2021 Point Reallocation

[drusba]

Got it. I was only curious because dvcrequest.com must have used the original charts (as you suggested). Which is where I used to get the quick calculations done yesterday. Then when I looked this morning to do it myself DVC must have already corrected the error, so I noticed the discrepancy.

Of course, that now raises an interesting question. Did DVC do the correction based purely on internal discovery or has someone from DVC been following these boards, resulting in the correction, i.e., has someone at DVC been assigned to follow the boards to see how members are reacting to the new charts.

 

[mustinjourney]

Of course, that now raises an interesting question. Did DVC do the correction based purely on internal discovery or has someone from DVC been following these boards, resulting in the correction, i.e., has someone at DVC been assigned to follow the boards to see how members are reacting to the new charts.

someone mentioned that the lower point chart is more in line with the declared number of points.

Is it possible that the discrepancy is b/c 2020 might have had a higher number of weekends in higher point seasons? I know there is a bout 5000 points associated with just having leap year...so one day caused about 14% of the increase. Or is the "base year" supposed to be calculated using the highest possible point scenario?

 

[sethschroeder]

I cannot borrow 2022 points and have 2 weeks in 2021. I’ll need to use one time use points, rent points, or shorten the trip, and that’s frustrating if understandable.

Completely understandable it does change things a little bit. Possibly you can find someone who you can purchase a few transfer points from. it won't have the shortcoming of the 7 month booking for the one time use points and possibly are even a touch cheaper.

I would get ready for possibly even further impact as well. Who knows possibly some dates actually get cheaper next year for you?

must say I was a little shocked with all the "hate" (using that term somewhat hyperbolically) thrown at VGF by the group in the last episode. Seems like Pete was letting his bad experience at the hotel side negatively color his views of the DVC side.

I will rewatch as I didn't get that. The hate was typically outlined as "hotel specific" and they even called out how its great to have Concierge level CMs checking you in on the Villa side. (I love a good Pete rant)

 

[drusba]

someone mentioned that the lower point chart is more in line with the declared number of points.

Is it possible that the discrepancy is b/c 2020 might have had a higher number of weekends in higher point seasons? I know there is a bout 5000 points associated with just having leap year...so one day caused about 14% of the increase. Or is the "base year" supposed to be calculated using the highest possible point scenario?

I assume you are referring to VGC. I cannot see it as being an issue caused by the 2020 point chart overstating points or being leap year, e.g., point charts do not change just because it is a leap year. What you see as the 2020 point chart is the same point chart that has existed at VGC for almost a decade. What we are seeing for 2021 is a major change from all of VGC's past history.

 

[Chuck S]

I usually go twice per year to OKW. One of my travel times is a few points less, the other a few points more. I can live with the changes.

 

[skier_pete]

must say I was a little shocked with all the "hate" (using that term somewhat hyperbolically) thrown at VGF by the group in the last episode. Seems like Pete was letting his bad experience at the hotel side negatively color his views of the DVC side.

Yes, I do agree that was the case. I think overall we were mostly positive, but I think overall most of us don't love the GF (except definitely Jackie does) and the high price of staying there (even with DVC that being "high points") didn't leave it as our favorite - I think we had a lot of pros though too.

 

[DougEMG]

Looking at my trip this Nov and comparing it to what it will be next Nov, the points for my BLT studio went up 6% while the points for my BWV studio went up 15%. Bummer.

 

[mustinjourney]

Yes, I do agree that was the case. I think overall we were mostly positive, but I think overall most of us don't love the GF (except definitely Jackie does) and the high price of staying there (even with DVC that being "high points") didn't leave it as our favorite - I think we had a lot of pros though too.

if I were a guest speaker on that episode, I would have said, "Cons? None. If you say otherwise, you're wrong. Let's move on."

 

[mustinjourney]

I assume you are referring to VGC. I cannot see it as being an issue caused by the 2020 point chart overstating points or being leap year, e.g., point charts do not change just because it is a leap year. What you see as the 2020 point chart is the same point chart that has existed at VGC for almost a decade. What we are seeing for 2021 is a major change from all of VGC's past history.

yes -- I was referring to VGC.

regarding point charts -- I was referring to what people were describing as the total number of points to book all of the rooms for a given year. 2020 was about 36000 more points vs 2021. 5000 of those points are attributable to having an extra day that is a saturday in a point heavy season.

Regarding the other 30000 points, I was wondering if it was possible that 2020 might have had more weekends fall within a heavier point season. But I'm guessing that isn't the case.

 

[Sandisw]

Working for a school system and having to take vacation on their schedule, our future trip jumped up nearly 100 points with the new adjustments. Guess for now we'll do the bank and borrow that we were lucky to avoid, so far anyway. Not happy, but I get why they're doing it. Maybe we'll benefit more when we retire.

