2008 DDP and DVC

[starbox]

Also, I read someones post who is concerned about the tip getting higher. You're not supposed to tip on alcohol and tax anyway, right? I actually do as it's easier for me to just glance the total add 10 % and double it (I'm a 20% tipper).

You are supposed to tip on alcohol, but if you are at Disney, they usually add 18% to alcohol purchases @ TS. The one exception to this, in my experience, has been at pool bars where a place to add tip is included on the tab, and once at AP where the server specifically told us that he had taken the 18% automatic gratuity out of the check - smart move, because he got 25% from me.

 

[JimMIA]

Disney will have to do something about it when they sell it. If I call for the DDP after they remove the tip and tax then they will have to tell me it is no longer included. Further, when we are seated for the first year or so they need to have a printed notice tastefully done that is placed on the cover of each menu or something at the tables where they reserverd their DDP.

From the rumors CMs have posted on the DDP board, I think this is exactly what is planned. They've been mentioning some kind of a "Tip card," saying the tip is not included and the tips for your meal would be: 15% = $X.xx, 18% = $X.xx, 20% = $X.xx.

 

[JimMIA]

I don't know but outside of the cost going up this doesn't seem to be such a big deal.

This is one of those questions, like a lot of questions, where the answer depends on where you sit. If you are a family with 4 kids under 10, you are probably doing very, very well with DDP and the loss of the gratuity would not be enough to make you question its worth to your family. And you'd be right.

Also, if you fly in and take DME, it is inconvenient to go offsite to eat.

OTOH, we are a family of 2A/1C, and for us, DDP is only a small savings to begin with. We also drive up from Miami, so going offsite is no big deal for us -- we run some errand offsite just about every day anyway. If DDP becomes a wash - which I think the loss of the gratuity would do for us - I have to choose between eating standardized menus on DDP or eating offsite at Columbia, Bonefish Grill, etc. and maybe saving a little money in the bargain. Or...doing a split stay: two days on one ressie with DDP, and three days on another unlinked ressie eating offsite.

Everybody's math is going to be different on DDP, depending on how you would normally dine without it and the composition of your group.

 

[JimMIA]

Since a lot of people don't bother to read the entire thread, I think it's important to reiterate a point that several posters made earlier in this thread.

The 2008 DDP has not been announced yet, and therefore, none of us actually know the details of the plan yet.

We are all offering opinions based on what we've heard. Some of what we've heard has come from sources who should be reliable...but we're still speculating nonetheless.

If you are planning a trip in January/February, I'd go ahead and make plans and ADRs as if you were using DDP. You can always cancel ADRs if you change your mind due to some change in DDP.

 

[lisaviolet]

I would absolutely love this. No issue paying OOP for tip on the DDP.

My novel:

In advance, this was one situation and one server. And I couldn't have imagined this if I hadn't experienced it. But I truly believe that the tip rolled into the DDP made it easier for the server to get away with it. I had an unbelievable night at the CG in the first year of the DDP. "Free Dining". I was so excited to go the CG with my mother. I had never been.

He started off so incredibly friendly. Once he heard we were DDP his expression changed instantly; demeanor, everything. He quietly snubbed us the entire night. It was such an uncomfortable evening. Very difficult to ignore. Unfortunately. This sounds very dramatic but it was on line with mind games on his part. Like it was a game. It wasn't a case of busy or overextended in this situation. Or either simply bad service. You really had to be there to catch the vibe and change.

You would try to merely catch his glance, or even with excuse me, when he was right there. And nothing. And we were right in front of the station. He would linger at some other tables (not that I wanted that ...just some service) suggest for tables to go to see the fireworks, hands on the shoulders. Casual prolonged conversation. Everything. Like Jekyl and Hyde. And yes I had plenty of time to notice since I wasn't getting any regular service. Another table that I know was on the DDP was very frustrated by their service. I could hear them. They were about to walk out waiting for their bill. Minimal curt interaction. No coffee/dessert questions. Nothing. But he was an intelligent man. Did the bare minimum making it very difficult to explain.

