18% being added to ALL dining checks

[Sandus]

I await your apology on that statement (even though I wasn't the one who posted it). I often tip 20% on the total non discounted amount ---- if the service is outstanding. Often times it is.

And when service is bad then I lower the tip AND have a chat with the manager.

When it is really really bad I have been known to contact corporate.

So if you see me and don't give good service turn the other way, because I will take the time to complain.

Likewise if you are really really good I will let the manager know.

This appeared after my reply.

If what you say is actually the case, then I commend you. Educated consumers like you actually do improve the quality of restaurants.

However, why should a policy like this change how you do things? If bad service results in a discussion with the manager then you can simply add "and please remove the automatic 18% from my check" to the end of the conversation and all is status quo. If you wish to add additional tip, in the event of outstanding service, nobody will argue with you.

I believe your issue is with your standard tip for "good" service, which I would guess is below 18%, and thus the outrage over the system.

 

[Another Voice]

If you had no problem paying for service, then an automatic gratuity would be a non-issue.

But the restaurant needs to be honest up front and call it a service charge. At that point I can make the decision for myself that I’m giving up my right to tip. But when Disney still calls the forced additional charge a “tip” – that is meant to imply that it’s optional because that’s what people think “tip” means.

I'm paying seventy-five bucks just for the right to get into a Disney park for the opportunity to eat at their overpriced restaurants - and now the solution is to waste time telling a manager to remove a forced tip? That's customer service.

Call the charge what it is and be honest with people.

If you want to avoid paying the bulk of a server's income via gratuity, stop dining out.

Back at you: If you can’t live on what the restaurant pays – get another job.

Tipping has not been optional in a very long time.

Really – Denny’s has now been automatically adding tips to everyone’s bill? I guess I need to dine out more often.

and rather than have all the good servers quit as a result of being constantly screwed by people unfamiliar with American tipping customs

Wait a minute – now it’s all the fault of those damn foreigners!!!! I knew those Brazilians were up to no good. Sorry – but that’s just silly. Disney is instituting forced gratuities because Disney refuses to pay a wage that would attract quality employees. Disney is stuffing a whole lot of their costs down onto me in a back-handed manner and I have every right to write against it.

then you are a liar and do not tip well.

Honey, with that attitude, not tipping you would be a joy.

Everybody is acting like the 18% is some kind of bonus on top of a salary that servers pocket

That – in short – is exactly what a tip is.

Anything that I am forced to pay – whether it goes to you or the manager – is a service charge.

The difference being is that when I have no control over how much I pay, I also tend to lose control over the quality of service I get. Sorry if basic free markets are so horrible for you – but I think I get better service when there is an incentive to do well, and service gets worse when there’s no incentive to do anything at all.

 

[manning]

What kind of work do you do? How would you feel if your boss came up to you and said "I don't think you did a very good job today, so you're only going to get paid for half"?

Actually I wouldn't have to worry about that. More than likely I would have to worry about being fired.

I worked under a system called result management. Some swear by it, some at it.

With that you and your boss come up with defined goals and how you will be gauged by it. If you say you can complete 95% (agreed upon) of the job in a specified time got an excellent grade and tip (raise). If you complete 50%(agreed upon) of the job you didn't get a tip (raise), under that 50% more than likely you got invited to pack your things and leave (fired).

It couldn't be done with your job, but the amount of tip should act as an incentive.

 

[agnes!]

I can't remember if I read this particular bit within this thread or elsewhere on the DIS, but I seem to remember that a recent WDW diner attempted to have this service charge (yes, it was apparently already being added to some establishment's checks) removed and the manager refused. Does anyone else remember reading that post?

It really will be a service charge, you know, not a gratuity.

agnes!

 

[Sandus]

But the restaurant needs to be honest up front and call it a service charge. At that point I can make the decision for myself that I’m giving up my right to tip. But when Disney still calls the forced additional charge a “tip” – that is meant to imply that it’s optional because that’s what people think “tip” means.

