$10- too cheap for resort rooms!!

[Dean]

Originally posted by jaysue
Dean and Maistre Gracey, I am wondering how much our costs are driven up by people who constantly make ressies and then move/cancel them

Any ideas how much of our dues are driven by our MS costs?

Thanks
jaysue

My guess is little but I think this is far more a problem in the regular membership than with renting. Again, it's the way the system is set up. Does anyone want to have a cancellation fee?

 

[GAIL HAYDEN]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
It will make it easier to have this exact same conversation in about 4-6 weeks, cause that seems to be about how long it takes for the "$10.00 pp" thread to recycle.

LOL, excellent point!!!!!!!!!

 

[disneycrazed139]

I've seen e-bay listings for OKW, and they really don't seem to be going for too much more than the boards at all. I'm sure there are a handful who are trying to make money, but I've seen listings that led me to believe that the people renting on e-bay didn't know about this board. They may just be setting the price at what they think is a fair price based on what someone might have to pay rack rate or otherwise.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Maistre Gracey
Dean, we will have to agree to disagree on a couple of points made in this thread. I don't think there is imminent danger of changing each others mind.

To answer your last question, yes, I also feel it is a stretch when you look at the whole DVC system. However, it may not be a huge stretch when talking about a GV, or beach cottage during busy season.

Likely. To me it is a black/white YES/NO issue. How it affects me personally or you is of no direct consequence to the discussion.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Originally posted by Dean
Likely. To me it is a black/white YES/NO issue. How it affects me personally or you is of no direct consequence to the discussion.

Perhaps I am not understanding what you mean by this statement.
In my opinion, how this affects DVC members is the whole reason for this discussion.

Anyway, you and I just are not going to agree on some issues. That is okay, as well as educational. I enjoy hearing the other opinions. I believe the only way someone can make a good decision, is to hear all the different views on the subject. Only then can someone make an informed decision...

 

[ripleysmom]

Dean, there may be some who have a problem with anyone renting but even the most vocal of the people who oppose renters will allow that renting sometimes needs to happen from time to time. It is also especially bothersome when rental units are removed from inventory without even having a prior rental. The unit is taken from availability on the off chance that the renter can fill the unit for that period of time.

I also disagree with your assertion about the 11 month window. It is true that every one has an equal chance at the 11 month window, however, what about those members who do not (or cannot) always make their arrangements at the 11 month window? Someone that perhaps could not make arrangements for that particular time period because of scheduling is effectively closed out because someone else came along and scarfed up the units available for that time period.

As Maistre Gracey said, we will just have to agree to disagree on this particular issue. As I said earlier, I have no problem with renting. I do, however, have a problem with using DVC as a commercial enterprise. I also have a problem with members attempting to fix the rental prices for points.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Maistre Gracey
Perhaps I am not understanding what you mean by this statement.
In my opinion, how this affects DVC members is the whole reason for this discussion.

Anyway, you and I just are not going to agree on some issues. That is okay, as well as educational. I enjoy hearing the other opinions. I believe the only way someone can make a good decision, is to hear all the different views on the subject. Only then can someone make an informed decision...

To me it's an issue of what the POS says and that makes it black of white. Anything else is simply how one feels about it, which is irrelevent to the facts of the sitatuion. How it affects membes may be important to you or me but is not germain to to the rules as they stand or the laws as they apply.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by ripleysmom
Dean, there may be some who have a problem with anyone renting but even the most vocal of the people who oppose renters will allow that renting sometimes needs to happen from time to time. It is also especially bothersome when rental units are removed from inventory without even having a prior rental. The unit is taken from availability on the off chance that the renter can fill the unit for that period of time.

I also disagree with your assertion about the 11 month window. It is true that every one has an equal chance at the 11 month window, however, what about those members who do not (or cannot) always make their arrangements at the 11 month window? Someone that perhaps could not make arrangements for that particular time period because of scheduling is effectively closed out because someone else came along and scarfed up the units available for that time period.

