Why do we want the best test scores?

[Christine]

I guess you don't know what education was like in "my day." Kids in our current schools' AP and IB classes are routinely getting ACT scores over 30 and SAT over 2000, so the classes are just fine. And, since my son is enrolled and taking them, I know what the content is and it is just like mine was in the late 60's and 70's right down to the literature, plays, math, science(although we had real labs in all Bio and Chem while only the AP and IB classes have them now). Also, there was no Trig, just Calculus when I was in school, but the Calculus was laced with a little Trig. There were more basic math classes and general English classes for students who weren't planning on college. Those of us who were or just wanted to take interesting classes, took Shakespeare, Olde English, Poetry as Engllish classes rather than boring things like American Literature-Ben Franklin's writings are not near as interesting as Midsummer Night's Dream, or Beowulf and Canterbury Tales to most students. Some like Franklin but it's pretty dry and weird. Those are classes taught in college now. I was not in school in the 80's but it seems that from your anecdotal information, that(the 80's) must be when the dumbing down happened. In the early 70's, our standards were still high and children were expected to handle it. Of course, we didn't also have 7 extra cirricular activities going on causing our free/study time to disappear. Students did one or two outside activities and church on Sunday. We had time to study, hang with our friends, actually take walks and relax. There were not video games, no cable TV, no oxy, few girls were raising children and attending high school. I don't think the stress you speak of comes from academics pushed too much too soon. I think it comes from the social ills we have not figured out how to deal with successfully as a society. The academics were just as they are for honor students then as they are now. I am speaking of what's going on here.

Shortbun--I graduated high school in 1981. I can vouch to the bolded above. High school in the 1980s sucked. On top of that, I went to the bottom of the barrel high school. Foreign language was no longer a requirement (it was when my mom went in the 60s). I had no foreign language. My math stopped at Algebra 1. I didn't know a soul who went higher than that in math although I would imagine there were some classes that went higher than that, but they were the minority. I wasn't required to take a science after my sophomore year, so I stopped at Biology which was an absolute JOKE. Yes, I dissected a FROG. That was as sophisticated as it got. The only thing I took for 4 years was English. It was just ridiculous compared to what my kids take now. But when I talk to people who are 10-15 years older than me, their education seems like it was much more rigorous. Something happened in the late-70s/early 80s. At least where I lived. Oh, we had NO AP classes either but I have talked to other people my age who did have them.

 

[mhsjax]

Shortbun--I graduated high school in 1981. I can vouch to the bolded above. High school in the 1980s sucked. On top of that, I went to the bottom of the barrel high school. Foreign language was no longer a requirement (it was when my mom went in the 60s). I had no foreign language. My math stopped at Algebra 1. I didn't know a soul who went higher than that in math although I would imagine there were some classes that went higher than that, but they were the minority. I wasn't required to take a science after my sophomore year, so I stopped at Biology which was an absolute JOKE. Yes, I dissected a FROG. That was as sophisticated as it got. The only thing I took for 4 years was English. It was just ridiculous compared to what my kids take now. But when I talk to people who are 10-15 years older than me, their education seems like it was much more rigorous. Something happened in the late-70s/early 80s. At least where I lived. Oh, we had NO AP classes either but I have talked to other people my age who did have them.

I graduated in 1981. We had plenty of kids going higher than Algebra 1. In fact most kids started their high school career with geometry and went up from there. Maybe it depends on your school but we had many advanced classes. Foreign language wasn't required though.

 

[Christine]

I graduated in 1981. We had plenty of kids going higher than Algebra 1. In fact most kids started their high school career with geometry and went up from there. Maybe it depends on your school but we had many advanced classes. Foreign language wasn't required though.

Yes, I said that I definitely went to the worst of the worst schools. And it talking with other 1981-ish graduates from around the country, they definitely had higher level classes that my school did. However, I don't think I've run into too many people that had school systems as rigorous as Shortbun's. But I have talked with older people who have.

