12 Hollywood Studios Rumors (A Disney Rumors video is on pg. 1) and (an update is on pg. 16)

[lockedoutlogic]

1) Longer stays on property
2) More guests
3) And the holy grail - More guest spend per person

I'm not do sure we disagree much at all...

1. We agree, and had been long known and documented
2. We really don't differ here much either. But...big but...you have to realize that Disney doesn't control this really at all. If you look at their attendance since AK opened...the increases have been tied almost directly to world and US economic conditions. They were able to push the average stay number to the limits, but ever since it is largely is a function of how people feel...especially in foreign markets. Everybody knows what's in the swamp...they go if they feel like things are "good" in proportion.

3. It's a tough one. Obviously that's the goal...but their strategy is flawed. They cut corners on quality and variety for 15 years...while wanting more revenue...that's a dangerous approach. The magic bands were referred to the other day as "an investment to revolutionize the theme park experience". Really? Cause i actually really like them...but they are nothing of the sort. They're just an elaborate tracking tag and POS device. A visa with a GPS on it. That's what it is...so if they really get alot more spending based on the bands - more power to them...cause it really shouldn't work. (Also...the naysayers on the bands - which I wasn't really - were correct. It really is just an elaborate scheduling device...they made it out as some kind of amazing interactive/personalization tool that everyone would love...they lied)

The hard ticket events may be the Waterloo moment for the top notch reputation of wdw. Because it is just up selling the same stuff at
High price. And I don't trust that they can control themselves....
It's easy money and 100% dangerous to the property longterm when it gets really out of hand.

Like giving the ring to Sauron.

 

[skier_pete]

The hard ticket events may be the Waterloo moment for the top notch reputation of wdw. Because it is just up selling the same stuff at
High price. And I don't trust that they can control themselves....
It's easy money and 100% dangerous to the property longterm when it gets really out of hand.

Like giving the ring to Sauron.

Gosh. we are agreeing more and more - am I getting more cynical, or are you getting less. Yes, the # of people coming is on a large part based on the economy. The only way to give this a jolt is to have something that's so *can't miss* that leads to a boost. That boost is more than likely a short-term response (2-5 years at most) but Universal did this with Harry Potter. Ironically though - it doesn't seem that adding MORE Harry Potter did it a second time. As Walt said "You can't top pigs with pigs."

But this is why, if a true "Star Wars Land" experience were to be opened to the studios, I think you COULD drive people that might not otherwise come. And cause that boost. How much of a boost? Not a lot, but wouldn't even a 2 % increase be massive in Disney's case?

The hard ticket events are terrible IMHO, but unfortunately they continue to see success with them. They open up a hard ticket event WITHIN a hard ticket event, and they have people lining up for them. 10 years ago there were a dozen Halloween nights at $30-$35 a person. In ten years they've doubled the number of parties, and doubled the price - by my calculations a 400% increase in revenue...yet people can't get enough. I personally go to these events and feel ripped off to my core. So I stop going to them. They are not so omnipresent that you can't avoid them. But now with hard ticket events this year at all 4 parks, who knows where it goes from here. (Though was the Villians Unleashed a success or failure - because it sure sounded like a disaster, even though they oversold it, so its unlikely its going away.)

But if I don't like something they do, I don't buy it. I'm done with the hard ticket events. I went 2 for 2 in having a lousy time at them (not all through Disney's fault - but somewhat) Disney can get there money from other people. We have a great time every trip without them.

 

[dave disney]

think about it! disney needes to beef up one of there other parks (not magic kingdom) they need to be like disneyland & california adventures. those two parks probable have as many rides as all four disney world parks have together. look at universal two parks chuck full of rides and more to come. please disney give us more thrill rides!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You forgot about the special Star Wars studio in WDI run by Scott Trowbridge.

Not at all...

It was "announced" in April of 2014...which means at Disney's pace they haven't even gotten the water cooler up yet.

Second...there are alot of gates with "Disney" written above them at this point...