As Maistre Gracey said, we will just have to agree to disagree on this particular issue. As I said earlier, I have no problem with renting. I do, however, have a problem with using DVC as a commercial enterprise. I also have a problem with members attempting to fix the rental prices for points.

Everyone's situation is different but it is not the responsibility of the members or DVC to accomdate one's special situation beyond the written rules. When one can plan for whatever reason is that persons problem. While I may be sympathetic to the situation, I usually am, it does not give theem any special consideration for DVC. If one can plan until later, that is their problem and if all the rooms are gone by the time they can plan, so be it.

Some of the dapartments where I work can only ask off 2 months in advance. I think this is wrong but it's not my call. Should rooms be held for them, one is a DVC member.

As to the renter taking rooms out of inventory, it has no affect on the facts. If they take every one at 11 months out, the discussion is no different. That's the problem of a points system. I think some members are thinking with their heart rather than objectively in this situation else the "how it affects me" would not be part of the equataion. The real question is simply and only "what are the rules".

 

[Doctor P]

Dean,

Frankly I am surprised at your assertion that "how it affects me" isn't part of the equation. This is a condominium association, and the effect of members' behavior on other members is a supreme consideration as it is in any communal environment. Furthermore, with the elaborate telephone systems that are now available, a sophisticated commercial enterprise (of which I know with almost certainty of at least three who inhabit these boards after doing some investigation) could assure that they get first crack at the rooms at key seasons for rental as part of their enterprise (look at the controversy over CRT). To me, the analogy is with scalpers and ticket agencies circumventing ticket limits and scalping laws. I don't oppose renting per se, but have problems with the way some of this is increasingly playing out to the average member's detriment. The language in some of these people's ads clearly indicates they are running a commercial enterprise, and IMHO DVD needs to step in at some point and deal with this.

The system is broken--I'm hoping it will get fixed.

 

[Jen D]

I read over and over again in these discussions that the sins of the folks that rent their points out are

1) hoarding prime ressies at the 11 month window
2) Booking Sun-Thursday stays and screwing up the system.

As a reader of these boards, I have noticed these exact practices are normal for a huge number of DVC members who are making their reservations only for themselves. It is all within the rules and completely acceptable. I've never understood why some think the renters deserve these privleges less. Their member status is exactly the same as everyone elses and like everyone else, they are using their points as they wish. Doing only weekday stays is hardly confined to people renting out their points.

I guess I just have never seen a convincing argument about why renters hurt other members. They have the same booking rates as anyone else, no more, no less.

 

[HeatherPage]

I guess to try to state it simply, when I member reserves say five studios for NYE week to rent them out for a profit, some of us feel offended because if they were actually using it for their own enjoyment like most of us, they probably wouldn't need five studios at the same time. Sure, you could argue that some of us might reserve five studios at that time for family members and we can do this as we please, but if it is happening year after year for the same major holidays and such, then there is another agenda going on. Luckily, my son is not quite two, so we aren't ruled by the schools holiday schedule and I don't like mixing my major holidays with my vacations (tried Disney at Christmas one year, didn't care for it-I missed being at home for the holiday). But if I did decide I'd like to try for say NYE week one year but couldn't get a reservation because Joe Schmoe or whoever for the 4th year in a row is advertising prime reservations for the week for 4 or 5 different units, then I might be a littled peeved.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Doctor P
Dean,

Frankly I am surprised at your assertion that "how it affects me" isn't part of the equation. This is a condominium association, and the effect of members' behavior on other members is a supreme consideration as it is in any communal environment. Furthermore, with the elaborate telephone systems that are now available, a sophisticated commercial enterprise (of which I know with almost certainty of at least three who inhabit these boards after doing some investigation) could assure that they get first crack at the rooms at key seasons for rental as part of their enterprise (look at the controversy over CRT). To me, the analogy is with scalpers and ticket agencies circumventing ticket limits and scalping laws. I don't oppose renting per se, but have problems with the way some of this is increasingly playing out to the average member's detriment. The language in some of these people's ads clearly indicates they are running a commercial enterprise, and IMHO DVD needs to step in at some point and deal with this.

The system is broken--I'm hoping it will get fixed.

