVc commercial renting because really, all they are doing is renting the cash room for the owner to use their DVC as intended…which is stay at DVC resorts or exchange out.

Now, I said this last year and I think the move by DVC to offer owners other opportunities to exchange points was a way to shift things from the open rental market to them.

They can either take the rooms and rent the, or it gives them more points to sell as OTU points…

 

[AstroBlasters]

If I managed to book every single Thursday - Monday during May, September and December and decided to rent it all out. Why should that be a problem? I mean obviously I don’t have a reservation I can walk so I would have to pickup from walkers - by doing so you and every other member have the same opportunity to pickup the same dates as I have. I have no advantage - only DVC have that, they take rooms before the 8am mark.

I know DVC is allowed to commercial renting and spec renting for that matter. But you condoning DVC’s actions but not other owners - that’s double standard - regardless of DVC is allowed or not. You can’t hide behind the rules. Those that also claim that owners renting are the cause of lack of inventory are even worse. DVC themselves are the culprit for lack of inventory.

I find myself vehemently disagreeing with this whole line of thought.

 

[Cyberc1978]

I find myself vehemently disagreeing with this whole line of thought.

I guess if you dislike spec renting you would.

However that does not change the fact that most of the reservations in this particular situation would be booked without walking. You would have the same opportunity to book them as I would have.

And you believe that DVC is not the cause of lack of inventory? They take out 14 million points worth of inventory.

While no one except DVC knows but I don’t think all renters combined take out inventory worth nearly as much, very far from it.

 

[Cyberc1978]

So, if the average points being exchanged is 20%c then that is what gets taken.

That’s why I do not consider that as DVc commercial renting because really, all they are doing is renting the cash room for the owner to use their DVC as intended…which is stay at DVC resorts or exchange out.

Why does it matter how DVC obtained the points?

If I’m gifted points or being paid with points for other services, and I rent them for cash, then DVC would still have the option to label me as a commercial renter.

I know it’s semantics as DVC are allowed to rent commercially or not.

 

[mkatsy]

I tend to somewhat agree that renters want to maximize their return. However the member renting single nights here or there are just trying to recoup some of their costs and I don’t think they create any imbalance.

I know that some believes that DVC allows certain things and to certain things for the good of the members - but if they really did that, I think they would define what commercial renting was. Members want to stay on DVC’s good side, they don’t necessarily want to break the rules.

I know coming out with a hard definition of commercial renting would make some members find ways to circumvent the definition - but if DVC was doing it for the sake of the members I would think they could find solutions to those edge cases too. Instead they hope the vague definition will scare members from renting - if it will for some.

As it happens to be, DVC are not, at least not primarily, doing anything for the sake of the members - I wish they were. They look at their wallet and then they maybe look at the members before making any decision.

Another opinion:
It seems that DVC have taken some action against renters which they believe are renting commercially. IF that’s the case, and that’s a big IF, why are we still seeing a broker selling or renting thousands of reservations? If anyone would meet the definition of commercial renting it would be them. They rent almost every single night in hard to get rooms, during all the high demand times including all nights during the low cost seasons. If DVC really wanted to make a difference for the sake of the members why not start here?

It’s hard to take the idea that DVC has taken any action against commercial renting seriously, when there are still individuals purchasing hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of properties regularly in their LLC’s. It’s not possible for a family to use that many points themselves a Disney representative signs off on the ROFER, and a Disney attorney signs off on the auction purchase. Kind of hard to claim ignorance of the situation at that point.

 

[Cyberc1978]

It’s hard to take the idea that DVC has taken any action against commercial renting seriously, when there are still individuals purchasing hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of properties regularly in their LLC’s. It’s not possible for a family to use that many points themselves a Disney representative signs off on the ROFER, and a Disney attorney signs off on the auction purchase. Kind of hard to claim ignorance of the situation at that point.

I agree. If anyone would break the rules about renting it would be the LLC’ - they aren’t allowed to rent, not even 1 reservation.

Or maybe DVC have decided to go after the “little guy” owning maybe 500, 1,000 or 2,000 points as that was easier than going after a LLC

 

[Sandisw]

Why does it matter how DVC obtained the points?

If I’m gifted points or being paid with points for other services, and I rent them for cash, then DVC would still have the option to label me as a commercial renter.

I know it’s semantics as DVC are allowed to rent commercially or not.