So I'll give you my list of priorities as far as park development goes:

1. Shanghai (they've invested billions)
2. Studios paris (bad park with huge debt...and very large European market of Star Wars fans that won't get caught up complaining about boy/girl balance)
3. Disneyland/DCA (corporate showpiece for analysts and big wigs...down the street from studios and imagineering. Disneyland is never lower than #3 on any list under Iger)
4. Japan (cause they pack the place, they want it, they bring their check book, and Disney pays for practically nothing)
5. Hong Kong (another bad park like studios Paris and DCA that needs more and continued development for the conceivable future)
6. In the "catbirds seat"....MGM and mk at wdw (huge cashcow/kitty complex that has suffered no ill effects from a change of focus/reduction in capital additions since the opening of DAK. As always...can't claim they "need" more Star Wars...cause WE...the customers...are stupid)

I have no doubt right now that there is a stormtrooper division of artists and engineers working on Star Wars stuff out in Cali...
But where's it going.

When Iger says "stuff is coming" in investor calls...you should believe him 100%

Problem is he Didnt say anything.

They've had kinda a dumpy little park with alot of potential on echo lake for 25 years...but never had anything other than a limited/peace meal approach to strengthening it.
One of the big questions I've had regarding all things Disney is: why?

 

[rteetz]

Not at all... It was "announced" in April of 2014...which means at Disney's pace they haven't even gotten the water cooler up yet. Second...there are alot of gates with "Disney" written above them at this point... So I'll give you my list of priorities as far as park development goes: 1. Shanghai (they've invested billions) 2. Studios paris (bad park with huge debt...and very large European market of Star Wars fans that won't get caught up complaining about boy/girl balance) 3. Disneyland/DCA (corporate showpiece for analysts and big wigs...down the street from studios and imagineering. Disneyland is never lower than #3 on any list under Iger) 4. Japan (cause they pack the place, they want it, they bring their check book, and Disney pays for practically nothing) 5. Hong Kong (another bad park like studios Paris and DCA that needs more and continued development for the conceivable future) 6. In the "catbirds seat"....MGM and mk at wdw (huge cashcow/kitty complex that has suffered no ill effects from a change of focus/reduction in capital additions since the opening of DAK. As always...can't claim they "need" more Star Wars...cause WE...the customers...are stupid) I have no doubt right now that there is a stormtrooper division of artists and engineers working on Star Wars stuff out in Cali... But where's it going. When Iger says "stuff is coming" in investor calls...you should believe him 100% Problem is he Didnt say anything. They've had kinda a dumpy little park with alot of potential on echo lake for 25 years...but never had anything other than a limited/peace meal approach to strengthening it. One of the big questions I've had regarding all things Disney is: why?

Oh i agree especially with DLP that place has many problems. If you look what I just posted on the news thread Micechat says a lot is coming to Disneyland plus it's the 60th anniversary so that makes sense. Shanghai is seeing massive problems I guess and is delayed massively will open sometime in 2016 rather than 2015. DHS will get something it's just when where and what. Where we are kind of getting an idea by the way they keep closing things.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Yeah, these are my thoughts as well (posted similar thoughts a few times here, most recently in the News Update thread on 9/19), and just makes sense.

LucasFilm -
Echo Lake construction into Star Wars attraction
Hollywood & Vine theme change to a Star Wars restaurant
Sounds Dangerous changed into Master Yoda's Jedi Training Academy
Backlot Express changed into Mos Eisley Cantina

Muppet Studios
Pizza Planet changed to house a Muppets dark ride
Mama Melrose's changed to Swedish Chef's Kitchen

Pixar Place expands to Backlot/LMA areas

Walt Disney Animation Studios
Animator's Palate added in the Magic of Disney Animation area
Voyage of Little Mermaid switched to Tangled

Hollywood/Sunset
TGMR updated

You know what they say, great minds think alike. I particularly like your ideas for the Swedish Chef's Kitchen and the Animator's Palate. In the (theoretical) Disney Animation Studios land I'd love to see a Wreck-it-Ralph attraction. My hope is that any Pixar Place they do becomes a true mish-mash of Pixar movies, not just an expanded Toy Story Place. I'd like the parks to have a better presence of Monster's Inc., Ratatouille, The Incredibles, WALL-E, and Up. (Although, I think the last two fit better in Animal Kingdom but this isn't the thread for my ramblings about what I'd do with DAK if I was the decision maker. Lol.) My creative juices stop flowing once we get into Star Wars territory, though -- I've never seen those movies.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Pete,

I do disagree that they can even pull off anything that is "can't miss" to bring in more people.