I'm paying seventy-five bucks just for the right to get into a Disney park for the opportunity to eat at their overpriced restaurants - and now the solution is to waste time telling a manager to remove a forced tip? That's customer service.

Call the charge what it is and be honest with people.

I'm not going to argue semantics. It's a service charge, to make sure that the employees are being taken care of. If you believe you've overpaid for inferior service, then it's your obligation as a consumer to get it corrected, much in the same way you would return to the store if you were overcharged for an item.

If you can’t live on what the restaurant pays – get another job.

Okay, let's play that game. The average mid-range large restaurant will do approximately $25000 in business per night (roughly 500 people). For those 500 people you would require approximately 18 servers who would make an average of $200 each and 2-3 bartenders at $250 each. That's an additional $4350 that you're asking the restaurant to assume (not including the cost of bus boys and food runners, who typically get paid by servers). How do they pay for that extra labor cost? By raising prices. That $25000 in sales becomes $29350 in sales, an increase of...17.4%. Now factor in that you're paying tax on the additional prices (gratuity is not taxable) and you see that by letting you pay the server, you're actually saving the restaurant money and keeping prices down.

The "get another job" argument fails when you find out that if a restaurant pays minimum wage with no tips, you get minimum wage caliber employees, a la McDonald's. Do you enjoy your McDonald's service experience? When was the last time a McDonald's employee went above and beyond your expectations? Are they trained in the food and drink? The next time you go out for fast food, ask them something about the products they serve, like "What kind of fish is in the fish sandwich?" That's minimum wage service.

Wait a minute – now it’s all the fault of those damn foreigners!!!! I knew those Brazilians were up to no good. Sorry – but that’s just silly. Disney is instituting forced gratuities because Disney refuses to pay a wage that would attract quality employees. Disney is stuffing a whole lot of their costs down onto me in a back-handed manner and I have every right to write against it.

I didn't say foreigners. There are a good number of Americans (including some on this thread) with abhorrent tipping practices. I give people from foreign countries the benefit of the doubt because they may not always be educated in how they are supposed to tip (there's a thread elsewhere on this site at the moment where an English lady said that $5-10 for an entire meal, regardless of price, would be a substantial tip), but seeing as Walt Disney World is a place with substantial international tourism, it behooves them to protect their employees from people who don't know any better.

Honey, with that attitude, not tipping you would be a joy.

And yet, even if I knew you weren't tipping, you'd still get a high level of service.

Even so, you cannot dispute the validity of the statement. If you tip at least 18% all the time, then there's no need to get upset about this change.

The difference being is that when I have no control over how much I pay, I also tend to lose control over the quality of service I get. Sorry if basic free markets are so horrible for you – but I think I get better service when there is an incentive to do well, and service gets worse when there’s no incentive to do anything at all.

I already told you that you have no control over the quality of service you get. No server ever goes to a table with the belief that he or she will be happy just to get 18%. They want 20. Those who are accustomed to 20% want 25. You still have the ability to reward exceptional service, and so there is still the motivation to perform exceptionally.

You can argue all you want about punishing people who don't perform up to your standards, but that person just spent the last 75-100 minutes thinking about how to make you happy. The least you can do is give him enough money to keep a consistent income. In the long run, servers who aren't very good will go one of two ways. They'll either improve, or they'll be forced to move on.

I'll say it again:
If you say that you normally tip well, but this policy will cause you to change that, then you are a liar and do not tip well. If you do not tip well, and this policy causes you to spend more money, then Disney has done the right thing.

 

[shecky4185]

Sandus i agree with you 100%. Now I'm not trying to get on peoples bad side, but it is very clear that 99% of you have never been servers. It is one of the hardest jobs i've ever had. I understand that you guys want to have control over how much you tip, but if you say you normally tip well, then this should not be an issue at all. If you have horrible service then simply notify the manager, no biggie. And if you are one of those people who normally tip 10-15%, even for the best service, then this should be a wake up call that you are clearly not tipping the appropriate ammount.