Because in this case, exchanges are part of the program.

And DVC is simply renting the room FOR the owner, not for themselves.

So, to me, that does not fit even into a discussion about commercial renting.

The point being is that you are subscribing the rental to DVC and not to the owner.

 

[Sandisw]

It’s hard to take the idea that DVC has taken any action against commercial renting seriously, when there are still individuals purchasing hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of properties regularly in their LLC’s. It’s not possible for a family to use that many points themselves a Disney representative signs off on the ROFER, and a Disney attorney signs off on the auction purchase. Kind of hard to claim ignorance of the situation at that point.

Just remember though, one can own or be attached to 8000 points. Thst is a lot of points.

So, it’s not the owning that is the issue. It’s what is happening on those memberships that are LLC owned that should trigger review and enforcement.

Now, if they are allowing the same LLCs to own more than 8000, then they are choosing to ignore that part of the contract.

And, if they are allowing LLCs to have reservations that don’t match the guests who are allowed to use those…employees, board members, executives, etc…..then they are choosing to ignore that.

But, when they say they are monitoring and enforcing, it’s simply never going to be easy to validate that.

Right now, we know they have kept the commercial purpose clause the same.

All we can do it keep an eye out for any updates in the future.

 

[Tatebeck]

Because in this case, exchanges are part of the program.

And DVC is simply renting the room FOR the owner, not for themselves.

So, to me, that does not fit even into a discussion about commercial renting.

The point being is that you are subscribing the rental to DVC and not to the owner.

Are you saying that DVC treats points they get from trades differently than the points that they still own themselves when they rent them out? I have never heard that before, because I wouldn't think that they treat them any differently.

Example: So If I traded a bunch of points to DVC for a cruise with a cash value of $3000, is DVC booking rooms and renting those points out just to get exactly $3000 back to send to the cruise department? Or are they renting them out for the most money that they can?

I would most likely assume that they are trying for the most income return that they can get, so I would still IMO consider any points DVC is renting out as commercial rentals, even though I know that they are allowed to do that according to the rules.

Unless you have knowledge that they are not trying to maximize the return on the rentals from those traded points of course.

 

[pzw90]

Just remember though, one can own or be attached to 8000 points. Thst is a lot of points.

So, it’s not the owning that is the issue. It’s what is happening on those memberships that are LLC owned that should trigger review and enforcement.

Now, if they are allowing the same LLCs to own more than 8000, then they are choosing to ignore that part of the contract.

And, if they are allowing LLCs to have reservations that don’t match the guests who are allowed to use those…employees, board members, executives, etc…..then they are choosing to ignore that.

But, when they say they are monitoring and enforcing, it’s simply never going to be easy to validate that.

Right now, we know they have kept the commercial purpose clause the same.

All we can do it keep an eye out for any updates in the future.

Went through a fun exercise earlier in the year looking at the comptroller site, simply looking for grantee having LLC and legal remarks having a variation of the different resorts. There are several four letter LLCs getting contracts, if you dig a bit deeper (look at affidavit docs) you realize the four letter acronyms are the initials of different officers (and probably spouses) from the various arms of the board sponsor. Just a way for them to amass points and not go over the restrictions, mind you they also end up selling some of them but its not 1:1, which leads to me believe they are renting some but I have no proof

 

[mkatsy]

Went through a fun exercise earlier in the year looking at the comptroller site, simply looking for grantee having LLC and legal remarks having a variation of the different resorts. There are several four letter LLCs getting contracts, if you dig a bit deeper (look at affidavit docs) you realize the four letter acronyms are the initials of different officers (and probably spouses) from the various arms of the board sponsor. Just a way for them to amass points and not go over the restrictions, mind you they also end up selling some of them but its not 1:1, which leads to me believe they are renting some but I have no proof

Toggle for “deeds” only: then select “grantee” [buying] and look at the transaction total at the top of the page. Then select “grantor” [selling] and look at the transaction total at the top of the page. This is a rough estimate of the historical activity on the account since it was opened. Obviously you don’t know the actual point total of each transaction without opening each document. Randomly choose five contracts and follow that contract (using the doc #) taking note of how long that contract was held, and the delta between the purchase and sale prices. the story tells itself … it always does.

 

[Sandisw]

Are you saying that DVC treats points they get from trades differently than the points that they still own themselves when they rent them out? I have never heard that before, because I wouldn't think that they treat them any differently.