 

[Coconut36]

Shortbun--I graduated high school in 1981. I can vouch to the bolded above. High school in the 1980s sucked. On top of that, I went to the bottom of the barrel high school. Foreign language was no longer a requirement (it was when my mom went in the 60s). I had no foreign language. My math stopped at Algebra 1. I didn't know a soul who went higher than that in math although I would imagine there were some classes that went higher than that, but they were the minority. I wasn't required to take a science after my sophomore year, so I stopped at Biology which was an absolute JOKE. Yes, I dissected a FROG. That was as sophisticated as it got. The only thing I took for 4 years was English. It was just ridiculous compared to what my kids take now. But when I talk to people who are 10-15 years older than me, their education seems like it was much more rigorous. Something happened in the late-70s/early 80s. At least where I lived. Oh, we had NO AP classes either but I have talked to other people my age who did have them.

Math went higher than Algebra 1 for sure (incoming Freshman generally started with Algebra 1 and moved up from there), foreign language was never a requirement here (even in my parents day) but has been and is still offered in high school, we had Biology of varying levels, we had Wildlife Biology, Chemistry and so on. We had AP classes (my best friend was in almost all AP)..etc. If your school was bottom of the barrel then it is not shocking they lacked upper level classes, AP classes..etc as they probably didn't have the funding/interest to provide them..but to assume that because you had a sub par education that all education was "dumbed down" starting in that timeframe is highly inaccurate.

My education was no different than my parents education..both graduated/attended high school in my state so maybe where you are they made changes but my parents education and mine did not vary greatly.

 

[Cindy B]

I would definetely say that the 80's were a turning point in education. I graduated in 1988 from a very large (700 in my class) regional high school

At that time:
Foreign language wasn't required (I took it anyway)
Math was only two years required- Algebra wasn't required: You could take Business Math or Accounting and it was considered a math
Jr/Sr year English could be semester long "mini courses" on Public Speaking, American Short Story, Creative Writing, Creative Drama, etc.

My sister, who graduated before me, somehow graduated without taking any foreign language, no math ABOVE the level of Accounting II (no Algebra for her), limited Sciences and a lot of business electives.

I wish I had taken Chemistry or Physics. I wish I had challenged myself more.

 

[Coconut36]

I would definetely say that the 80's were a turning point in education. I graduated in 1988 from a very large (700 in my class) regional high school

At that time:
Foreign language wasn't required (I took it anyway)
Math was only two years required- Algebra wasn't required: You could take Business Math or Accounting and it was considered a math
Jr/Sr year English could be semester long "mini courses" on Public Speaking, American Short Story, Creative Writing, Creative Drama, etc.

My sister, who graduated before me, somehow graduated without taking any foreign language, no math ABOVE the level of Accounting II (no Algebra for her), limited Sciences and a lot of business electives.

I wish I had taken Chemistry or Physics. I wish I had challenged myself more.

That's the year my DH graduated and I know for certain that requirements here were greater than that. Minimum 3 years math and Accounting did not count as a math course. English was 4 years and was English..no variations or exceptions or alternative courses like public speaking (a separate elective).

 

[Christine]

That's the year my DH graduated and I know for certain that requirements here were greater than that. Minimum 3 years math and Accounting did not count as a math course. English was 4 years and was English..no variations or exceptions or alternative courses like public speaking (a separate elective).

My English courses were the same way. English for 4 years and it was straight-up English.

Math was quite a different story. You only had to take two years of it in high school. Many freshman came in taking Algebra 1 and the "best of the best" went on to Geometry. Regular freshman came into Algebra 1 but it was broken into two parts Algebra 1 Part 1 and Algebra 1 Part 2. Part 1 was 9th grade, Part 2 was 10th grade, and then math was satisfied. If you were a struggling math student, you took Business Math.

 

[Cindy B]

My English courses were the same way. English for 4 years and it was straight-up English.

