13 Year old gir declared brain dead has now officially died

[laurie31]

After thinking more about this I feel it's just too macabre and gruesome.
So the child has a death certificate with a "time of death'" on it, and the coroner must give permission for "the body" to be moved.
So they are just...using machines to pump air in and out of the lungs, making them rise and fall as if there is breath...but it's being done inside of a dead body? Realizing that is just...horrific.
Before, I was thinking of it as "letting her go" etc but now I'm realizing this isn't even about letting her die, this is about the decision to stop keeping a dead body warm and pushing air through it. these parents need a grief counselor NOW and they need to be helped to realize what they are holding onto is not their daughter but simply a deceased body. This is more horrific than I can imagine and I really, really hope that someone makes them realized this. The whole thing is just awful and gruesome and they need to realize that their child is gone, that body laying there is not their child.

You are exactly right. It's very gruesome and also very sad and difficult for the staff to care for a dead body. It's one thing to bathe a body and do postmortem care, but to take care of a body for days on end...it's really terrible.

She is not in a coma, a vegetative state, etc. She is dead. That's terrible. It really is. And in a few more days, it's going to be more terrible, because she is....I can't think of any way to phrase this that doesn't seem insensitive, but she's going to begin to decay. Keeping a dead body on a ventilator (and probably TONS of medication to keep the heart beating and the blood pressure up) does not make one alive. In another week or so, this whole thing is going to be moot, because at some point, NOTHING is going to keep her vital signs present.

 

[a1tinkfans]

A tragedy all around.

I do not claim to know all/any facts but based on what I have read ...this unfortunate child is dead, no longer living/no longer able to sustain her own life.
It is a horrendous situation for the family, for the care givers, for anyone touched by this childs situation.
As one who had to participate in making a final determination on whether to "pull the plug" on a loved one, its beyond words to comprehend.
But watching your loved one continue to be manipulated (on a ventilator) and knowing there is no way to truly help them have any type of life is worse. Every flicker, thought to be seen or not seen, every nuance of every beep.... compounds the dire situation and rational thought gets lost in the myriad of devastating moments being played out before you, over and over.
Its devastating to watch and endure for everyone.
I pray that this family can get the help they need to resolve the inevitable, to provide closure, to grieve... and then somehow with the love of friends and family, move on to healing.


Tell your loved ones you Love them.......................dont wait.


(RIP to an Amazing woman, Loving mom, Grandma and Wife. )

 

[bittybabygrower]

She is most likely receiving IV nutrition. We can sustain good cell health with total IV nutrition, but eventually bad things happen to organs. But I am also guessing she is on multiple drips of meds to keep her blood pressure from plumenting which will soon lead to a lot of bad happenings in her body.

 

[barkley]

This just gets more and more horrible. This family can bash/ say whatever they want but will not allow the hospital to speak out. I feel badly for the staff there. As a nurse I am sorry for this family....but we have only heard their side of the story and my heart hurts more for the nurses taking care of this shell .

I have my doubts they are going to find anyone truly willing to do the surgeries in fear of this girl dying "again" on their table and setting themselves up to be named by the money hungry lawyers. And no facility is going to take her without a stable airway and a means to feed her. And what if she decides to die yet again em route to this other facility and who is paying for this and for her family to go to her?? The lawyers are probably fronting money on the assumption of a payout from the malpractice. And if they are awarded, it goes to a trust for her care. When that money runs out then what?

This is just so unethical and cruel it makes my stomach hurt.

this is a sad, tragic situation. on the subject of lawyers fronting money though-California enacted a law in 1975 that capped 'pain and suffering' damages in medical malpractice cases to a maximum of $250,000. since a child is not employed there's no avenue for economic loss, and since (in this case) the child has already been declared dead with a death certificate issued it would be an uphill battle to be awarded on-going medical expenses. I have to wonder how their insurance will handle this situation (private or state funded, it generally ceases on the day of death as noted on the death certificate). in any case I suspect the only ones who would make any money would be the lawyers.


I'm curious-for those on this thread that are in the medical field. if this little girl was put on the vent 12/9 and subsequently declared dead on 12/12, does this mean she's been without a feeding tube and/or hydration this whole time (just shy of 3 full weeks)?

 

[sonnyjane]

t

I'm curious-for those on this thread that are in the medical field. if this little girl was put on the vent 12/9 and subsequently declared dead on 12/12, does this mean she's been without a feeding tube and/or hydration this whole time (just shy of 3 full weeks)?

Was just coming to post/ask the same thing. And is her tissue already deteriorating?