Example: So If I traded a bunch of points to DVC for a cruise with a cash value of $3000, is DVC booking rooms and renting those points out just to get exactly $3000 back to send to the cruise department? Or are they renting them out for the most money that they can?

I would most likely assume that they are trying for the most income return that they can get, so I would still IMO consider any points DVC is renting out as commercial rentals, even though I know that they are allowed to do that according to the rules.

Unless you have knowledge that they are not trying to maximize the return on the rentals from those traded points of course.

No, they don’t treat them differently, but they take the room equivalent and rent it.

The price they get is determined by the cash rates. If there are promotions, they would apply to those rooms.

So, DVC doesn’t have a say in what the rate it’s. It is determined by its cash equivalent through the hotel division.

And, they can’t take less inventory either…because then you’d have an imbalance of points to rooms.

I look at it as no different than an owner using points to book a DVC room…they are booking it and then giving it for the trade.

That’s why I think it’s misleading to simply say it’s DVC commercial renting when it is based on owners using their points in the program.

It’s completely dependent on owners…DVC doesn’t have control of how many rooms will go to cash for rent.

If people see it as an issue, then what’s the solution? Not allowing owners to trade?

That is my point. These exchanges happen when owners use their memberships as intended and it shouldn’t be lumped into this situation.

This isn’t a matter of DVC getting to rent under different rules…this is owners doing it and why I see it as different.

Plus, the price of trades, especially cruises goes up regularly…the points do not so, the cash equivalent changes…which means it all dependent on when the trade happens.

The cruise I have booked for cash is now $500 more than when I booked it but the points are still the same…

Room rates do not use dynamic pricing the way that cruise rates do.

ETA: DVCMC may earn revenue from them and it’s a benefit to them to have more trade options for owners…just like the more points that go unused by owners the more breakage income DVCMC gets.

I just don’t see it being part of this particler discussion other than the fact that a lot of rooms leave the program for reasons other than indivual owners who may be renting in large numbers.

ETA2: DVC also has no controll over whether a room rents or not…so, there is always a possibility that a room that was taken for an exchange never gets booked…if that happens, my guess is DVC has to cover the cost of the exchange.

 

[Sandisw]

Went through a fun exercise earlier in the year looking at the comptroller site, simply looking for grantee having LLC and legal remarks having a variation of the different resorts. There are several four letter LLCs getting contracts, if you dig a bit deeper (look at affidavit docs) you realize the four letter acronyms are the initials of different officers (and probably spouses) from the various arms of the board sponsor. Just a way for them to amass points and not go over the restrictions, mind you they also end up selling some of them but its not 1:1, which leads to me believe they are renting some but I have no proof

Not saying that there are not LLCs out there and ones owned by the same LLCs.

And, I know that they buy and sell. It was more that it’s not as easy to figure out if they are truly violating the rules in terms of how many points they own at one time….

Now, we do know that the contract does say that an LLC is only supposed to let certain people use their points and we have reports from some who have said they rented from an LLC….

Those that are really concerned with that should be asking DVCMC to explain.

There was a rumor a few months back that said that they were not allowing contracts to be bought in names of LLC…but never heard more.

 

[mkatsy]

And, I know that they buy and sell. It was more that it’s not as easy to figure out if they are truly violating the rules in terms of how many points they own at one time

Exactly, it is incredibly time consuming. You would have to open each transaction’s documentation and scroll to the bottom of the deed to find the point total. If it’s an auction deed the points aren’t even on there. You would have to go back to the original deed that was foreclosed on. No way am I wasting my time on that. It will have to remain a mystery.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Because in this case, exchanges are part of the program.

And DVC is simply renting the room FOR the owner, not for themselves.

So, to me, that does not fit even into a discussion about commercial renting.

The point being is that you are subscribing the rental to DVC and not to the owner.

I dont agree that they do it FOR the owner. If they did, then any net proceeds would go back to the owner, instead DVC pockets all proceeds.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Are you saying that DVC treats points they get from trades differently than the points that they still own themselves when they rent them out? I have never heard that before, because I wouldn't think that they treat them any differently.

Example: So If I traded a bunch of points to DVC for a cruise with a cash value of $3000, is DVC booking rooms and renting those points out just to get exactly $3000 back to send to the cruise department? Or are they renting them out for the most money that they can?