And as for "getting a better job" Are you seriously saying you've never said you hate your job, or you wish you could make more money? Its a lot easier said than done. people complain about their jobs all the time, deal with it.

 

[ChrisFL]

Sandus i agree with you 100%. Now I'm not trying to get on peoples bad side, but it is very clear that 99% of you have never been servers. It is one of the hardest jobs i've ever had. I understand that you guys want to have control over how much you tip, but if you say you normally tip well, then this should not be an issue at all. If you have horrible service then simply notify the manager, no biggie. And if you are one of those people who normally tip 10-15%, even for the best service, then this should be a wake up call that you are clearly not tipping the appropriate ammount.

And as for "getting a better job" Are you seriously saying you've never said you hate your job, or you wish you could make more money? Its a lot easier said than done. people complain about their jobs all the time, deal with it.

That's besides the point. IF a 18% "Gratuity" is automatically added, then it is NO LONGER a "Gratuity" but a SERVICE CHARGE and should be displayed as such.

You say "simply notify the manager" but in reality, I can forsee this taking up a LOT of the manager's time if every few tables need to complain about something as off the wall as an "automatic gratuity"

 

[DancingBear]

I already told you that you have no control over the quality of service you get. No server ever goes to a table with the belief that he or she will be happy just to get 18%. They want 20. Those who are accustomed to 20% want 25. You still have the ability to reward exceptional service, and so there is still the motivation to perform exceptionally.

You can argue all you want about punishing people who don't perform up to your standards, but that person just spent the last 75-100 minutes thinking about how to make you happy. The least you can do is give him enough money to keep a consistent income. In the long run, servers who aren't very good will go one of two ways. They'll either improve, or they'll be forced to move on.

You must be an exceptional server; I've had plenty who I will guaranty didn't spend more than perhaps a few moments thinking about how to make me happy.

I've worked in the restaurant business and been around plenty of servers, and all the ones I've known have spent plenty of time prejudging the amount of the tip they were going to receive, paying special attention to those who might be big tippers, and less to those that they "know" are the stiffing type.

Or, they worked hard at pleasing guests because they wanted to get the maximum tips possible from the guests. And the fact is, once you make everyone pay an 18% service charge, you've taken away some of that incentive. Sure you can add on, and sure you can try to find a manager to take off the charge, but we all know that the vast majority of folks will just pay the 18% and move on. And when the servers know that (in the absence of a culture of service such as exists in some places in Europe where included service charges are the norm), they will respond accordingly.

 

[sarcasticblonde]

You must be an exceptional server; I've had plenty who I will guaranty didn't spend more than perhaps a few moments thinking about how to make me happy.

I've worked in the restaurant business and been around plenty of servers, and all the ones I've known have spent plenty of time prejudging the amount of the tip they were going to receive, paying special attention to those who might be big tippers, and less to those that they "know" are the stiffing type.

I have no idea what sort of restaurants you go to. All I can say to you is this: As I stated earlier, I work in a higher end restaurant in Chicago. It's the sort of place where you need to have 2 years of fine dining experience to work there. In my job, if you have 4-5 tables at the same time, you had better be giving them extraordinary service and finding ways to make all of them happy. But you know what? I also used to work at a McDonalds and a Dairy Queen when I was in high school. I still tried to make people happy. And there, I didn't make squat. No one ever gave me a tip. And people were even MORE rude than people that eat in sit down restaurants. Nevertheless, I was nice, polite, gave them good service and tried to make them happy.

You've obviously never worked in a restaurant before. It's one of the most grueling and mentally taxing jobs one can have. And you may think that is untrue, but I've seen many, many servers get yelled at, talked down to and just humiliated by guests who were on a power trip ("Do you know who I am? I can have you fired!").

Servers could find other jobs. But SOMEONE has to work those jobs. If no one tipped at sit down restaurants, there would be no servers. I can assure you that no server is going to work for $2.50 an hour.

