2021 Point Reallocation

[kboo]

Well, way back when the points charts were first created, park attendance and Disney resort occupancy really were low during those first two weeks of December. The parks were almost empty - it was a wonderful time to come!

I remember a time pre-kids and pre-DVC - about 15 years ago when DH and I went to WDW for a long weekend in early December. There were some Christmas decorations up (though not to the degree they are now), and the parks were SO empty. It was kind of glorious to take off from NYC in a snowstorm and spend a few days in Florida.

my kids get out of school right around memorial day -- so I could see going just after that before the points hit summer rates.

My kids are in school until the end of June, but they don't start up until after Labor Day, so I guess we'll be shifting to more late summer vacations. Also we have snuck in some fall long weekends because of the Jewish holidays - that might also come into play in the future.

Our Xmas/NY trip in 2021 would cost a total of 9 points more than it's costing us in 2019. That's a negligible difference given how many points it costs at that time of year.

 

[CarolynFH]

Agreed. But how often have we seen new potential owners warned that “DVC busy season is not regular busy season?”

Or “If you plan to travel during mid September to mid January you need to book at home at 11-months.”

Then there’s the multi-layered warning: “even SSR may become unavailable at 7-months during Fall Frenzy.”

How cute, we even came up with a name for it.

I’m no Disney apologist/cheerleader, but in this instance, I do think there is something to be celebrated that DVCMC seems to actually be looking very specifically at member usage separate from what mother-ship park/bottom-line needs may be in determining what changes best serves the greater membership.

Oh, I most definitely agree with you. I just wanted to point out that originally the low points cost weeks coordinated with low attendance weeks. It's just that it's taken DVC many years to do the right thing and reallocate, now that attendance patterns have changed.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

Now I wonder what they are going to do with any new Riviera fixed week contract calculations? I don't see how they could have the same table now as they previously did with such huge differences. As you mention your premium has disappeared and I'm sure there's several times of the year that would be true. And it's probably increased a lot for other times. Will they change the purchase requirements on any fixed week sales going forward?

Wondering this as well. My CCV FW 49 looks like a steal at this point. If they adjust December next year I will have hit the lottery.

 

[anomamatt]

Wondering this as well. My CCV FW 49 looks like a steal at this point. If they adjust December next year I will have hit the lottery.

I really don't need more Riviera points and I already have one guaranteed week, but I'm considering calling next week to see if week 52 is still 196 points in a standard-view studio (as listed on dvcexplorer). (2021 cost is 211 points for that week).

 

[CarolynFH]

I really don't need more Riviera points and I already have one guaranteed week, but I'm considering calling next week to see if week 52 is still 196 points in a standard-view studio (as listed on dvcexplorer). (2021 cost is 211 points for that week).

Why not call and settle that question? Calling won’t commit you to buy, right?

 

[Sandisw]

I really don't need more Riviera points and I already have one guaranteed week, but I'm considering calling next week to see if week 52 is still 196 points in a standard-view studio (as listed on dvcexplorer). (2021 cost is 211 points for that week).

That would be interesting! Like I posted earlier, I wonder if they won’t be able to charge the points listed on the 2021 charts until 2021 since people buying today, can still take a trip in 2020 using the current amount.

I can not imagine how they would sell it to someone that they have to not only pay the 10% premium, but have to buy a fixed week at 2021
prices, even though thats not it’s real cost in 2020.

 

[mathgeek]

Vero Beach has studios going up year round by a significant amount while Ocean View Inn rooms decrease year round and standard view inn rooms stay the same for two seasons and decrease the others. Once again DVC apparently is carrying out its position from last year that it can shift points from one type of room to another.

I was honestly hoping that they put the wrong column of points under the studio and OVIR headings for VB.

 

[anomamatt]

Why not call and settle that question? Calling won’t commit you to buy, right?

Yep. I would call now, but I'm traveling for work until next week. That's why I'll call next week.

 

[anomamatt]

That would be interesting! Like I posted earlier, I wonder if they won’t be able to charge the points listed on the 2021 charts until 2021 since people buying today, can still take a trip in 2020 using the current amount.

I can not imagine how they would sell it to someone that they have to not only pay the 10% premium, but have to buy a fixed week at 2021
prices, even though thats not it’s real cost in 2020.

I assume you are correct. I know guaranteed weeks are not popular, so maybe they just don't worry about it? But it's going to eat somewhat (even a very small somewhat) into their 2% of points DVC keeps. And given that most fixed weeks sold are in the last 6 weeks of the year, the issue will be exaggerated. But, we are still talking about very few contracts.

And on the flip side, it could be possible to way overpay (in 2021 points) for weeks like #12... 196 point cost for the GW, but 2021 chart would put the cost @ 176 points with the 10% premium (160 * 1.1 = 176). Ouch.

 

[Sandisw]

I assume you are correct. I know guaranteed weeks are not popular, so maybe they just don't worry about it? But it's going to eat somewhat (even a very small somewhat) into their 2% of points DVC keeps. And given that most fixed weeks sold are in the last 6 weeks of the year, the issue will be exaggerated. But, we are still talking about very few contracts.