I would most likely assume that they are trying for the most income return that they can get, so I would still IMO consider any points DVC is renting out as commercial rentals, even though I know that they are allowed to do that according to the rules.

Unless you have knowledge that they are not trying to maximize the return on the rentals from those traded points of course.

DVC would rent of any points they get for trades for as much as they can. However since they get 14 million points from trades thats a lot of rooms to rent. Therefore they most likely also sell the same points as otup for members

 

[airjay75]

Just another thought. I know resort view studios are generally the easiest to rent out for DVC owners. But, most potential renters of DVC are already looking for a bargain over Disney rack rates, and they aren't going to want to invest as much money given the refund policies. I have to think it is not quite as true for the average Disney potential rack rate customer. If you're already in the market to pay rack rates at a deluxe WDW resort, it may not be all that much more to pay rack rates for a 1/2/3 BR villa.

Just pulling up some Grand Floridian rates for a random week in September 2027 where there is widespread availability across all room categories. The rack rate for a basic hotel room ranges from $745 to $1,282 (club). On the DVC side, you've got deluxe studios going for $750-$787, 1 BRs at $1,072, 2 BRs at $1,743-$1,921, and 3 BRs at $3,371. If you were a small family considering club level, why not go for the 1 BR instead? Or if you were a large/multiple families considering 2 or 3 hotel rooms, why not bump that up to a 2 BR or 3 BR? And, if you change your mind, you can just cancel your reservation with no penalty. Presumably, you're already a customer with a high amount of disposable income, and you may well have no idea what DVC is.

I guess what I'm thinking is that the incentives for what rooms Disney takes to rent out are likely quite different than the incentives that exist in the DVC rental market for individual owners. Now, we still have no idea how this interplays with things like spec renting and what would or would not improve availability for individual DVC owners, but it is all part of the puzzle.

 

[Brianstl]

No…other than that they are monitoring accounts and have indeed enforced against owners.

They also are not surprised…and I am not either…that these owners would not be sharing it on social media anywhere they got caught.

Basically, owners who have a lot of reservations, in the names of others, that are overlapping all the time and it’s a constant and regular occurrence, may find themselves needing to explain things.

But, it’s not really about one specific thing its about the patterns they see when reviewing an owner’s account or accounts

Personally, I am happy that they are currently continuing this approach and making decisions at the owner level.

Who knows what decisions they will make in the future. but I did tell them I appreciated the approach they are taking with this and any other changes to the program.

I really have a hard time believing that any significant enforcement is actually going on to this point. I can understand the incentive for any owner that got busted to not run to social media with the story, but that doesn't explain the fact that there hasn't been one person who rented a villa from a commercial renter and had that rental canceled who has shared their story on social media. If there was real enforcement going on we would be seeing those stories pop up.

 

[VGCgroupie]

Just another thought. I know resort view studios are generally the easiest to rent out for DVC owners. But, most potential renters of DVC are already looking for a bargain over Disney rack rates, and they aren't going to want to invest as much money given the refund policies. I have to think it is not quite as true for the average Disney potential rack rate customer. If you're already in the market to pay rack rates at a deluxe WDW resort, it may not be all that much more to pay rack rates for a 1/2/3 BR villa.

Just pulling up some Grand Floridian rates for a random week in September 2027 where there is widespread availability across all room categories. The rack rate for a basic hotel room ranges from $745 to $1,282 (club). On the DVC side, you've got deluxe studios going for $750-$787, 1 BRs at $1,072, 2 BRs at $1,743-$1,921, and 3 BRs at $3,371. If you were a small family considering club level, why not go for the 1 BR instead? Or if you were a large/multiple families considering 2 or 3 hotel rooms, why not bump that up to a 2 BR or 3 BR? And, if you change your mind, you can just cancel your reservation with no penalty. Presumably, you're already a customer with a high amount of disposable income, and you may well have no idea what DVC is.

I guess what I'm thinking is that the incentives for what rooms Disney takes to rent out are likely quite different than the incentives that exist in the DVC rental market for individual owners. Now, we still have no idea how this interplays with things like spec renting and what would or would not improve availability for individual DVC owners, but it is all part of the puzzle.

Agree. I only explored renting for 1 beds or larger. Otherwise POP was perfectly fine also had no issue with an AOA family suite.