Because the world and particularly domestic economies have changed and they have shot themselves in the foot with pricing.

If people can afford it...they go to Disney world. Because economic flexibility is non-existent (something that has started to get gobs of attention)
Mom and dad aren't holding out. They go...if they can't afford it...they're not going. That's just the new reality

Disney knows this...they spent 20 years developing the repeat customer. Nobody from New Jersey isn't going their 2 or 3 times a year. You can trust me on that.

And those Brazilian tour groups are coming no matter what's in the parks. It's about their economy.

Good luck finding a hotel room on a weekend between now and 11/15.
Why? Because its food and wine...and friends in Florida...completely 180 degrees opposite to the Disneyland locals market...are coming no matter if the place (or the festival for that matter) is stale.

Notice the RunDisney schedule? Growing to mammoth proportions...and it sells like popcorn at a movie theater.

My point is that Disney is already putting in "can't miss" things to drive travel...it has nothing to do
With construction.

What happened at universal over the last few years with all that new stuff? Did they build something that a significant number of people deemed can't miss and planned a
Trip?

No...they siphoned off more days and side
Trips from the mouse...lets be honest.
Probably more so than was ever expected in LBV. Credit Comcast for being aggressive.

But the amount of trips planned Just for universals additions or a rejection of Disney Is realistically a handful in a hundred - statistically insignificant.

So what again is the motivation to spend a billion on ride construction included in the ticket prices when people will buy the limited overhead hard ticket crap?

The customers are serving the wrong masters...me too...and that ball is rolling down the hill.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Yeah, these are my thoughts as well (posted similar thoughts a few times here, most recently in the News Update thread on 9/19), and just makes sense.

LucasFilm -
Echo Lake construction into Star Wars attraction
Hollywood & Vine theme change to a Star Wars restaurant
Sounds Dangerous changed into Master Yoda's Jedi Training Academy
Backlot Express changed into Mos Eisley Cantina

Muppet Studios
Pizza Planet changed to house a Muppets dark ride
Mama Melrose's changed to Swedish Chef's Kitchen

Pixar Place expands to Backlot/LMA areas

Walt Disney Animation Studios
Animator's Palate added in the Magic of Disney Animation area
Voyage of Little Mermaid switched to Tangled

Hollywood/Sunset
TGMR updated

I agree that all of what you described are reasonable idea/goals. (Except for pizza planet converting to a ride...don't think building is suitable)

The problem...as I always tend to sniff out...is while it would make a very different looking park...it doesn't little to add much under the "base ticket" perspective.
And what would be "added" would be on the cheap...while adding lots of food for fee and inevitable obnoxious giftshops.

It would also kid/baby down the park. All restaurants a character rip off experience.

Don't get me wrong...i'd take it. No question...
But the better plan would include at least one E ticket and a handful of B-D offerings.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

People need to temper their expectations when it comes to new additions...

They bought Star Wars and marvel and Pixar - we know...but that largely IS the Investment.

Not the case in their other markets... But definitely Orlando.

The key statistic in Orlando is average length of stay...and unfortunately that hit the wall when DAK opened.

In the 80's and 90's, there was more travel to be gleaned from the average visitor... Which means rides = more money.

That changed in 98 and hasn't and hasn't changed since.
That's why they could get away with taking river country, discovery island, and pleasure island offline and suffer no Ill will... And why they can constantly add timeshares with guaranteed occupancy.

Like craps..."7" is the magic number... Once they got to it, large scale investment doesn't make financial sense. Your just moving the pieces around the board at that point...not adding players into the game.

America has defeated the plans of the TWDC... Because we still...stupidly... Just don't put enough value/emphasis on recreation or vacations. That's why we're all "skinny" and " happy".

In many ways... It's the real story of eisners late years... The formula that had worked great for him 84-95 didnt work after... The downward spiral. Building wdw was a big part of that.

So what we've seen is normal "inflation" of crowds...not jumps that indicate new travel patterns.

That means that big improvements to studios, animal kingdom, EPCOT aren't going to yield large "new" crowds.