Math was quite a different story. You only had to take two years of it in high school. Many freshman came in taking Algebra 1 and the "best of the best" went on to Geometry. Regular freshman came into Algebra 1 but it was broken into two parts Algebra 1 Part 1 and Algebra 1 Part 2. Part 1 was 9th grade, Part 2 was 10th grade, and then math was satisfied. If you were a struggling math student, you took Business Math.

That math set up sounded similar to my high school. If you struggled you took Business Math. I was considered a struggling student, so I took it and was BORED out of my mind. I did not have any algebra in my middle school, so I was worried that I wouldn't be able to contend with others so I took prealgebra and then Algebra I jr. year. Looking back I should have done Prealgebra 9th grade, Algebra I jr year and Algebra II/Geometry in jr. year.
Business math was a joke. I think the most challenging thing the class did was to completed 1040A, and 1040 EZ tax returns.

As a teacher, I am always challenging my students. I constantly hear complaints from my students "Ms . .. you doing too much". I then tell my students that I am preparing them for high school (6-8th graders). My district, (which I love) is a small district with limited options in terms of courses and electives. I tell them if I dont challenge them, I am not doing my job in preparing them for high school.

 

[shelly3girls]

I do think that we need to set our goals higher but I do not think it should be accomplished through pushing the kids faster or teaching to the test. I believe that in the US our schools lack talented math and science teachers. Although I know that there are some very talented teachers out there (DD13 has one who is amazing) many math teachers in middle schools do not have the knowledge and mastery to teach high school level math and yet they continue to teach it. Many of our advanced kids are not mastering Algebra and Geometry because they are being taught by unqualified teachers. We need to figure out a way to train and attract great teachers into our schools.

 

[cornflake]

See this is one of the big issues. The divide between schools. Either we need to let all parents choose where their kids go to school or make the schools more adaptable somehow to all kids.

My school had no APs. Trig was the highest level of math offered. No pre-calc, no foreign languages, etc. I was bored out of my mind. A school like what your children attend would be great. Dual enrollment was difficult in our school because of the shop classes (one week shop one week normal) shop was the only good thing about my school but it made it so you couldn't do a dual enrollment. Oh yeah and our local community college was just as much of a joke.

Maybe what the other countries have right is the tracks are not all in one school. They do have academic schools and schools for those that don't plan to go to college. Then the schools could be more specialized and really be able to meet the needs of the students that attend there. Of course we would have to get over the PC everyone is the same stuff to be willing to separate kids based on ability.

Can you not choose where your kid goes to school? As long as the school will take them, what's stopping you?

My high school required 3 years of math (algebra, geometry & trig, calc was optional), 4 years of science (bio, chem, physics, then AP bio or physics or both if you weren't doing a math), 4 of history/whatever, 4 of English, 3 of a living foreign language, 4 of Latin.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

Finland has (free for everybody) preschool, but does not do academics there--only social skills and building self reliance.

They do not start teaching reading until age 7.

They have fewer hours of school per year than just about anyone (averaging at 770 in highschool ages) and no more than half an hour of homework TOTAL per night.

Teachers are given VERY little in the way of requirements and can choose their own text and own manner of teaching.

Most school do not use grades at all in the early years and there is no nationwide testing (random samplings here and there and the PISA are it).

It is so totally and completely NOT what we do--and I am more and more blown away by it all the more I read today

Here are some other things to consider when evaluating the Finnish system:
-their society values education and literacy
-they read
-they place a high value on mathematical literacy
-they don't substitute mythology for science.

Americans don't read, don't value education, prefer mathematical illiteracy, and substitute mythology for science.

The Finnish willingly pay for a social safety net and see schools as a source of pride. Americans lament paying for education through taxes.

The Finnish system would never work here because we don't have the sensibilities and priorities that allow that system to succeed.

Can you not choose where your kid goes to school? As long as the school will take them, what's stopping you?

My high school required 3 years of math (algebra, geometry & trig, calc was optional), 4 years of science (bio, chem, physics, then AP bio or physics or both if you weren't doing a math), 4 of history/whatever, 4 of English, 3 of a living foreign language, 4 of Latin.