I just retired from teaching and it was so nice planning all my trips starting with this school year at times that were lower than summer! So, you’ll get there soon!

 

[Sandisw]

But if that is true, shouldn't they revert the changes to:
- THV
- SSR Standard and preferred
- view reclassifications at AKV and BLT
Or are they just going to hope no one questions it? If they did make a mistake in those reallocations, could someone claim damage (because for example they used more points to book a room because of the reallocation)?

I think the language is a little different now, My RIV state the points for vacation homes can go up or down, but the overall unit has to remain the same. When I look at the drawings of RIV, the units consist of more than one room..print too small for me to tell you exaclty what rooms are part of each unit,

I can’t speak for THV, because those were added later so I can’t see how they can be part of any unit containing the other building at SSR. But I am not sure how creating categories at SSR would be a problem, unless each section is considered their own units.

 

[crvetter]

yes -- I was referring to VGC.

regarding point charts -- I was referring to what people were describing as the total number of points to book all of the rooms for a given year. 2020 was about 36000 more points vs 2021. 5000 of those points are attributable to having an extra day that is a saturday in a point heavy season.

Regarding the other 30000 points, I was wondering if it was possible that 2020 might have had more weekends fall within a heavier point season. But I'm guessing that isn't the case.

I would agree to that. However, if you look at the point charts in raw form you will see that they across the board reduced points in most seasons in all room types. Also the percentage deviation is too high to account for the maximum number of Fridays and Saturdays. It seems to have been a deliberate move to lower the points. Since each chart is created under the same base year (to determine if the one per one use right is violated) also suggests another reason for the lower costs.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

, i.e., has someone at DVC been assigned to follow the boards to see how members are reacting to the new charts.

That has been going on for a long time.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I think the language is a little different now, My RIV state the points for vacation homes can go up or down, but the overall unit has to remain the same. When I look at the drawings of RIV, the units consist of more than one room..print too small for me to tell you exaclty what rooms are part of each unit,

I can’t speak for THV, because those were added later so I can’t see how they can be part of any unit containing the other building at SSR. But I am not sure how creating categories at SSR would be a problem, unless each section is considered their own units.

At SSR the units I've looked at were contained within buildings so yes, the sections in total would have contained their own units. I'm not certain how Riviera is being declared so maybe it's an exception but in any other resort that I've looked at the units declared are quite varied. Because of that the only way to guarantee that the overall unit remains the same is to also keep the point totals the same within the units. An odd exception here and there might be GV's but I think many of them were declared as part of units with other room sizes too.

So, while the language for Riviera may indicate the vacation homes can change it still may not be allowable unless the units are all identical.

 

[crvetter]

That has been going on for a long time.

Yes I was told specifically they do (It’s not something they probably care to hide since it’s not underhanded), and seems wise that they would to be honest. As someone else said it’s a free focus group. I was told the entire parks segment of Disney follows their own relevant parts of the board.

 

[kbrazieltx]

I am a numbers junkie so I am just getting started on my evaluation of the 2021 Point Changes. What I have found so far is the points balancing appears to be according to POS terms. We bought enough points in 2018 for 5-6 days in a 2 bedroom during the Adventure or Choice Seasons. With the changes we will have to spend 5-10 points more per trip so looks not to be a big problem except we used our extra points from our Direct Purchase at CCV in 2018 and stayed 3 days in a GV. We liked it so much we have decided to add-on to be able to stay in a GV every other year with extended family and friends. This is where the problem is for us. Some mention 2 and 3 Bedrooms requiring lower points in 2021 but that is not true based on our travel habits. To travel in late September and the first part of December (2021 Season 2) like we love to do for Halloween and Christmas it will cost us 35-40 points more per trip in a GV. If we chose to move our trips to May where it cost less vs 2020 this actually cost us more due to the fall dates we originally chose our use year for in 2018. So with a lot more to evaluate my first conclusion is DVC has raised prices in the fall that makes total sense but do not think it was the get the seasons in check to the crowds. It's being done to make more money selling additional points. They are in business to make more money and these changes will do exactly that.

 

[Sandisw]

At SSR the units I've looked at were contained within buildings so yes, the sections in total would have contained their own units. I'm not certain how Riviera is being declared so maybe it's an exception but in any other resort that I've looked at the units declared are quite varied. Because of that the only way to guarantee that the overall unit remains the same is to also keep the point totals the same within the units. An odd exception here and there might be GV's but I think many of them were declared as part of units with other room sizes too.

So, while the language for Riviera may indicate the vacation homes can change it still may not be allowable unless the units are all identical.