ETA: In this video, the family is saying that she is moving? Is that wishful thinking on their part or can she still move??

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/28/health/life-support-ethics/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews

 

[TLSnell1981]

We have friends, who had difficulty, letting their daughter go. Sometimes, it takes longer to accept the loss. The mind and the heart don't always agree..

 

[Lorelei Lee]

Was just coming to post/ask the same thing. And is her tissue already deteriorating?

ETA: In this video, the family is saying that she is moving? Is that wishful thinking on their part or can she still move??

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/28/health/life-support-ethics/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews

I think the parents are seeing what they want to see.

 

[sonnyjane]

I think the parents are seeing what they want to see.

That's what I assumed. Hearing the mom talk... saying she wants the hospital do what they need to do to "make her daughter better". etc.... it's clear to me that she is delusional and in denial. The guy asked her what would make her believe her daughter was dead and she said if her heart stops beating. So...... if they took her off the ventilator and everything stopped...........................................................

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

That's what I assumed. Hearing the mom talk... saying she wants the hospital do what they need to do to "make her daughter better". etc.... it's clear to me that she is delusional and in denial. The guy asked her what would make her believe her daughter was dead and she said if her heart stops beating. So...... if they took her off the ventilator and everything stopped...........................................................

I agree, but somewhere deep down they have to know since they won't authorize the removal of the vent.

 

[ronandannette]

She is most likely receiving IV nutrition. We can sustain good cell health with total IV nutrition, but eventually bad things happen to organs. But I am also guessing she is on multiple drips of meds to keep her blood pressure from plumenting which will soon lead to a lot of bad happenings in her body.

Then what is the big deal about the feeding tube? Is the "alternate facility" possibly only requiring it because they know the hospital won't insert one and thereby appearing to be the good guys?

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

Then what is the big deal about the feeding tube? Is the "alternate facility" possibly only requiring it because they know the hospital won't insert one and thereby appearing to be the good guys?

About putting it in? Because it's surgery and there isn't a hospital/ doctor around who will perform surgery on a dead person (sorry to be so crass). And no, any long term care/rehab facility requires a long term feeding tube placed in the stomach because that is what they are licensed to care for. As for now though, it doesn't sound like there is an actual facility willing to take her.

 

[nicolita3]

Then what is the big deal about the feeding tube? Is the "alternate facility" possibly only requiring it because they know the hospital won't insert one and thereby appearing to be the good guys?

IV nutrition such as tpn is really expensive, like $1000.00 a bag. So if the family isn't able to pay the facility won't want them. The feeding tube formula is much cheaper.

 

[bittybabygrower]

She would be receiving IV fluids. The cap may be on medical but there other things they can get money for.

 

[twinboysmom]

For those asking about nutrition/hydration, she would be receiving hydration via iv for certain. As for nutrition, she could be receiving tpn which is through a centrally inserted iv access or she is receiving liquid nutrition (similar to ensure) via a small feeding tube via her nose or her mouth.

As to why an accepting transfer facility would require a trach and permanent feeding tube, oral intubation (ventilator tube) is temporary and after around a month the tissue starts breaking down. A trach is a long term airway. The small feeding tubes via nose or mouth are similar and not meant for temporary feeding. A permanent tube in the abdomen is needed.

Tried to keep it in easy terms. Hope that helps some.

 

[dakcp2001]

this is a sad, tragic situation. on the subject of lawyers fronting money though-California enacted a law in 1975 that capped 'pain and suffering' damages in medical malpractice cases to a maximum of $250,000. since a child is not employed there's no avenue for economic loss, and since (in this case) the child has already been declared dead with a death certificate issued it would be an uphill battle to be awarded on-going medical expenses. I have to wonder how their insurance will handle this situation (private or state funded, it generally ceases on the day of death as noted on the death certificate). in any case I suspect the only ones who would make any money would be the lawyers.


I'm curious-for those on this thread that are in the medical field. if this little girl was put on the vent 12/9 and subsequently declared dead on 12/12, does this mean she's been without a feeding tube and/or hydration this whole time (just shy of 3 full weeks)?

She would be getting iv nutrition and hydration. She s probably also on multiple drips to maintain her blood pressure Eric. Her veins are probably close to spent.

 

[ronandannette]

For those asking about nutrition/hydration, she would be receiving hydration via iv for certain. As for nutrition, she could be receiving tpn which is through a centrally inserted iv access or she is receiving liquid nutrition (similar to ensure) via a small feeding tube via her nose or her mouth.