Recalling the recent thread about public schools and charter schools, most parents don't have a choice in where their children go to school. Choice requires resources that many, many don't have.

 

[jahber]

Here are some other things to consider when evaluating the Finnish system:
-their society values education and literacy
-they read
-they place a high value on mathematical literacy
-they don't substitute mythology for science.

Americans don't read, don't value education, prefer mathematical illiteracy, and substitute mythology for science.

The Finnish willingly pay for a social safety net and see schools as a source of pride. Americans lament paying for education through taxes.

The Finnish system would never work here because we don't have the sensibilities and priorities that allow that system to succeed.

Actually, this system of priorities is alive and well in America...in the homeschool community. I pay taxes toward that education system that few respect (although I do, and was once a member of it) because they are required by law, and then I opt to provide the education I have determined through research to be the most effective for my children. It's surely not the easiest option and isn't feasible for everyone, but much of America (and this is not a personal attack on anyone here, by any means) acts like it's the craziest, most irresponsible idea ever. Meanwhile, in our homeschool we are doing most of the things suggested above. And no, we don't test every year, because most of the tests available are worthless as indicators of actual knowledge and understanding.
I value my kids' education so much, I make it my top priority. And for us, that means I am their teacher. My goal is to produce well educated, responsible citizens. One of whom (my dd) is hoping to be an astronaut. So I agree: let's not let our STEM subjects slide! : )

 

[Coconut36]

Here are some other things to consider when evaluating the Finnish system:
-their society values education and literacy
-they read
-they place a high value on mathematical literacy
-they don't substitute mythology for science.

Americans don't read, don't value education, prefer mathematical illiteracy, and substitute mythology for science.

The Finnish willingly pay for a social safety net and see schools as a source of pride. Americans lament paying for education through taxes.

The Finnish system would never work here because we don't have the sensibilities and priorities that allow that system to succeed.



Recalling the recent thread about public schools and charter schools, most parents don't have a choice in where their children go to school. Choice requires resources that many, many don't have.

I do think that is a HUGE piece that most people don't think about when comparing the US education system to others..no matter how long we make the day, how hard we push..when education is not valued by parents it is going to fail. Education is NOT valued in the US. Those outside education likely do not realize truly how little value it is given..how many parents tell their kids it's not important or a waste of time, who don't bother making sure they attend or make it to school on time and so on. Yet teachers are supposed to take the kid who is told "school is stupid" and has parents that don't bring them to the same place as the kid with parents who value education, work with their child, get them to school on time each day.

As for the bold..such is life. There are a lot of things I want in life that require financial resources I don't have. When it comes to education I don't feel it is any different. There is absolutely school choice but yes you might be required to pay for that if your choice is not public/charter education and I think it needs to remain that way because there is no reason one should not have to foot the bill for it if that is the choice that they feel is best for them/their child. Parents remain responsible for their children's education regardless of the school they send them to. I personally am a big believer that as long as the environment is safe it is up to me as a parent to challenge my kids where they need challenge and my job to get them help and support when and where they need it to. It is up to me to supplement what they learn and I don't get to wash my hands of their education because they are in school. There are things I feel are lacking already in my 3rd graders education and it's my job to give them what I feel is lacking..if I don't have the abilities then it is up to me to find someone who does to give that to them.

 

[mhsjax]

Yes, I said that I definitely went to the worst of the worst schools. And it talking with other 1981-ish graduates from around the country, they definitely had higher level classes that my school did. However, I don't think I've run into too many people that had school systems as rigorous as Shortbun's. But I have talked with older people who have.

I dont know that we had anyone with her schedule either, I know that I sure didn't. School was more of a "social" thing for me. But some of my friends took AP classes and have done very well for themselves in college and now in the "real" world. Ours was a slightly above average school, back in the day. Now, you wouldn't even consider sending your kid there.

 

[mhsjax]

Can you not choose where your kid goes to school? As long as the school will take them, what's stopping you?