I have never in my life had an emotional experience in a restaurant. A restaurant? So weird. And I hope never to repeat it.

I obviously didn't leave it. Spoke to a manager. But very difficult to explain the subtleties of what went on.........

My mother and I didn't discuss it at all at dinner and after I talked to the manager she said, "I felt it the entire night. I had no idea you did too".

I know paying OOP for tips, in full...as some DDP diners tip OOP anyway, can't stop the few bad experiences. But it certainly makes the servers more accountable for it.

And yes I know that the absolute majority of WDW servers are extremely hard working and wonderful and not mind-playing expletives.

 

[starbox]

I have never in my life had an emotional experience in a restaurant. A restaurant? So weird. And I hope never to repeat it.

I obviously didn't leave it. Spoke to a manager. But very difficult to explain the subtleties of what went on.........

My mother and I didn't discuss it at all at dinner and after I talked to the manager she said, "I felt it the entire night. I had no idea you did too".

I know paying OOP for tips, in full...as some DDP diners tip OOP anyway, can't stop the few bad experiences. But it certainly makes the servers more accountable for it.
/QUOTE]

I've heard stories like this and I've been a DDP girl with consistently good service for years - so I was SHOCKED on my last trip when my worst two dinners in terms of service were the ones I specifically did not use the DDP on. I made sure to tell the servers up front that we were not on the plan, and can't for the life of me figure out why they did not make an effort. One server was so bad that I actually left less than 20%.

 

[HomerHog]

I have been looking at the numbers for our 2008 trip to decide which is best. We have done the dining plan in the past. We don't consider it a money saver, as you can eat for less in a day. We look at it as allowing us to try things and eat places that we would never pay for out of pocket for approximately the same amount as we spent on the last trip pre-DDP.

Looking at five of our days, we would eat fixed-price meals (Chef Mickey's, Boma, 'Ohana, Biergarten, 1900 Park Fare). I looked at paying for these meals out of pocket plus a $14 per day allowance for counter service and/or snack versus the DDP at its current cost plus 18% gratuity. The meal plan would still save an average of $6 per day.

The other meals will be at menu-order restaurants with varying prices. However, these tend to be the things that we wouldn't do otherwise (LeCellier, CRT, Coral Reef, etc.) While I would like for it to remain all-inclusive or for the DDP price to drop a few dollars to reflect the removal of gratuity, paying a little extra on the tip for a couple of unique experiences is not cost prohibitive at this point.

This has been a long way of saying that for what we could pay out-of-pocket for one low-mid TS plus a CS and snack each day, the DDP allows us to do some of those and some higher-end meals for roughly the same price.

 

[pilferk]

I'm about ready to make my reservations for dining for my Jan. '08 trip. Planning on doing the DDP. Does anyone know when the '08 prices/program will be released for the DDP?

Thanks

Last year it was around mid to late August...and even then the list of restaurants wasn't final.

I'd expect the same this year.

FYI, call and make those ressies anyway. They don't need to know you're on the DDP until you actually arrive at the restaurant to eat. They'd LIKE to, but they don't NEED to.

 

[pilferk]

There have been numerous posts on the DDP board by server CM's outlining the entire chain of events. And there have also been actual contract language quotes posted, so it's pretty clear what the outcome was. The exact final outcome was that the union agreed to the removal of the gratuity from DDP in return for adding an automatic 18% gratuity to all DDE checks and reducing the threshhold for automatic gratuities on larger parties from 8 to 6.

What is not clear is how Disney will implement the changes. The removal of the DDP gratuity language is worded basically as a trial program, with Disney holding the right to make it temporary or permanent. So they could remove the gratuity, and if that resulted in lower participation, they could put it back in. Or they could remove it only from Free DDP, for example.

The new contract takes effect on 1/1/2008, and that is probably the reason why the old contract is posted on the website. They still have half a year to go under the old contract, and it is that contract that governs all their activities for the rest of the year.

I wonder if there is a 3rd option here:

The tip amount starts to be at the DDP customer's discretion. With the current language, there was no leeway for the customer to have any input on the tip amount...it was 18%, period.

