Sports: Deflate-Gate

[GAN]

We're back to denial that anything happened. Gotcha.

The refs already admitted they didn't pin test the balls ...explain how that is denial

 

[TAX GUY]

Again, it was no secret TB preferred the game balls to be on the softer side. I knew this, McNally knew this, the NFL knew this (look back at the comments where TB and Peyton Manning lobbied the league to allow balls to be where QB's liked them). Does that mean TB directly told McNally to deflate them to 12.5 PSI or under? Has it been proven he told him to do that? It doesn't matter if McNally stopped in a bathroom or took a public bus to deliver the bag of balls to the field. It still doesn't prove that TB told him to do it.
If someone higher up in the company I worked for had a preference for something and I was the one responsible for providing that, and I continued to give him/her that item, NOT the way they liked it or wanted it, I'd be on the outside looking in. I wouldn't have to hear it directly from him/her either. If others within the company let me know that's what s(he) likes, wouldn't I want to be sure that's how I gave it to them? That's why I have no issues with the team/organization paying the fine and losing picks. Its also why I have a problem with the suspension handed to TB, since there is no proof he had DIRECT involvement.

Nobody is answering my questions about McNally's actions. Sound like TB's advisors have gotten to some Disboard members.

 

[pat fan]

GrnMtnMan said: ↑
Nobody is answering my questions about McNally's actions. Sound like TB's advisors have gotten to some Disboard members.
"GrnMtnMan said: ↑

For folks who support /love TB: how do you reconcile TB the amazing machine of a man with the seemingly picture perfect life, a (formerly) squeaky clean polished image as a kind and charitable guy, and an amazingly efficient and effective quarterback who runs his team with exceptional precision, with the guy that is bungling this situation horribly and looks like criminal who’s trying to hide the evidence of his crimes.

Well, if anyone knew me IRL, you'd know I actually do not like TB! But to answer your question, I think he's kinda behaving how I would if I was accused of a nefarious activity. First time you hear of it, you sort of make a joke because it's ridiculous to you. Then, when it appears that people were serious and not kidding with an allegation, you'd panic and be like "Wait, what??" and look pretty silly doing it. But that's me.

Look, I've said it before. Do I think the balls get "made" (rubbing, mashing, PSI) how he likes them prior to inspection? Yes. Just like every other QB. Is he emphatic about it? I'm sure he is. Does he give the ball guys "stuff" because they work at getting them how he likes them? By all accounts he's generous so probably. Sticky part. Did he instruct the ball guys to do anything with the balls AFTER they've been inspected? Seriously, I doubt it. Is it possible? Sure, anything is possible. But he's not a complete dumb-*** and I can't see him doing all this if he did. More likely than not, if they were doctored after the inspection I'm guessing it was ball guy initiative although you'd think they'd have done a better job of it. The part that's really irritating is the Bell and Hardy suspensions, especially since Bell's was the same day!!! This falls on Goodell for being a dictator and inconsistent."


You haven't "gotten" to anyone, at least not me. You just keep changing the question when we answer you. You haven't answered MY question to you yet either Too hard?

 

[MickeySP]

ITA. Too hard?

Haters gonna hate

 

[KBoopaloo]

Regardless of whether or not you believe the balls were tampered with and Tom was or was not "generally aware" of it, the punishment here is beyond the reach of what is allowed by the CBA between the NFLPA and the NFL. The link to the petition to vacate the suspension is here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/272989825/NFLPA-s-Petition-To-Vacate-Tom-Brady-Suspension

The crux of the argument from the NFLPA is:

- The investigation was conducted and punishments imposed under a policy that applies only to CLUBS, not to individual players.

- Aside from the fact that as an individual player Tom is not subject to the terms of that policy, he was also never informed that his discipline would be imposed under that policy. This is a violation of a recent ruling in the Peterson case which affords players advance notice of potential discipline.

- Player Policies (the policies Tom is subject to as an individual player) allow only for fines, not suspensions as punishment for equipment violations.

- Fines (and not suspensions) are also the only punishments that have ever been upheld in the case of non cooperation with an investigation (see Bret Favre and his $50,000 fine for non-cooperation in 2010)

- The science which I will not get into here as it has been hashed and rehashed. However it is noted that the NFL had no standard procedures or guidelines for properly measuring and recording the PSI of the footballs until 3 days ago which accounts in large part for the incomplete and inconclusive data from the AFC championship game (for example, not knowing for sure which gauge was used to measure the initial PSI of the balls before the start of the game).

- During the appeal process, Paul Weiss who had been involved in the creation of "independent" Wells Report actively acted as counsel on behalf of the NFL and a partner from his firm represented the NFL as lead counsel despite being a signatory on the "independent" Wells report. Additionally Tom's team was not allowed to question essential witness during the appeal and they were denied access to investigative files used in the Wells Report.

- The red herring of the "destroyed phone" despite Tom's team having provide a full listing of all of Tom's phone records and the NFL having access to the Patriots issued phones of any Patriots employee/staffer that Tom may have communicated with during that time period (including the two equipment guys and Bill Belichick) Also a note that Tom was never at any time informed that not producing his telephone could result in additional discipline (this is the violation of the order from the Peterson case as mentioned previously).