While a redo of a largely third party downtown...and to those of us that believe that Cameron is paying at least part of the avatar construction...makes more sense. Limited risk/investment.

All this talk of a near complete redo of studios is setting yourself up for disappointment. I don't think they need to and they don't view universals as much of a threat....still.

An expansion of midway mania - a glorified, low tech C ticket, and some type of Pixar addins/ clones still seem about right.

Radiator springs doesn't fit Florida...weather and ride capacity make it impractical.

I agree with what you're saying here -- People are tied to their limited vacation days and at a certain point (we've reached it) large expansions aren't going to increase length of stay. With that in mind, it looks like WDW is as large as it's ever going to get. But, what about simple population growth? If X% of the population travels to Disney, and the population is continuing to grow, then doesn't it seem like Disney will have to expand at some point to accommodate? Even if length of stay remains the same there may come a point where large expansions, or even a fifth gate, would be warranted for capacity issues. Or, I suppose they could stay in the same footprint and jack up the prices so sky high that then only Y% of the population travels to Disney, boosting revenue without having to invest. Yeah, I guess that's the more likely scenario. Thoughts?

 

[Dfan79]

Even if length of stay remains the same there may come a point where large expansions, or even a fifth gate, would be warranted for capacity issues. Or, I suppose they could stay in the same footprint and jack up the prices so sky high that then only Y% of the population travels to Disney, boosting revenue without having to invest. Yeah, I guess that's the more likely scenario. Thoughts?

I agree, expansion is necessary in each of the parks. Especially at Hollywood because of its size. It's way too small to have everyone clustered in one area. People will get annoyed by the crowds and not want to even go to that park.

Plus if there is more to do people may decide to book an all Disney trip instead of a Dis/Uni trip.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I agree, expansion is necessary in each of the parks. Especially at Hollywood because of its size. It's way too small to have everyone clustered in one area. People will get annoyed by the crowds and not want to even go to that park.

Plus if there is more to do people may decide to book an all Disney trip instead of a Dis/Uni trip.

I think you read that wrong...

What was said is the "eventually" normal statistical increase may warrant additional capacity. Not as it currently stands.

Disney parks are not "crowded" in the aggregate. We go over this all the time. But the reality is that while a layman may base " crowded" on the busiest 100-120 days of the calendar...they look at the operational burden over 365. They have worked on "fanning the crowds" out to the less crowds periods for now decades to keep Increasing paying customers while not causing more stress.

We've seen dozens of examples: free dining, the festivals at EPCOT, events at downtown, Star Wars weekends, not so scarys and very merrys, wide world of sports events, run Disney.

The reality now is that studios is the lowest on the food chain in needing an attendance boost, because its the smallest by alot and the other three have much higher operational costs.
Particularly EPCOT and animal kingdom... Which are high overhead and about 5 million visitors a year below what Disney would call "adequate usage"

They certainly could build out studios and get larger crowds... But financially and logistically it doesn't make alot of sense.
Especially after Disney springs.

Studios is cramped because its built small and they put the two best rides built in the last 20 years over there...
But realistically...they don't care.

 

[Dfan79]

I think you read that wrong...

What was said is the "eventually" normal statistical increase may warrant additional capacity. Not as it currently stands.

Disney parks are not "crowded" in the aggregate. We go move this all the time. But the reality is that while a layman may base " crowded" on the busiest 100-120 days of the calendar...they look at the operational burden over 365. They have worked on "fanning the crowds" out to the less crowds periods for now decades to keep Increasing paying customers while not causing more stead.

We've seen dozens of examples: free dining, the festivals at EPCOT, events at downtown, Star Wars weekends, not so scarys and very merrys, wide world of sports events, run Disney.

The reality now is that studios is the lowest on the food chain in needing an attendance boost, because its the smallest by alot and the other three have much higher operational costs.
Particularly EPCOT and animal kingdom... Which are high overhead and about 5 million visitors a year below what Disney would call "adequate usage"

They certainly could build out studios and get larger crowds... But financially and logistically it doesn't make alot of sense.
Especially after Disney springs.

Studios is cramped because its built small and they put the two best rides built in the last 20 years over there...
But realistically...they don't care.

Nope, it's getting more and more crowded on the right side. You are wrong if you think it doesn't need to be expanded.