Doctor P, this is essentially an issue of situational ethics. The only issue is whether it's legal and within the rules. In this case it is both. Actually for DVC to prevent renting would be the illegal part because they couldn't do so unless they stopped all renting, including their own.

I'm not arguing that there are not practices that negatively affect the members. I think there are many including reserving Sun-Fri, booking then canceling late, Getting a larger unit when you need a smaller (esp GV) and I'm sure we could think of others. My point remains that this is the system and the legal issues and there are little or no ways to affect it. But this is the system we own in and if we can't live with it, we should get out and move on. If you think I'm cold when I say that that's tough when one can't plan their life 11 months out, or that the non owners at WLV should get the dumpster view or that it's OK if one gets all 7 GV at BWV for NYE and then rents them, so be it.

There are things DVC can do if they want to change some of these negative practices but I bet most of us do not want them. They could initiate cancellation fees. They could require minimums,even specific day combinations, they could make the home resort priority MORE than 4 months, they could come up with a group of the worst rooms and give them only to non members, they could initiate banking and borrowing fees or even elimiate these options all together.

And I do believe that in this discussion how one feels how another uses their points is none of your or my business and it’s an ABSOLUTE. Even if it does affect others negatively. Though I’m not convinced the issues we’re discussing has any real affect on the membership as a whole even in it’s worst case scenario.

As for the commercial issue. It’s very clear that DVC doesn’t care. I think it’s also equally clear that anything short of opening an office and putting up a billboard would not qualify under this phrase in the POS. I also sincerely doubt that it would be enforceable even at that from a renting standpoint. What Disney could do is act as the 600# Gorilla and block usage of copyright materials or just try to tie things up in court but that’s about it.

 

[Doctor P]

Well put, Dean.

 

[icydog]

What seems to be confusing is that these owners who rent have a perfect right to reserve any and all rooms they wish with "their" points. If they use them or rent them, or whatever, they would still be available to them at the 11 month window. Suppose they said they had family who needed 4 studios for NYE and then they rented them. It is still their points and they are calculated in the pool of points to be used at DVC any way they wish. I don't rent but i have a lot of points. What difference would it make to you if I spent midweek stays for the peak season say for 4 weeks. It is my allotment and I can do what I wish. I can use them or maybe even consider renting the points on ebay.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Originally posted by Dean

As for the commercial issue. It’s very clear that DVC doesn’t care. I think it’s also equally clear that anything short of opening an office and putting up a billboard would not qualify under this phrase in the POS....

Page 24 of the POS... in large font, and bold letters:

"Ownership Interests are offered for personal use and enjoyment only and should not be purchased by any prospective Purchaser for resale or as an investment opportunity or with any expectation of achieving rental income, capital appreciation, or any other financial return or valuable benefit, including any tax benefit...."

The paragraph continues by saying that renting would be tough because you would be competing with DVC etc...

The way I read the first several words ["Ownership Interests are offered for personal use and enjoyment only..."], that clearly trumps the remainder of the paragraph (which could be interpreted either way).
I admit, there are other parts of the POS that are in contradiction to this part of the paragraph.

My point is not whether or not renting points is legal, but rather that it is not "very clear" one way or the other... especially when doing it as a business.

In summary, I do believe there is a fine line between 'renting', and 'commercial renting'. The first could mean renting points to family/friends etc..., and the second means posting multiple weeks on e-bay.
To reiterate, I don't have a problem with the first, or the occasional renting due to unusual circumstances.
I also have more tollerance for someone renting points (commercially), than I do for someone hoarding weeks first, then renting the weeks.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Originally posted by icy-dog
What seems to be confusing is that these owners who rent have a perfect right to reserve any and all rooms they wish with "their" points. If they use them or rent them, or whatever, they would still be available to them at the 11 month window. Suppose they said they had family who needed 4 studios for NYE and then they rented them. It is still their points and they are calculated in the pool of points to be used at DVC any way they wish. I don't rent but i have a lot of points. What difference would it make to you if I spent midweek stays for the peak season say for 4 weeks. It is my allotment and I can do what I wish. I can use them or maybe even consider renting the points on ebay.

