13 Year old gir declared brain dead has now officially died

[perditax]

I used to follow this story on the Websleuths forums. The thread got locked, but it should still be searchable. I mention this because there were some amazingly knowledgeable and informative folks (from both medical and legal backgrounds) who explained a lot of stuff to us lay people.

What they've done in that situation is really horrifying (bullying her former school into letting her "graduate" by threatening them with the media, countless other things), and sets a scary precedent.

 

[sonnyjane]

For those with a morbid curiosity, here is a video allegedly shot in September/October 2016. http://www.lifenews.com/2016/10/10/...dead-now-jahi-mcmath-is-breathing-on-her-own/

 

[bcla]

Which state? California? That seems unlikely. She's dead as far as California is concerned.

New Jersey is paying. I believe under Medicaid.

 

[disneychrista]

For those with a morbid curiosity, here is a video allegedly shot in September/October 2016.

It shows a machine. Not Jahi. Same as the video of hand movements. It never shows her.

 

[sonnyjane]

It shows a machine. Not Jahi. Same as the video of hand movements. It never shows her.

It shows her very briefly at the end, but I know it's a long video. I purposefully fast forwarded to see if they ever showed her. Maybe there's a medical person on here but.... the people I know that have been immobile and getting fed through a tube usually lose weight and become gaunt. It doesn't look like she's lost an ounce?

 

[mi*vida*loca]

It's being paid under NJ Medicaid. I'm sure at 100% covered. Does anyone know which hospital she is in?

 

[bellebud]

I agree it doesn't look like she's lost any weight at all. But does she look swollen? Such a sad case.

 

[bcla]

It's being paid under NJ Medicaid. I'm sure at 100% covered. Does anyone know which hospital she is in?

Not at a hospital. Two years ago it was reported they moved the body to a New Jersey apartment and the landlord filed a legal complaint that they hadn't paid two month's rent.

 

[wilkeliza]

Thanks @perditax for pointing out webslueths. They still are putting up links and updates on this case. What I found interesting is reviewing the court documents only 1 US doctor will touch this case. It did give his medical license number for the state of NJ but I didn't look him up. This specific doctor also isn't saying anything about her brain. Instead he is using skin, heart rate, and other markers to show life not brain activity. The one guy who is seeing the scans and is claiming brain activity is a doctor from Cuba. Oddly in both cases that went to CA courts recently it was a non-US doctor who said they child was in fact not brain dead just severely brain damaged with a 0% chance of any recovery so to me that seems like not much difference.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

It shows her very briefly at the end, but I know it's a long video. I purposefully fast forwarded to see if they ever showed her. Maybe there's a medical person on here but.... the people I know that have been immobile and getting fed through a tube usually lose weight and become gaunt. It doesn't look like she's lost an ounce?

I think a lot of it is bloat from the fluids and some of the tissues in her skin breaking down a bit.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

It shows her very briefly at the end, but I know it's a long video. I purposefully fast forwarded to see if they ever showed her. Maybe there's a medical person on here but.... the people I know that have been immobile and getting fed through a tube usually lose weight and become gaunt. It doesn't look like she's lost an ounce?

With brain swelling, they give steroids, and those can cause puffiness and other problems (like elevated blood sugars). She'd also be getting nutrition and fluids through probably a GTube going right into her stomach. But yes, I agree, you'd think we might expect to see that she'd be a little more gaunt after three years in her condition. Apparently, though, she's getting round the clock care and lots of TLC from her family and friends, so I guess not surprising she'd still look like herself - as they want her to look.

 

[bcla]

With brain swelling, they give steroids, and those can cause puffiness and other problems (like elevated blood sugars). She'd also be getting nutrition and fluids through probably a GTube going right into her stomach. But yes, I agree, you'd think we might expect to see that she'd be a little more gaunt after three years in her condition. Apparently, though, she's getting round the clock care and lots of TLC from her family and friends, so I guess not surprising she'd still look like herself - as they want her to look.

Basically this is one step removed from Vladimir Lenin. It's basically cosmetic. Too bad they can't broadcast what it smells like in there. They must be using cases of Febreeze.

 

[bcla]

Thanks @perditax for pointing out webslueths. They still are putting up links and updates on this case. What I found interesting is reviewing the court documents only 1 US doctor will touch this case. It did give his medical license number for the state of NJ but I didn't look him up. This specific doctor also isn't saying anything about her brain. Instead he is using skin, heart rate, and other markers to show life not brain activity. The one guy who is seeing the scans and is claiming brain activity is a doctor from Cuba. Oddly in both cases that went to CA courts recently it was a non-US doctor who said they child was in fact not brain dead just severely brain damaged with a 0% chance of any recovery so to me that seems like not much difference.