My high school required 3 years of math (algebra, geometry & trig, calc was optional), 4 years of science (bio, chem, physics, then AP bio or physics or both if you weren't doing a math), 4 of history/whatever, 4 of English, 3 of a living foreign language, 4 of Latin.

Back in the dark ages, at least in my area, you had no choice. You were in an area that went to a certain school, then you went to that school. The only other option was private.

Today, in our area, high school kids are allowed to apply to "academies" within a high school. If they are accepted into these programs they can go to this school, but the parent is responsible for getting them there. They would be out of the bus zone. These are our only options for selecting a different school. but at least we do have those.

 

[luvsJack]

I do think that is a HUGE piece that most people don't think about when comparing the US education system to others..no matter how long we make the day, how hard we push..when education is not valued by parents it is going to fail. Education is NOT valued in the US. Those outside education likely do not realize truly how little value it is given..how many parents tell their kids it's not important or a waste of time, who don't bother making sure they attend or make it to school on time and so on. Yet teachers are supposed to take the kid who is told "school is stupid" and has parents that don't bring them to the same place as the kid with parents who value education, work with their child, get them to school on time each day.

As for the bold..such is life. There are a lot of things I want in life that require financial resources I don't have. When it comes to education I don't feel it is any different. There is absolutely school choice but yes you might be required to pay for that if your choice is not public/charter education and I think it needs to remain that way because there is no reason one should not have to foot the bill for it if that is the choice that they feel is best for them/their child. Parents remain responsible for their children's education regardless of the school they send them to. I personally am a big believer that as long as the environment is safe it is up to me as a parent to challenge my kids where they need challenge and my job to get them help and support when and where they need it to. It is up to me to supplement what they learn and I don't get to wash my hands of their education because they are in school. There are things I feel are lacking already in my 3rd graders education and it's my job to give them what I feel is lacking..if I don't have the abilities then it is up to me to find someone who does to give that to them.

While I agree with you that a parent should be actively involved in their child's education, finding someone or somewhere to supplement what the public school's provide, going to a private or charter school is just not a possibility to many. And every child, regardless of their parent's finances, deserve the same education.

As for the comparison of "back then" and now. I graduated in 81 from the same high school dd will graduate from. Its definitely better now. I was required to have 2 math credits---general math was an option and we were able to choose it, because it was easy, if we wanted to. The class was a joke. Now the students are placed by their abilities in math and in science.






Do other states have the subject area state test in high school? While I hate state testing, I do feel these test have helped to improve the classes in these areas. Students have to learn the material and pass these tests or they do not graduate. Our state has them in Alg, Bio and Eng.

 

[cornflake]

Back in the dark ages, at least in my area, you had no choice. You were in an area that went to a certain school, then you went to that school. The only other option was private.

Today, in our area, high school kids are allowed to apply to "academies" within a high school. If they are accepted into these programs they can go to this school, but the parent is responsible for getting them there. They would be out of the bus zone. These are our only options for selecting a different school. but at least we do have those.

I actually don't know how public schools here work, besides the ones you test into (which anyone can go to if they make it). I don't know anyone who's gone to the others. I know for some public kindergartens you have to enter a lottery but ...

 

[cornflake]

Do other states have the subject area state test in high school? While I hate state testing, I do feel these test have helped to improve the classes in these areas. Students have to learn the material and pass these tests or they do not graduate. Our state has them in Alg, Bio and Eng.

I mentioned someplace upthread, but yes, NYS has this, for pretty much all subjects. They're called regents exams and they're not simple. From the NYS education site -

For high school graduation, New York State grants 2 levels of diploma:

Regents Diploma
Regents Diploma with Advanced Designation


Required Regents Exams for Regents Diploma

Passing the following Regents exams with a score of 65 or better is required for a Regents Diploma:

Comprehensive English
Mathematics (Any one)
Global History
US History
Science (Any one)


Required Regents Exams for Regents Diploma with Advanced Designation
Passing the following Regents exams with a score of 65 or better is required for a Regents Diploma with Advanced Designation:

Comprehensive English
Mathematics (All three)
Global History
US History
Science (One physical and one life science)
Language other than English


With Honors

The "with honors" designation is added to either Regents Diploma option for students with an average score of 90 or more on all required Regents exams.