And on the flip side, it could be possible to way overpay (in 2021 points) for weeks like #12... 196 point cost for the GW, but 2021 chart would put the cost @ 176 points with the 10% premium (160 * 1.1 = 176). Ouch.

Very true. Maybe they are hoping it will even out some? I wonder how many GW sold for weeks other than the end of the year are now less points than what was sold?

 

[anomamatt]

Very true. Maybe they are hoping it will even out some? I wonder how many GW sold for weeks other than the end of the year are now less points than what was sold?

I also wonder how many guaranteed weeks are used as actual guaranteed weeks... If only DVC would give us access to their data, haha. I'm guessing we will use our Riviera GW only ~50% of the years (The GW was mostly a hedge for resale and the 2020 chart fiasco also had me frightened and I wanted some kind of fallback). I'm guessing it's not that uncommon to use the points (versus the week) and this will also make it less of a pain for DVC if some GWs get a "deal".

 

[Cyberc1978]

Vero Beach has studios going up year round by a significant amount while Ocean View Inn rooms decrease year round and standard view inn rooms stay the same for two seasons and decrease the others. Once again DVC apparently is carrying out its position from last year that it can shift points from one type of room to another.

Any chance that they in the past have made a mistake with the point charts for VB and now are rectifying that ? - just seems odd that they would try and do the same as last year. Unless they hope to be able to sneak "one" through

 

[drusba]

Any chance that they in the past have made a mistake with the point charts for VB and now are rectifying that ? - just seems odd that they would try and do the same as last year. Unless they hope to be able to sneak "one" through

DVC knows what is doing and with Vero and VGC it is telling us that it is rejecting completely our arguments from last year about limitations to seasonal changes for the same rooms. In essence, don't be surprised if in future years it attempts to make the same type of changes again at the WDW resorts that it attempted with the 2020 point charts last year.

With VGC, DVC is shifting points to GVs from other-sized rooms year round. It is purely a room size point change and not a seasonal change. It makes no sense because there are only 2 GVs so it is ridiculous to think you can change "excess" demand for them by raising points when excess demand is defined simply by three different owners wanting them. Moreover, there has been no real issue at VGC involving skewed demand -- it has had the same point chart for years and VGC has developed no 11-month issue for any rooms and rooms in all sizes often disappear before 7 months out, i.e., I can think of no reason why DVC needed to change VGC at all except to broadcast its position that last year has done nothing to change its claim that it can just shift points from one room size to another whenever it feels like doing so.

What VGC also does is raise a serious issue as to whether DVC has offset decreases in points with an equal amount of increase since it appears clear that the total amount of point decreases for other rooms is greater than the increases for the GVs. Even DVC agreed last year, and the DVC Membership Agreements clearly provide, that any increase has to be set-off by an equal decrease and vice versa. However, who is going to complain about the 2021 VGC point chart, since everyone who gets studios, 1BRs or 2BRs is going to use fewer points year round.

I cannot tell if the VB change has offset any increases with the same amount of decreases, but it clearly is shifting points from one class of room to another year round and thus without any apparent "seasonal" purpose.

 

[crvetter]

With VGC, DVC is shifting points to GVs from other-sized rooms year round.

But they really aren’t. Actually the GV and 2 Bedrooms (the rooms that matter as without dedicated units for the 1 and studio those are free to move without limit) are both cheaper for 2021 compared to 2020 and more so than what would be explained by 2/29/20

Here is the full year for 2020:


Here is the full year for 2021:


As you can see a drop in points across the board. While I used dvcrequest.com for the calculations it matches what I did manually yesterday. Perhaps you misread the charts as each day (except a small few) the points went down for the GV between 2020 and 2021.

This only begs the question why is the total points required in 2021 so much less than the points required in 2020 to book the entire resort.

 

[drusba]

But they really aren’t. Actually the GV and 2 Bedrooms (the rooms that matter as without dedicated units for the 1 and studio those are free to move without limit) are both cheaper for 2021 compared to 2020 and more so than what would be explained by 2/29/20

Here is the full year for 2020:
View attachment 458269

Here is the full year for 2021:
View attachment 458270

As you can see a drop in points across the board. While I used dvcrequest.com for the calculations it matches what I did manually yesterday.

This only begs the question why is the total points required in 2021 so much less than the points required in 2020 to book the entire resort.

I question that you can leave out studio and 1BR changes in doing the analysis that would comply with the DVC Membership Agreement which expressly requires any decrease for any use day in a vacation home must be offset by a corresponding increase in another use day or days. If your analysis is correct that studios and 1BRs do not go into the equation at all, then at VB for 2021, we have only a decrease and no corresponding increase at all. The inn rooms have gone down, the studios have gone up, but there are no dedicated studios, all are part of 2BR lock-offs, and the points needed for 2BRs remain unchanged.