It does make a difference if they want to get the death certificate rescinded. California has a $250,000 liability cap on medical malpractice "noneconomic" damages. If they can get that determination of death rescinded, they can then sue for the costs of future care, which are considered economic damages. I heard of one case (also Children's Hospital of Northern California) where the family was awarded about $4 million to pay for future care. There are cynics who believe that if they could manage to do that, they would take the money and then determine that they don't want her in that state.

Their attorney specializes in personal injury. He's taking this case for free, but he was using the publicity to try and get a ballot initiative passed that would raise the malpractice award limit to over $1 million. I've heard his radio ads, and I want to turn off my radio every time.

 

[wilkeliza]

It does make a difference if they want to get the death certificate rescinded. California has a $250,000 liability cap on medical malpractice "noneconomic" damages. If they can get that determination of death rescinded, they can then sue for the costs of future care, which are considered economic damages. I heard of one case (also Children's Hospital of Northern California) where the family was awarded about $4 million to pay for future care. There are cynics who believe that if they could manage to do that, they would take the money and then determine that they don't want her in that state.

Their attorney specializes in personal injury. He's taking this case for free, but he was using the publicity to try and get a ballot initiative passed that would raise the malpractice award limit to over $1 million. I've heard his radio ads, and I want to turn off my radio every time.

Sorry should have clarified personally it doesn't make a difference. Significant brain damage with 0% chance of improvement is the same thing to me personally even though I know legally in CA there is a difference.

 

[bcla]

Sorry should have clarified personally it doesn't make a difference. Significant brain damage with 0% chance of improvement is the same thing to me personally even though I know legally in CA there is a difference.

Sure. A body with just a functioning brain stem isn't brain dead, but certainly there's no consciousness.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Just to clarify, I believe that in Jahi's case, her brain stem was determined to be dead, as well.

When there are movements in the body in this situation, they come from a nervous system different from the central nervous system, and that doesn't include the brain.

This article helps explain some things, including @ronandannete, a mention of the brain liquefying after death.

http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/06/local/la-me-ln-jahi-mcmath-case-questions-answers-20140106

 

[mousefanmichelle]

Ok what if she isn't deteriorating? What if her brain isn't liquifying? What if her body is just being maintained and she is in a vegatative state and will just never wake up. Everything the docs have said pointed to the fact that she would be a pile of goo by a few months after this all happened and that doesn't seem to be the case 3 years later. So now what?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Ok what if she isn't deteriorating? What if her brain isn't liquifying? What if her body is just being maintained and she is in a vegatative state and will just never wake up. Everything the docs have said pointed to the fact that she would be a pile of goo by a few months after this all happened and that doesn't seem to be the case 3 years later. So now what?

I imagine her family will devote their lives to keeping her going in her current state, or whatever state she's in, if they can.

But I think it should be clarified, that she is not in a persistent vegetative state. She was declared legally dead. There is a difference. They are essentially keeping a dead body going by artificial means. (With respect to her family thinking she is not brain dead.)

What is Brain Death?

Unlike persistent vegetative state, brain death is the irreversible loss of all functions of the brain, including the brainstem (which controls breathing and other vital functions). Certain reflexes, such as spontaneous movement of limbs or sweating, sometimes occur in brain dead individuals. But the diagnosis of brain death is much more definitive than PVS and relies on three main components:

1. Coma: Patient should be completely unresponsive and unconscious (typically tested with painful stimuli).
2. Absence of Brainstem Reflexes: Patient should be unresponsive to stimuli that otherwise would trigger an involuntary response (such as dilation of the pupils in the presence of a bright light).
3. Apnea Test: The patient, when disconnected from a respirator, should not have respiratory movements and will show other measurable signs supporting the diagnosis of brain death.

If the patient is diagnosed as brain dead, he will be declared clinically and legally dead.

This is why no mainstream doctors will touch the case.

 

[wilkeliza]

Ok what if she isn't deteriorating? What if her brain isn't liquifying? What if her body is just being maintained and she is in a vegatative state and will just never wake up. Everything the docs have said pointed to the fact that she would be a pile of goo by a few months after this all happened and that doesn't seem to be the case 3 years later. So now what?

Now what is that the family should really consider are they keeping her alive for their own sake or is there actually any realistic chance of her improving. At what point is is selfish to keep someone on life support?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Another definition:

What is brain death?
Brain death occurs when a person has an irreversible, catastrophic brain injury, which causes total cessation of all brain function (the upper brain structure and brain stem). Brain death is not a coma or persistent vegetative state. Brain death is determined in the hospital by one or more physicians not associated with a transplantation team.

And a picture, which I think is worth a thousand words - a functional brain on the left; brain death on the right.

I was just reading through some things and apparently the Cuban doctor did an EEG that he claimed showed brain activity, but it wasn't done in a hospital with the right equipment, and the "activity" they saw they attributed to other things, therefore a judge rejected the results.