My school only dealt in advanced, so you had to take a regents in math each year, etc. Every year there were a whole bunch to take (I believe the above are the minimums because we took every year for science, etc.,) and they also rolled into your final grade.

Some sample essay q. from the English, from the NYS Regents site - the test is a bunch of reading comp, plus three essays, including -

“It is only with the heart that one can see rightly . . .”
—Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Be sure to

• Provide a valid interpretation of the critical lens that clearly establishes the criteria for analysis
• Indicate whether you agree or disagree with the statement as you have interpreted it
• Choose two works you have read that you believe best support your opinion
• Use the criteria suggested by the critical lens to analyze the works you have chosen
• Avoid plot summary. Instead, use specific references to appropriate literary elements(for example: theme, characterization, setting, point of view) to develop your analysis
• Organize your ideas in a unified and coherent manner
• Specify the titles and authors of the literature you choose
• Follow the conventions of standard written English

These are a few of the essay q. from the world history -

What was the basis of Mussolini's argument against democracy?

How did the English Bill of Rights change governmental decision making?

According to Pericles, what is a responsibility of a citizen in a democracy?

 

[Nette]

Finland has (free for everybody) preschool, but does not do academics there--only social skills and building self reliance.

They do not start teaching reading until age 7.

They have fewer hours of school per year than just about anyone (averaging at 770 in highschool ages) and no more than half an hour of homework TOTAL per night.

Teachers are given VERY little in the way of requirements and can choose their own text and own manner of teaching.

Most school do not use grades at all in the early years and there is no nationwide testing (random samplings here and there and the PISA are it).

It is so totally and completely NOT what we do--and I am more and more blown away by it all the more I read today

Here are some other things to consider when evaluating the Finnish system:
-their society values education and literacy
-they read
-they place a high value on mathematical literacy
-they don't substitute mythology for science.

Americans don't read, don't value education, prefer mathematical illiteracy, and substitute mythology for science.

The Finnish willingly pay for a social safety net and see schools as a source of pride. Americans lament paying for education through taxes.

The Finnish system would never work here because we don't have the sensibilities and priorities that allow that system to succeed.

Another thing that should be mentioned is that teachers are very highly valued in Finland, and the process is VERY selective:

http://www.helsinki.fi/news/archive/1-2012/25-16-58-02.html

Finland has a very rare situation in which only the very best applicants are selected for teacher education programmes. This year, only 6.7 per cent of the applicants were accepted. It is, in other words, more difficult to enroll in a teacher education programme than in a medical school or a law school.

Most teachers are required to spend more time in school as well. Most teachers hold a master's degree. Compare that to the US, where all you need is a Bachelor's (in pretty much anything) and a teaching certificate. In fact, I could go get a temporary certificate today and be allowed to teach by submitting my college transcripts and taking an exam that basically proves I am fluent in basic maths, English and history. After two years teaching in a public school -- as a regular teacher! -- I can apply for and get a permanent teaching certificate.

We don't value our teachers here in the US. We put too many regulations on them and don't require enough education for them. We allow pretty much anyone who can get a BA/BS to become a teacher whether or not they have an aptitude for teaching (And I do believe teaching is a talent, not a learned skill.) At my daughter's (private) school, they get paid less to start, but just about every teacher has an advanced degree in some sort of educational field. My daughter's first grade teacher holds a masters in childhood literacy. Many of the teachers are working toward their doctorates. Even though they're paid less, they seem happier because there aren't a bunch of god awful restrictions on how they teach.

 

[cornflake]

Not to mention that just because something is on the curriculum at a certain point doesn't mean no one is exposed to it earlier.

I know some finns. Every one of them speaks at least 3-4 languages fluently, having learned at least a couple from very early childhood and people there teach their own kids things just like lots of parents here.

I knew lots of things before they came up in any classroom, including how to read, because I learned at home.