I can only speak for myself, but I have absolutely no problem with any member booking multiple prime weeks for themselves, family, or friends.
I only take issue with hoarding multiple prime weeks to rent on e-bay, or other similar type places.

 

[Doctor P]

I agree Maistre Gracey. Members who have rental websites boasting about the thousands of satisfied customers they have for vacations at DVC resorts seem to clearly be commercial renters on both the buy and sell side. On the other hand, it provides a ready market for those members who need to rent their points or find points to rent.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Maistre Gracey
Page 24 of the POS... in large font, and bold letters:

"Ownership Interests are offered for personal use and enjoyment only and should not be purchased by any prospective Purchaser for resale or as an investment opportunity or with any expectation of achieving rental income, capital appreciation, or any other financial return or valuable benefit, including any tax benefit...."

The paragraph continues by saying that renting would be tough because you would be competing with DVC etc...

The way I read the first several words ["Ownership Interests are offered for personal use and enjoyment only..."], that clearly trumps the remainder of the paragraph (which could be interpreted either way).
I admit, there are other parts of the POS that are in contradiction to this part of the paragraph.

My point is not whether or not renting points is legal, but rather that it is not "very clear" one way or the other... especially when doing it as a business.

In summary, I do believe there is a fine line between 'renting', and 'commercial renting'. The first could mean renting points to family/friends etc..., and the second means posting multiple weeks on e-bay.
To reiterate, I don't have a problem with the first, or the occasional renting due to unusual circumstances.
I also have more tollerance for someone renting points (commercially), than I do for someone hoarding weeks first, then renting the weeks.

This paragraph has nothing to do with DVC wanting to prevent renting. It's simply a certification that DVC has not presented DVC as a rental scenario. It is to protect DVC from people being told they can rent and make bucks then when they can't, being able to come back at DVC. This is in response to Timeshare history where it's a common practice for a timeshare company to promise one they can rent for big bucks and make money on the ownerhip. It has absolutely nothing to do with preventing one from renting.

Here's a similar discussion from TUG regarding Club Intrawest.

quote:
Originally posted by Gorillaboy:
... I have gone back to my original purhcase agreement and point #9 states:
"Purchaser represents the purchaser and has the legal capacity to enter into this agreement and that Purchaser is purchasing the Resort Points for the Purchaser's personal usage and enjoyment of personal recreational accommodation and not for investment potential, any possible rental returns, tax advantages. resale potential or any other monetary or financial advantages". This would seem to preclude any rental by Club Intrawest members...

You're misinterpreting this clause. Its sole purpose is to make it crystal-clear that a salesperson didn't hoodwink you into buying a timeahare interest with promises of "investment potential, any possible rental returns, tax advantages, resale potential or any other monetary or financial advantages." It doesn't say you can't rent out a unit, only that you acknowledge that you didn;t buy it exclusively because you believed it was a good investment, rental or otherwise.

------------------
Ed Bott

The only statement in the POS that even pertains to the member renting as we're disccussing it on the negative side is the commercial use one. It is vague, it is without defintion and it is unenforceable as long as Disney is renting.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

I admit that one could read this statement and interpret it differently, but again, it is far from clear that DVC has no problem with making renting a business.

Anyway, I am going to gracefully bow out of this thread, as there is nothing new for me to add. I am getting to the point where I am repeating myself, and my wife tells me I'm boring when I do that.

I do appreciate your views on this, but I will restate my earlier position of 'we must agree to disagree'.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Maistre Gracey
I admit that one could read this statement and interpret it differently, but again, it is far from clear that DVC has no problem with making renting a business.

Anyway, I am going to gracefully bow out of this thread, as there is nothing new for me to add. I am getting to the point where I am repeating myself, and my wife tells me I'm boring when I do that.

I do appreciate your views on this, but I will restate my earlier position of 'we must agree to disagree'.

If it's important to you, maybe you want to discuss it with the DVC higher ups. I have both in general terms and in relationship to the specific section above.