Hollywood needs to be expanded to help not only its crowds, but the other parks as well. They've only got 2 great rides in the whole place. The rest of Hollywood Studios is mostly shows and ok rides. There's a reason why Great Movie Ride is on tier 1. It's because they don't have enough great rides.

 

[mvk]

I agree that all of what you described are reasonable idea/goals. (Except for pizza planet converting to a ride...don't think building is suitable)

The problem...as I always tend to sniff out...is while it would make a very different looking park...it doesn't little to add much under the "base ticket" perspective.
And what would be "added" would be on the cheap...while adding lots of food for fee and inevitable obnoxious giftshops.

It would also kid/baby down the park. All restaurants a character rip off experience.

Don't get me wrong...i'd take it. No question...
But the better plan would include at least one E ticket and a handful of B-D offerings.

Honestly, the park could use a little kid/baby-ing down. Not talking complete overhaul into fantasyland, but 3 of the big 5 attractions they have (ToT, RnRC, Star Tours) has a height limit. Only TGMR and TSMM do not, other than the stage shows. I love the stage & 3D shows though, and having them really enhances the experience of not only DHS but also AK and MK (thinking Mickeys PhilharMagic, Country Bear, Monsters Inc, etc).

I think a Star Wars E-ticket would fill the bill, along with a secondary attraction (maybe a spinner in a park that doesn't have one).

As for the Pizza Planet thing, I was thinking a two story omni-mover dark ride would work well in that building.

Then for Pixar, a Monsters Inc Ride and Go Seek type attraction, maybe some sort of Cars dark ride, and another thing or two. I'd take out the Jack Sparrow thing and replace it with some sort of Incredibles walk-through adventure if possible.

I'd also like to see them take the Streets of America section that backs up against Sci-Fi Dine In, enclose it, and make it some sort of NYC Original Pizza Parlor where authentic pizza is made. Then take an area on San Francisco Avenue and make it an Asian noodle QS spot.

That gives you an E-ticket, a few B-D tickets, and a couple QS eateries in an area that needs to be used to draw crowds away from other areas.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I agree with what you're saying here -- People are tied to their limited vacation days and at a certain point (we've reached it) large expansions aren't going to increase length of stay. With that in mind, it looks like WDW is as large as it's ever going to get. But, what about simple population growth? If X% of the population travels to Disney, and the population is continuing to grow, then doesn't it seem like Disney will have to expand at some point to accommodate? Even if length of stay remains the same there may come a point where large expansions, or even a fifth gate, would be warranted for capacity issues. Or, I suppose they could stay in the same footprint and jack up the prices so sky high that then only Y% of the population travels to Disney, boosting revenue without having to invest. Yeah, I guess that's the more likely scenario. Thoughts?

Excellent excellent.

Very perceptive throughout the post.

When Disney world was announced...a purchase of 27,000 acres on a sleepy day in 1964...the average family vacation was camping within an hours drive of your house...or the beach if you're coastal. People didnt fly.

The travel expansion in the 70s-90s drove wdw...
As an east coaster...I always use myrtle beach from 70-90 and Florida from 80-2000 to illustrate the point.

But that explosion has ebbed...and as you pointed out...normal population growth is trending along the same lines as wdw "growth". It's not really growth at all to address. Which means they can wait.
Access to US travel to foreign markets has increased as well...a smaller piece of the puzzle but still a significant one.

And bingo in the second point...they are already looking to "increase the y"

Many advantages for them on that. The easy one is you can make more with less people...cutting overhead and drain on profit.

Second is it drives longterm arrangements to lock people in...yep...welcome to vacation club. In turn locking them (or us) into longterm ancillary cost commitments. Profit guaranteed.

Third, higher prices bring higher earning travelers. Pretty simple.

We've seen these tactics already. I admit that I hadn't followed hotel prices for years (my former wheelhouse) and there is a sacrifice of occupancy for higher rates going on. They adjust discounts accordingly to meet their projections. Some brilliantly called it "kohls pricing". Set the bar high and give the minimum amount of discount you have to...adjusting in real time.

Escalation of restaurant prices across the board.

Massive Ticket increases For 10 years

And the "exclusive tours"'and hard ticket up sells.