Or, they worked hard at pleasing guests because they wanted to get the maximum tips possible from the guests. And the fact is, once you make everyone pay an 18% service charge, you've taken away some of that incentive. Sure you can add on, and sure you can try to find a manager to take off the charge, but we all know that the vast majority of folks will just pay the 18% and move on. And when the servers know that (in the absence of a culture of service such as exists in some places in Europe where included service charges are the norm), they will respond accordingly.

I'm telling you, no server wants 18%. Servers wants 20% or better. Some servers, especially at WDW, love children and will bend over backwards to make your little guy or girl feel special. They will listen to your demands, they will get you your bleu cheese on the side, your lite dressing, your 18 refills on water, pick up your child's broken crayons, clean up your soda spill, and do it all with a smile.

I'm sorry if you have had bad servers in the past. Most of the "bad" servers I know are ones that have become jaded due to bad tipping and rude guests talking down to them.

 

[PrincessBride010103]

I have no idea what sort of restaurants you go to. All I can say to you is this: As I stated earlier, I work in a higher end restaurant in Chicago. It's the sort of place where you need to have 2 years of fine dining experience to work there. In my job, if you have 4-5 tables at the same time, you had better be giving them extraordinary service and finding ways to make all of them happy. But you know what? I also used to work at a McDonalds and a Dairy Queen when I was in high school. I still tried to make people happy. And there, I didn't make squat. No one ever gave me a tip. And people were even MORE rude than people that eat in sit down restaurants. Nevertheless, I was nice, polite, gave them good service and tried to make them happy.

You've obviously never worked in a restaurant before. It's one of the most grueling and mentally taxing jobs one can have. And you may think that is untrue, but I've seen many, many servers get yelled at, talked down to and just humiliated by guests who were on a power trip ("Do you know who I am? I can have you fired!").

Servers could find other jobs. But SOMEONE has to work those jobs. If no one tipped at sit down restaurants, there would be no servers. I can assure you that no server is going to work for $2.50 an hour.



I'm telling you, no server wants 18%. Servers wants 20% or better. Some servers, especially at WDW, love children and will bend over backwards to make your little guy or girl feel special. They will listen to your demands, they will get you your bleu cheese on the side, your lite dressing, your 18 refills on water, pick up your child's broken crayons, clean up your soda spill, and do it all with a smile.

I'm sorry if you have had bad servers in the past. Most of the "bad" servers I know are ones that have become jaded due to bad tipping and rude guests talking down to them.

I couldn't have said this better myself....

 

[Another Voice]

I'm telling you, no server wants 18%. Servers wants 20% or better.

Finally - the heart of the matter.

We, the customers, want the "traditional" system where we paid a voluntary amount for service. We like it because we believe (wrongly or rightly) it encourages better service. You, the wait staff, want an mandatory fixed charge added onto all the bills because it will give you higher incomes.

It's "tips" vs. "service charge".

I have no problem with either system. But I do want to know up front which system I'll be dining under.

That is the problem with what Disney is doing. They're changing the rules but using the wrong names. There is nothing "voluntary" when it is automatically added onto the bill; I know I'm not going to get the same level of service even though it's called a "tip".

Yes, it's nice you want more money. But that doesn't give you any reason for calling us lying jerks because we like the way things are currently arranged. If you want the system changed, be honest about it and discuss it. By personal insults and "you obviously have never..." simply reduce your position to little more than greed.

 

[sarcasticblonde]

Finally - the heart of the matter.

We, the customers, want the "traditional" system where we paid a voluntary amount for service. We like it because we believe (wrongly or rightly) it encourages better service. You, the wait staff, want an mandatory fixed charge added onto all the bills because it will give you higher incomes.

It's "tips" vs. "service charge".

I have no problem with either system. But I do want to know up front which system I'll be dining under.