With the new language, promising nothing, could Disney now put in place a system where the customer is allowed to determine tip % UP TO, say, 18% or down to 0%? Or do you all think the implementation would be too unwieldy to do?

 

[starbox]

With the new language, promising nothing, could Disney now put in place a system where the customer is allowed to determine tip % UP TO, say, 18% or down to 0%? Or do you all think the implementation would be too unwieldy to do?

They could always just put a rating box - How was your server?
Poor/Average/Above Average/Exceptional and compensate waitstaff on a merit-basis.

 

[JimMIA]

I wonder if there is a 3rd option here:

The tip amount starts to be at the DDP customer's discretion. With the current language, there was no leeway for the customer to have any input on the tip amount...it was 18%, period.

With the new language, promising nothing, could Disney now put in place a system where the customer is allowed to determine tip % UP TO, say, 18% or down to 0%? Or do you all think the implementation would be too unwieldy to do?

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but my description was of the system as it is today, and was an effort to describe the difference in tips received by servers at Disney restaurants vs. non-Disney owned restaurants on the DDP.

Your proposal sounds like something for the future...designed to build in accountability for the servers, I guess???

If so, the rumored changes to DDP have nothing to do with service. If Disney goes through with things as rumored, it will be because it increases their bottom line $13.50 on a $75 meal in the example above -- not because of any effect on service. What once was gratuity now becomes pure profit unless they reduce the price of DDP, which I don't think many people expect to happen. If anything, many servers have posted they expect the price to go up in addition to the elimination of the gratuity.

Cumbersome or not, I don't see Disney wanting to get involved in the determination of the tip. I think they are supposed to be including the Tip Cards with the checks because a) we're all used to the gratuity being included and they need to let us know it's no longer included, and b) many international diners are not used to tipping at all, because in their countries the server's full salary is factored into the price of the meal.

 

[pilferk]

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but my description was of the system as it is today, and was an effort to describe the difference in tips received by servers at Disney restaurants vs. non-Disney owned restaurants on the DDP.

Your proposal sounds like something for the future...designed to build in accountability for the servers, I guess???

If so, the rumored changes to DDP have nothing to do with service. If Disney goes through with things as rumored, it will be because it increases their bottom line $13.50 on a $75 meal in the example above -- not because of any effect on service. What once was gratuity now becomes pure profit unless they reduce the price of DDP, which I don't think many people expect to happen. If anything, many servers have posted they expect the price to go up in addition to the elimination of the gratuity.

Cumbersome or not, I don't see Disney wanting to get involved in the determination of the tip. I think they are supposed to be including the Tip Cards with the checks because a) we're all used to the gratuity being included and they need to let us know it's no longer included, and b) many international diners are not used to tipping at all, because in their countries the server's full salary is factored into the price of the meal.

Yup, I quoted the wrong post...meant to quote this one:

There have been numerous posts on the DDP board by server CM's outlining the entire chain of events. And there have also been actual contract language quotes posted, so it's pretty clear what the outcome was. The exact final outcome was that the union agreed to the removal of the gratuity from DDP in return for adding an automatic 18% gratuity to all DDE checks and reducing the threshhold for automatic gratuities on larger parties from 8 to 6.

What is not clear is how Disney will implement the changes. The removal of the DDP gratuity language is worded basically as a trial program, with Disney holding the right to make it temporary or permanent. So they could remove the gratuity, and if that resulted in lower participation, they could put it back in. Or they could remove it only from Free DDP, for example.

The new contract takes effect on 1/1/2008, and that is probably the reason why the old contract is posted on the website. They still have half a year to go under the old contract, and it is that contract that governs all their activities for the rest of the year.

I'll edit the OP to do that.

You're right...it was a pondering of what they're doing in the future.

I'm not sure why you think it HAS to be, completely, about the bottom line....it might be, to be sure. But we've read enough "guest complaints" about service on the DDP, and not having control over the tip amount, to at least postulate that Disney may have been thinking about guest satisfaction in CONJUNCTION with their bottom line.