It looks like to me that the divided the floors into different # of units. For example, it says Sixth floor consists of 2 units. 3A, 3B but then the picture shows that those two units consist of all types of room sizes.

Now, for seventh floor show 5 units, 2A - 2E, consisting of all room types. Yet, 5th floor shows 14 units...1A - 1L But I cant find anything about the other floors,

So, honestly , I don’t know if I understand this at all...or these units are not the same as the units they are talking about in the multisite POS about vacation home and units.

Thanks for clarifying SSR...if each section are comprised of their own units, then it does seem they took some liberties in creating those different sections.

 

[mathgeek]

I'm going to go with the easiest explanation: someone made a mistake when copying and pasting and they'll rectify it soon.

Not sure what you are referring to as charts at DVCrequest.com. The Vero Beach charts I got were in the Notifcations section of the DVC website. I got them very quickly after it appeared. I look now and the chart for VB has changed. The initial chart that was there had apparently reversed the nightly points for studios and Ocean View Inn rooms; the new chart reverses that apparent error. In other words, DVC has corrected it since releasing the initial notice and yes it appears to no longer have an issue. Possibly DVC Request simply had the first one put out by DVC.

Of course, that now raises an interesting question. Did DVC do the correction based purely on internal discovery or has someone from DVC been following these boards, resulting in the correction, i.e., has someone at DVC been assigned to follow the boards to see how members are reacting to the new charts.

Well, I, for one, am happy they discovered the error to the VB charts between the studio and OVIR categories and corrected it so promptly, no matter how or why it happened!

 

[zavandor]

At SSR the units I've looked at were contained within buildings so yes, the sections in total would have contained their own units. I'm not certain how Riviera is being declared so maybe it's an exception but in any other resort that I've looked at the units declared are quite varied. Because of that the only way to guarantee that the overall unit remains the same is to also keep the point totals the same within the units. An odd exception here and there might be GV's but I think many of them were declared as part of units with other room sizes too.

So, while the language for Riviera may indicate the vacation homes can change it still may not be allowable unless the units are all identical.

You're right, but if the constraint were just the units, there is the chance they could have some wiggle room. For example I've read (not sure about that) that OKW units are the whole buildings. Haven't all buildings the same floor plan?

Anyway, in my opinion, it's academic, because regardless of what the POS say, Florida law wins. And the Florida law says that the one-to-one rule is valid at "timeshare unit" level. A "timeshare unit" for the Florida law is a lockable dwelling that is separately conveyed. In a resort like VGF that only has lockoff studios, they have sold guaranteed weeks for studios, so they have conveyed lockoff studios, hence they are, without a doubt, "timeshare units" for the Florida law, so they cannot reallocate across them. But I would argue that since lockoff studios are bookable on points and point charts are published for them, for a point timeshare this means the lockoff studios have been conveyed as well, also in a resort like SSR which didn't sell guaranteed weeks but has always provided a way to book studios (as there are no dedicated studios).

The issue here is: has DVC renounced to reallocate across unit types this year just because of the bad feedback?
Or have they renounced it because they realised we could have a point that it's illegal? Because it it's the latter, then there's the big issues of the three reallocations they've already done (SSR THV, BLT and AKV view adjusting, AKV Value and Concierge rebalance), what to do with them? I guess the strategy here is "let's not speak about past reallocations across units and hope no one questions them".

 

[Sandisw]

You're right, but if the constraint were just the units, there is the chance they could have some wiggle room. For example I've read (not sure about that) that OKW units are the whole buildings. Haven't all buildings the same floor plan?

Anyway, in my opinion, it's academic, because regardless of what the POS say, Florida law wins. And the Florida law says that the one-to-one rule is valid at "timeshare unit" level. A "timeshare unit" for the Florida law is a lockable dwelling that is separately conveyed. In a resort like VGF that only has lockoff studios, they have sold guaranteed weeks for studios, so they have conveyed lockoff studios, hence they are, without a doubt, "timeshare units" for the Florida law, so they cannot reallocate across them. But I would argue that since lockoff studios are bookable on points and point charts are published for them, for a point timeshare this means the lockoff studios have been conveyed as well, also in a resort like SSR which didn't sell guaranteed weeks but has always provided a way to book studios (as there are no dedicated studios).

The issue here is: has DVC renounced to reallocate across unit types this year just because of the bad feedback?
Or have they renounced it because they realised we could have a point that it's illegal? Because it it's the latter, then there's the big issues of the three reallocations they've already done (SSR THV, BLT and AKV view adjusting), what to do with them? I guess the strategy here is "let's not speak about past reallocations across units and hope no one questions them".

Next question! Do you know then if Florida timeshare law deals with the lock off premium? Since DVC says that can be done, does that language match?