That is the problem with what Disney is doing. They're changing the rules but using the wrong names. There is nothing "voluntary" when it is automatically added onto the bill; I know I'm not going to get the same level of service even though it's called a "tip".

Yes, it's nice you want more money. But that doesn't give you any reason for calling us lying jerks because we like the way things are currently arranged. If you want the system changed, be honest about it and discuss it. By personal insults and "you obviously have never..." simply reduce your position to little more than greed.

You can turn it around however you wish so that it neatly fits into your argument.

I stand by what I said that servers want that 20%. But as you so wonderfully misinterpreted my statement, servers will STRIVE to work for the 20%. Just because they may know they are getting a guaranteed 18% doesn't mean that they won't give you the 20% service. You work harder for more money. Who doesn't do this in life? Who doesn't teach their kids that the harder they work the better they will be rewaded?

 

[ChrisFL]

You can turn it around however you wish so that it neatly fits into your argument.

I don't think AV is turning anything around, facts are facts, the name disney is using for this is fundamentally incorrect. It doesn't matter whether you are a server, been a server or never seen a server in your life the facts of the matter don't change.

 

[EUROPACL]

I stand by what I said that servers want that 20%. But as you so wonderfully misinterpreted my statement, servers will STRIVE to work for the 20%. Just because they may know they are getting a guaranteed 18% doesn't mean that they won't give you the 20% service. You work harder for more money. Who doesn't do this in life? Who doesn't teach their kids that the harder they work the better they will be rewaded?

OMG what world do you live in? Is the sky still blue there? That is one of the funniest things I've ever read in my life.

 

[DancingBear]

I have no idea what sort of restaurants you go to. All I can say to you is this: As I stated earlier, I work in a higher end restaurant in Chicago. It's the sort of place where you need to have 2 years of fine dining experience to work there. In my job, if you have 4-5 tables at the same time, you had better be giving them extraordinary service and finding ways to make all of them happy. But you know what? I also used to work at a McDonalds and a Dairy Queen when I was in high school. I still tried to make people happy. And there, I didn't make squat. No one ever gave me a tip. And people were even MORE rude than people that eat in sit down restaurants. Nevertheless, I was nice, polite, gave them good service and tried to make them happy.

That's great. I'd love to have you be my server, and I'd tip well. And it sounds like the servers at your restaurant are the cream of the crop. But are you really saying all servers have the same great attitude and work ethic that you do?

You've obviously never worked in a restaurant before. It's one of the most grueling and mentally taxing jobs one can have. And you may think that is untrue, but I've seen many, many servers get yelled at, talked down to and just humiliated by guests who were on a power trip ("Do you know who I am? I can have you fired!").

Actually (as I mentioned earlier) I worked at a restaurant for several years, in the kitchen, in very grueling and taxing jobs where I made less money than even the worst of the servers. And my wife was a hostess and server off and on for several years. I'm very happy I don't still work in a restaurant; it is very demanding.

I'm telling you, no server wants 18%. Servers wants 20% or better.

I have no doubt that's true. But do you really think all servers are willing to go the extra mile for 20% if they know they're going to get 18% from 90+ percent of the patrons no matter what?

I'm sorry if you have had bad servers in the past. Most of the "bad" servers I know are ones that have become jaded due to bad tipping and rude guests talking down to them.

Perhaps. If so, they didn't get that way because of me, so I hope they don't bring their bad attitudes to my table.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Finally - the heart of the matter.

We, the customers, want the "traditional" system where we paid a voluntary amount for service. We like it because we believe (wrongly or rightly) it encourages better service. You, the wait staff, want an mandatory fixed charge added onto all the bills because it will give you higher incomes.

It's "tips" vs. "service charge".

I have no problem with either system. But I do want to know up front which system I'll be dining under.

That is the problem with what Disney is doing. They're changing the rules but using the wrong names. There is nothing "voluntary" when it is automatically added onto the bill; I know I'm not going to get the same level of service even though it's called a "tip".