"Your time is valuable...buy the ultimate thrill seekers tour for $299"

 

[wallrock]

One should not assume that the increased population will be able to afford a Disney vacation.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Nope, it's getting more and more crowded on the right side. You are wrong if you think it doesn't need to be expanded.

Hollywood needs to be expanded to help not only its crowds, but the other parks as well. They've only got 2 great rides in the whole place. The rest of Hollywood Studios is mostly shows and ok rides. There's a reason why Great Movie Ride is on tier 1. It's because they don't have enough great rides.

When you going?

Because if your talking about 90 minute waits for three rides in the right side of the park during spring break...they don't honestly care.

It's about guaranteed profit...and they have unfortunately figured out that can be achieved by NOT necessarily giving the customer what it wants.

They don't want you in studios at night... They want you at downtown Disney. Secondly they want you in EPCOT, third at magic kingdom.

WDW's park capacity is much higher than their annual attendance. Realistically probably 50%.
They're only close to full a handful of days...otherwise it's not overtaxed.

If you want new rides... Start bombarding the research people with this line:

"I wanted to shop more...but the lines were just too long and I didnt have time.
Oh well...maybe on my next trip in 10 years"

That...will get you what you want. That or a 100% increase in attendance at UOR.

Not much else.
Wdw is not about the rides...it never was and that philosophy has gotten stronger since Eisner was booted and roy e Disney died.
Fact.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Honestly, the park could use a little kid/baby-ing down. Not talking complete overhaul into fantasyland, but 3 of the big 5 attractions they have (ToT, RnRC, Star Tours) has a height limit. Only TGMR and TSMM do not, other than the stage shows. I love the stage & 3D shows though, and having them really enhances the experience of not only DHS but also AK and MK (thinking Mickeys PhilharMagic, Country Bear, Monsters Inc, etc).

I think a Star Wars E-ticket would fill the bill, along with a secondary attraction (maybe a spinner in a park that doesn't have one).

As for the Pizza Planet thing, I was thinking a two story omni-mover dark ride would work well in that building.

Then for Pixar, a Monsters Inc Ride and Go Seek type attraction, maybe some sort of Cars dark ride, and another thing or two. I'd take out the Jack Sparrow thing and replace it with some sort of Incredibles walk-through adventure if possible.

I'd also like to see them take the Streets of America section that backs up against Sci-Fi Dine In, enclose it, and make it some sort of NYC Original Pizza Parlor where authentic pizza is made. Then take an area on San Francisco Avenue and make it an Asian noodle QS spot.

That gives you an E-ticket, a few B-D tickets, and a couple QS eateries in an area that needs to be used to draw crowds away from other areas.

I agree 100%. Including the need for more kid friendly and QS.

I think what were saying is that the current park is lacking on almost all fronts... A common complaint since about 1999.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

One should not assume that the increased population will be able to afford a Disney vacation.

I know "somebody" who 100% agree with you.

The United States department of labor.


(And the moron currently typing)

 

[mvk]

One should not assume that the increased population will be able to afford a Disney vacation.

Eh, you can spend a week at Disney for about $4500, which is the average amount spent on vacations in this country. Would be less if you live within driving distance.

You won't be staying at the Poly or Contemporary, but you can be there and do everything for that amount.

I really don't see any reason to expect it will become unaffordable in the future. The economy may ebb and flow, but that really hasn't affected travel to Disney in the past.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Eh, you can spend a week at Disney for about $4500, which is the average amount spent on vacations in this country. Would be less if you live within driving distance.

You won't be staying at the Poly or Contemporary, but you can be there and do everything for that amount.

I really don't see any reason to expect it will become unaffordable in the future. The economy may ebb and flow, but that really hasn't affected travel to Disney in the past.

Purchasing power in the US Is on the decline in aggregate...while costs are on a sharp rise for many things.

A family of four, staying at Pop century, can do a trip for that number... But it's tight.

It also doesn't take into account the airlines new cutthroat pricing and any out of pocket... It's tough.

And...the reality is that mom and dads paycheck relative to inflation had been dropping since 1968.

What am I saying?

The destruction of the middle class is real and will hurt wdw longterm.

There's alot of money to be spent there...but it won't be from as many wallets.