Again, I'm not saying I think my proposal will happen...only if it's one possible outcome from the contract language.

 

[JimMIA]

I'm not sure why you think it HAS to be, completely, about the bottom line....

Because it was the subject of some hard negotiations with the union, and was only accomplished after the union voted it down once. Disney originally took the postion that eliminating the gratuity was non-negotiable (they were really hard-nosed about getting rid of it), but after that rejection, they sweetened the pot a little in other areas and it was approved.

But we've read enough "guest complaints" about service on the DDP, and not having control over the tip amount, to at least postulate that Disney may have been thinking about guest satisfaction in CONJUNCTION with their bottom line.

We do see those complaints occasionally, but I have two observations and one theory about those complaints. The observations are 1) complaints along those lines are immediately followed by numerous posts saying the posters have never noticed any decrease in service due to being on DDP, and 2) Our family's actual experience has been that we have never noticed any difference in service on DDP.

The theory I have is that many of the folks who advocate removal of the tip from DDP do so because they don't want to tip 18%. [NOTE: I am NOT saying that applies to anyone here, but I've seen it on other boards, primarily the DDP board.]

Not everyone normally tips 18%...or even 15%, for that matter. And there is a school of thought that says the DDP is a discount plan, and therefore the tip should be based on the discounted price of the meal -- not the menu price. You can't just come out and say that -- because you'd get flamed for being cheap -- so some people say they want control over the tip when they really mean they want to tip much less than 18%.

The truth is, we have control now. If a server doesn't deserve 18%, just go to the manager and complain and ask them to adjust the gratuity. I would certainly have no qualms about going to a manager if I felt I'd received substandard service.

And complaining to the manager is a much better way of addressing poor service than withholding part of the tip. If I withhold part of the tip, the manager doesn't know there was a problem and the server just thinks I'm cheap. If I talk to the manager, both of them know there was a problem and they can fix it.

 

[3DisneyKids]

We have used the DDP for every trip since it was available. Never once have we felt snubbed--though I am not denying LisaViolet's or anyone else's negative experience. I wonder if it also has to do with time of year? We never travel during peak times, so maybe the waitstaff has never been over-worked, etc.

We are going during free dining this year...and I am already bracing myself for loud, crowded restaurants with less than great service...I guess that way, if things go well, we will be pleasantly surprised.

In terms of the tip-not-included rumor for 2008--this would likely cause us to abandone the DDP in favor of DDE.

 

[ZekeKelso]

But we've read enough "guest complaints" about service on the DDP, and not having control over the tip amount, to at least postulate that Disney may have been thinking about guest satisfaction in CONJUNCTION with their bottom line.

I wouldn't put it past Disney to try and spin it that way, but the notion that removing tips from the DDP (without a big cut in price) is being done *for the benefit of customers* is absurd.

My guess is that Disney tunes out a lot of complaints they see about the DDP. There are people who seem to want to blame the plan for anything that goes wrong or any changes they don't like. Bad service? Must be the fault of the DDP (ignore the fact that people not on the plan also get bad service from time to time.) Your favorite bar no longer has the drink you like? Must be the fault of the DDP (ignore the fact that drinks aren't even on the plan.) To be clear, I'm sure there are some legitimate complaints. But they are probably lost in the sea of blame-the-DDP-no-matter-what complaints.

Getting back to your point - I bet Disney could gut the plan and find a way to claim they were doing it for our sake. "We removed Le Cellier from the plan because folks were complaining about not getting ADR's." "We removed desserts from the plan because people were complaining out it being too much food." "You now must spend exactly 1TS/1CS/1Snack each day. We no longer roll over credits to make happy those people who complained about having left-over credits."

 

[hansel1]

There have been numerous posts on the DDP board by server CM's outlining the entire chain of events. And there have also been actual contract language quotes posted, so it's pretty clear what the outcome was. The exact final outcome was that the union agreed to the removal of the gratuity from DDP in return for adding an automatic 18% gratuity to all DDE checks and reducing the threshhold for automatic gratuities on larger parties from 8 to 6.

QUOTE]

I have read and participated in each of the previous DDP threads.