Yes, it's nice you want more money. But that doesn't give you any reason for calling us lying jerks because we like the way things are currently arranged. If you want the system changed, be honest about it and discuss it. By personal insults and "you obviously have never..." simply reduce your position to little more than greed.

I'm sensitive to your "gratuity vs. service charge" and "you are taking away my choice" arguments. They are valid questions/concerns. You lose me when you turn this into a "Disney screwing the customer cost saving measure" argument. How is this a cost saving measure for Disney?

 

[sarcasticblonde]

OMG what world do you live in? Is the sky still blue there? That is one of the funniest things I've ever read in my life.

Yes...apparently it's hysterical to think that someone actually works hard at their job. What world do you live in?

That's great. I'd love to have you be my server, and I'd tip well. And it sounds like the servers at your restaurant are the cream of the crop. But are you really saying all servers have the same great attitude and work ethic that you do?

No, I am not saying that. And those are the ones that you should complain about so that they can be reprimanded and/or fired. Weed out all the bad servers so that you have only the best working there. Then people wouldn't feel quite as cheated with the added gratuity.

I have no doubt that's true. But do you really think all servers are willing to go the extra mile for 20% if they know they're going to get 18% from 90+ percent of the patrons no matter what?

I suppose that I cannot speak for every server in the US or WDW for that matter. I can only tell you that I work hard for my money and that everyone that I work with works hard for their money.

 

[EUROPACL]

Yes...apparently it's hysterical to think that someone actually works hard at their job. What world do you live in?

Oh now I see you were talking about one person that you know who works hard at their job. Yes I know that person too. I thought that you were saying the world was filled with people(servers especially) that want to do nothing but hard work for their money. Yes clearly the world is filled with these people and that is the number 1 goal that every parent instills in their child "busting your butt at your job". I mean really now when anyone thinks "Mcdonalds" they think "hard working trying to make the customer happy".

 

[sarcasticblonde]

Oh now I see you were talking about one person that you know who works hard at their job. Yes I know that person too. I thought that you were saying the world was filled with people(servers especially) that want to do nothing but hard work for their money. Yes clearly the world is filled with these people and that is the number 1 goal that every parent instills in their child "busting your butt at your job". I mean really now when anyone thinks "Mcdonalds" they think "hard working trying to make the customer happy".

So many things come to mind to say back to you. Instead, I will keep it civil.

I know many people who work hard for their money, myself included. I don't work at McDonalds. I worked at a McDonalds 9 years ago when I was 16. Learn to read.

And I watched my father work hard my entire life to provide for his family. He's a good man who taught his children to work hard to have the things that they want in life. He also taught us that people respect and reward hard workers. Why is that a bad thing? How is that living in a fairy tale world? I've experienced many rewards due to my hard work.

Perhaps you've been able to bait me into an argument but unfortunately this is an issue that I strongly care about.

 

[EUROPACL]

So many things come to mind to say back to you. Instead, I will keep it civil.

I know many people who work hard for their money, myself included. I don't work at McDonalds. I worked at a McDonalds 9 years ago when I was 16. Learn to read.

And I watched my father work hard my entire life to provide for his family. He's a good man who taught his children to work hard to have the things that they want in life. He also taught us that people respect and reward hard workers. Why is that a bad thing? How is that living in a fairy tale world? I've experienced many rewards due to my hard work.

Perhaps you've been able to bait me into an argument but unfortunately this is an issue that I strongly care about.

Oh I missed where I said you still worked at Mcdonalds (learn to read) it was a subtle point. (go back and read slower this time maybe you will get the point).

*Sigh* nobody question how you were raised or if you work hard for your money, or if that is a good thing to teach the kids. It was the fact that you implied it was the overall norm with servers and people in general. Which brings us back to your days at McDonalds...I'm sure the one you worked out was filled with people that wanted to do nothing but server the hotest fries and freshes Mcribs...a quick check in the real world will find that not to be the case and..... my point.