 

[Bing Showei]

I can think of no reason why DVC needed to change VGC at all except to broadcast its position that last year has done nothing to change its claim that it can just shift points from one room size to another whenever it feels like doing so.

Didn't that happen unequivocally in 2013 with THV?

This only begs the question why is the total points required in 2021 so much less than the points required in 2020 to book the entire resort.

What if it's a matter of building a multiyear precedence; a pattern of practice to which the membership has implicitly conceded is acceptable? In both cases, because the majority of "effected" users either benefit or are unaffected, not unlike the resale restrictions, there wasn't any pushback.

 

[crvetter]

I question that you can leave out studio and 1BR changes in doing the analysis that would comply with the DVC Membership Agreement which expressly requires any decrease for any use day in a vacation home must be offset by a corresponding increase in another use day or days. If your analysis is correct that studios and 1BRs do not go into the equation at all, then at VB for 2021, we have only a decrease and no corresponding increase at all. The inn rooms have gone down, the studios have gone up, but there are no dedicated studios, all are part of 2BR lock-offs, and the points needed for 2BRs remain unchanged.

I wasn’t discussing VB but your point directly on VGC where you stated GV increased to offset the decrease on 2 Bedrooms. There is no legal protections in the Studios and 1 Bedrooms there simply because they are apart of the lockoff 2 Bedrooms. So DVC is only tied by the 20% changes for the studio and 1 bedroom. But my point is each room (even the studio and 1 bedrooms) dropped in their point costs across the entire year for VGC. So nothing detrimental to the membership; however, something weird in that now there it takes less points to book the entire resort.

As for VB, which mu post made no reference to but a conclusion was drawn on, I do see the ocean view inn rooms swapped the point costs with the studios for the entire year. That is something I would need to look more into as I’m not as familiar with it yet. But I wasn’t asserting the studios and 1 bedrooms didn’t matter there.

 

[crvetter]

What if it's a matter of building a multiyear precedence; a pattern of practice to which the membership has implicitly conceded is acceptable? In both cases, because the majority of "effected" users either benefit or are unaffected, not unlike the resale restrictions, there wasn't any pushback.

Perhaps in this case we accepted them to lower the cost across all room types with no adjustments (again can only consider the 2 bedroom and GV, because there are no dedicated studios or 1 bedrooms). So for VGC we didn’t accept moving across room types, as asserted on here previously. I know there is some questions on VB but I haven’t looked too much into yet. Though I know my rights are limited to where I own thus I’m not accepting what they are doing with VB because I have no grounds to object to it. VB owners would be best to object (though perhaps the POS considers the inn rooms and studios apart of the same room type not sure until look more).

 

[drusba]

Didn't that happen unequivocally in 2013 with THV?

What if it's a matter of building a multiyear precedence; a pattern of practice to which the membership has implicitly conceded is acceptable? In both cases, because the majority of "effected" users either benefit or are unaffected, not unlike the resale restrictions, there wasn't any pushback.

Yes it happened with THV and with the SSR change to standard and preferred, neither of which I considered proper but I do not own there and was therefore in no position to raise the problem. I actually thought someone would sue over the THV issue because there was also a potential misrepresentation claim. DVD used the representation that you could get a 3BR THV for the same point cost as a 2BR as a selling point, and then soon after THV's were put in the sold-out category, DVC raised the points needed for THV's 15% year round. In any event, in my communications with DVC last year over the 2020 point charts, I mentioned to DVC that any legal challenge over the 2020 point chart changes could also assert the THV changes were improper.

As to DVC's building an argument that repeating the same misconduct several times over the years without legal challenge, such as with changes it made with THV and now VGC and VB, results in members not being able to challenge future changes, I am not overly concerned that is a DVC plan. In its drafting efforts to make sure the official documents did not stick DVC with prior repeated conduct, DVC included clauses that make clear that both DVC and the members do not, in any way, waive any future breaches of the terms in the documents by failure, at any time, to pursue prior breaches.

 

[Bing Showei]

Yes it happened with THV and with the SSR change to standard and preferred, neither of which I considered proper but I do not own there and was therefore in no position to raise the problem. I actually thought someone would sue over the THV issue because there was also a potential misrepresentation claim.

You seem to be choosing your words very carefully. Are you unconvinced that all of the marketing of "3BRs for the price of 2!" was false advertising, or that the balancing of points between vacation homes was in violation of POS terms? I am convinced that we didn't see a reversion to 2020 charts because while they were legally within their right to increase lockoff premiums to no end (they would just have to prove with data that it was justified and served the interest of the greater membership) things could've gotten really messy around the vacation home shifts, dragging in changes seen in the 2013 reallocation at SSR, maybe even BWV categories.

In its drafting efforts to make sure the official documents did not stick DVC with prior repeated conducted, DVC included clauses that make clear that both DVC and the members do not, in any way, waive any future breaches of the terms in the documents by failure, at any time, to pursue prior breaches.

So it reads that past indiscretions are not tacitly accepted by virtue of not pursuing legal recourse at the time. Oh that's good. I can retire that particular tinfoil hat then.