The contract language quoted was from the last contract that expired this past april, not the finalized contract from june.

The rumor is that disney gained the removal of tip from DDP in exchange for health care benefits and raises.

The 3 or 4 server CMs that started the threads mentioned that disney would probable make the DDE 18% automatic and reduce the table rate for 18% automatic tip from 8 people to 6.

DISNEYSERVER who was one that started the rumors here at the disboards had never posted prior to the contract problems. He/She was venting about the problems servers had with their union reps not adequately representing them.

The posts made in those threads were sort of self-serving. People were asked to contact disney and complain. They were told how bad it would be when disney ruined the DDP.

I question the validity of the rumors mainly because someone (especially DISNEYSERVER) should have a copy of the new contract by now. It might take 6 months to put on their website, but the union members should have a copy of what was voted on. Why hasn't that been posted here? After all they started the firestorm of rumors. If they truly are servers for disney, they should have a copy to prove the validity of what they have said.

So, once again I cannot determine how much credibility should be shown to the rumors until I see the contract.

 

[pilferk]

I wouldn't put it past Disney to try and spin it that way, but the notion that removing tips from the DDP (without a big cut in price) is being done *for the benefit of customers* is absurd.

My guess is that Disney tunes out a lot of complaints they see about the DDP. There are people who seem to want to blame the plan for anything that goes wrong or any changes they don't like. Bad service? Must be the fault of the DDP (ignore the fact that people not on the plan also get bad service from time to time.) Your favorite bar no longer has the drink you like? Must be the fault of the DDP (ignore the fact that drinks aren't even on the plan.) To be clear, I'm sure there are some legitimate complaints. But they are probably lost in the sea of blame-the-DDP-no-matter-what complaints.

Getting back to your point - I bet Disney could gut the plan and find a way to claim they were doing it for our sake. "We removed Le Cellier from the plan because folks were complaining about not getting ADR's." "We removed desserts from the plan because people were complaining out it being too much food." "You now must spend exactly 1TS/1CS/1Snack each day. We no longer roll over credits to make happy those people who complained about having left-over credits."

You misunderstand my thought...which is probably my fault.

I'm not saying they'll remove the tip altogether and try to say it's for guest satisfaction (while not lowering the price), though they might. That wasn't what I was pondering though....

I'm saying the GUEST would have the OPTION to remove the tip, but could also tip whatever % they think is appropriate UP TO 18%, and have it still be covered by the plan.

With the old contract language, there was no wiggle room. I know Jim said he thought the manager could remove the tip, but in reading the old contract language.....it doesn't seem that they could. They might be able to TELL you they could, but if they actually did it.....it would be greivable with the union, etc, and I think the contract language would hold up.

Now, the server might be disciplined for poor service, or "written up"...but I think they'd still get the tip, in the end.

With the new language, I THINK my scenario would be plausible.

FYI, I've never had a problem with the DDP....so am NOT one of those "complaining". I do see the theoretical behind some of the requests to have more control over the tip, though.

 

[BeccaG]

Actually, we are DVC members and we are staying on DVC points from 12/30-1/5. I did add the DDP to our reservation several weeks ago, and I was told by MS that since our vacation is beginning in 2007 that the 2007 price and conditions would apply to our entire vacation (even if the 2008 plan is different).

Although this thread took on a life of its own (as threads on message boards often do ) I just wanted to let you all know I did successfully add the DDP last Thursday and was told the same as discruiser that since my vacation spanned form 07-08 the 07 cost and terms would apply (the DVC cast member I was talking to said something that made it sound like they had at least negotiated that part, but I can't remember exactly what was said).

 

[lorli]

We have heard from a cast member and read in other places on the web, there is the potential for a major overhaul to the dining plan. I would guess this has something to do with not posting definites about booking ddp.

 

[Sora777]

If the tip is removed, I do feel bad for the servers. I have been in rest. many times where people have had $50 bill and have left $2 tip. Some have left none. I saw in Fridays on time someone leave change for a tip. There was 5 people sitting at that table.

Crazy!