As to why an accepting transfer facility would require a trach and permanent feeding tube, oral intubation (ventilator tube) is temporary and after around a month the tissue starts breaking down. A trach is a long term airway. The small feeding tubes via nose or mouth are similar and not meant for temporary feeding. A permanent tube in the abdomen is needed.

Tried to keep it in easy terms. Hope that helps some.

Good clarity...thank you.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

It is impossible to answer specific questions since none of us are there. Her care depends on the policies of the facility and the practices of those involved in her particular case. We can only speak from our own experiences, and those might be different depending on a lot of factors.

I would tend to doubt they are giving her nutrition since they are operating on the premise that she is dead. Why would they feed someone who's dead? They are likely giving her IV fluids as a supportive measure while they wait for the family to make arrangements for alternative care. Feeding would also set the precedent that they think there's something to feed her for, which they don't. IMO a court wouldn't have to rule against a feeding tube because they wouldn't be expected to put one into someone dead in the first place. In fact, doing so would be considered "extraordinary". It just doesn't make sense from their perspective.

My heart aches for this family; or any family who loses a child. I cannot imagine the depth of anger and despair they're feeling. They, however, are trying to garner sympathy for their cause, which I guess I can't blame them for, and they're making the hospital folks out to be negligent and cold-hearted. We don't know what happened that day. The hospital wants to explain, but can't. I'm not going to write it off as negligence as quickly as others may. The big issue is whether policies were followed. Sometimes bad things happen even when they are. Sometimes there are circumstances which can't be helped. We just don't know. If that's not the case and negligence was involved, I hope they get to the bottom of it so that systems can be fixed or appropriate people held accountable. But that can't be known without a thorough review of the records. Today most equipment is electronic, so falsifying information is unlikely. It should be easy enough to follow an electronic trail of what happened, i.e. what time the doctor was paged, when she went into cardiac arrest, etc.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

My understanding is that the court was not deciding on the feeding tube. They will not force that. They were only extending the time the family had to find alternate care, which is tomorrow at 5. The family has the right to appeal, but without a care facility willing to take her nor a doctor to place the permanent items, that is unlikely to go anywhere. Per the court order, the hospital may remove the ventilator tomorrow at 5pm unless the family appeals.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Clock is ticking for Jahi McMath amid uncertainty
Updated 5:03 pm, Sunday, December 29, 2013

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/No-medical-center-lined-up-for-Jahi-McMath-s-body-5100141.php

(12-29) 17:01 PST -- Children's Hospital Oakland officials confirmed Sunday they will turn off the machines sustaining Jahi McMath's body as soon as a legal injunction expires at 5 p.m. Monday unless otherwise ordered by a court.

"Barring any other court-order legal action by the family, the ventilator will be shut off at 5 p.m. tomorrow," said hospital spokesman Sam Singer. "It's tremendously sad, but that's what's going to occur."

The 13-year-old suffered complications and cardiac arrest following tonsil-removal surgery for sleep apnea on Dec. 9. Hospital doctors declared her dead on Dec. 12, although she remained connected to a respirator.

Her family believes Jahi is still alive and has sought another medical facility to take the girl.

"Children's Hospital Oakland continues to support the family of Jahi McMath in this time of grief and loss over her death," the hospital said in a statement Sunday. "We continue to do so despite their lawyer's criticizing the very hospital that all along has been working hard to be accommodating to this grieving family."

Children's lawyer Douglas Straus said in a letter to Dolan on Sunday that the hospital has required three conditions to transfer Jahi, including assurance the new facility "understands the current condition of the dead body and what is being done to maintain it under Judge Grillo's temporary restraining order"; there is lawful transportation of the body; and authorization from the coroner to transfer the body.

"The family has not identified any facility with which Children's can have this dialogue," Straus wrote. "Nor have we been provided with a transportation plan or coroner authorization."

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I mentionned this earlier:

Religion and End-of-Life Care

Personal preferences about end-of-life treatment are strongly related to religious affiliation as well as race and ethnicity.

For example, most white mainline Protestants (72%), white Catholics (65%) and white evangelical Protestants (62%) say they would stop their medical treatment if they had an incurable disease and were suffering a great deal of pain. (See the chart in Personal Wishes section below.)

By contrast, most black Protestants (61%) and 57% of Hispanic Catholics say they would tell their doctors to do everything possible to save their lives in the same circumstances. On balance, blacks and Hispanics are less likely than whites to say they would halt medical treatment if they faced these kinds of situations.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/11/21/views-on-end-of-life-medical-treatments/