 

[pat fan]

http://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/tom-brady-broken-phone/

Good article.

 

[GAN]

http://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/tom-brady-broken-phone/

Good article.

......word

 

[sunshinehighway]

http://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/tom-brady-broken-phone/

Good article.

Thanks for posting.
The phone thing is silly. They weren't going to get their hands on his phone. He wasn't turning it over and they had no right to make him.
It's silly to think he had it smashed so investigators couldn't have it. They were never getting it.
Notice there's little talk about what information was given or offered?

 

[undertheradar]

Waiting to see what the league does about Kraft's rant.

As for Brady, do pay attention to his legal reps and the NFLPA legal reps instructing the investigators to collect the data from the phones of others. Again, not seeing this "full cooperation" that Brady supposedly provided.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Waiting to see what the league does about Kraft's rant.

As for Brady, do pay attention to his legal reps and the NFLPA legal reps instructing the investigators to collect the data from the phones of others. Again, not seeing this "full cooperation" that Brady supposedly provided.

Should he have to provide full cooperation even if they are making unreasonable demands? He provided reasonable cooperation. He shouldn't be punished for not bowing to their every wish.

 

[undertheradar]

Should he have to provide full cooperation even if they are making unreasonable demands? He provided reasonable cooperation. He shouldn't be punished for not bowing to their every wish.

Telling them to collect the data from others is not "reasonable cooperation."

 

[Sanchez]

Thanks for posting.
The phone thing is silly. They weren't going to get their hands on his phone. He wasn't turning it over and they had no right to make him.
It's silly to think he had it smashed so investigators couldn't have it. They were never getting it.
Notice there's little talk about what information was given or offered?

I don't pretend to know all of the facts and really don't have an opinion on the ultimate issue. However, the destruction of the phone is interesting. You are correct in stating that the league did not have a right to make Brady turn over the phone. But it is not silly to believe that he destroyed it to prevent information from being discovered. It seems that Brady has threatened for months to bring a lawsuit (and I believe the NFLPA has done that) and he and his lawyers had to know that certain contents of the phone are subject to discovery in a legal action. Prudent lawyers would have advised him to not destroy evidence. Discovery of electronic messages is a routine part of any civil case.

I have to believe that the phone destruction was done purposely and with an intent to prevent information from being discovered.

 

[GrnMtnMan]

NFL scores first as Minnesota judge kicks Tom Brady, NFLPA case to New York

A Minnesota judge has sided with the NFL in its turf battle over where the case brought by the NFL Players Association on behalf of Tom Brady will be heard.

“This court perceives no reason for this action to proceed in Minnesota,” U.S. District Court Judge Richard Kyle ruled Thursday morning (via Fox’s Mike Garafolo), sending it to a court in Manhattan, where the NFL’s headquarters are located.

 

[GrnMtnMan]

Haters gonna hate

Once again:

 

[TAX GUY]

NFL scores first as Minnesota judge kicks Tom Brady, NFLPA case to New York

A Minnesota judge has sided with the NFL in its turf battle over where the case brought by the NFL Players Association on behalf of Tom Brady will be heard.

“This court perceives no reason for this action to proceed in Minnesota,” U.S. District Court Judge Richard Kyle ruled Thursday morning (via Fox’s Mike Garafolo), sending it to a court in Manhattan, where the NFL’s headquarters are located.

I don't see what the big deal is. So history shows Judge Ryan is usually more in favor of the players. That doesn't mean anything. Just like it doesn't mean anything to have the case heard in NY. Good, bad or indifferent, I'm glad its not in Minnesota. If the truth of the matter is that TB's suspension is overturned, I don't want to hear it was because Judge Ryan always favors the players.

 

[TAX GUY]

Sick of hearing about this and really think it is totally ridiculous. But...my question is if this plays out in Federal Court, will ALL the evidence be brought to the public light? A lot of what you keep hearing is Goodell said this, Brady said that.

And...does a jury decide the case or a judge? Just curious....

I certainly hope ALL evidence is put on the table. I'm a fan of the Patriots and Brady BUT at this point, I want it all out in the open. If TB is in fact guilty and there is hard evidence to prove that, then I'm all in favor of "a public hanging". On the same token, if he's NOT found guilty, I would love to say all those who hate him and the Pats would let it go.....but I don't see that happening.

I believe it's just a judge that will decide.

 

[sunshinehighway]

I don't pretend to know all of the facts and really don't have an opinion on the ultimate issue. However, the destruction of the phone is interesting. You are correct in stating that the league did not have a right to make Brady turn over the phone. But it is not silly to believe that he destroyed it to prevent information from being discovered. It seems that Brady has threatened for months to bring a lawsuit (and I believe the NFLPA has done that) and he and his lawyers had to know that certain contents of the phone are subject to discovery in a legal action. Prudent lawyers would have advised him to not destroy evidence. Discovery of electronic messages is a routine part of any civil case.

I have to believe that the phone destruction was done purposely and with an intent to prevent information from being discovered.

Records of his messages and calls were not destroyed with his phone.

 

[GrnMtnMan]

I believe it's just a judge that will decide.

You should prepare yourself for TB likely losing his legal battle. The consensus legal opinion (yes, there are dissenters) is that judges rarely intervene in cases of binding arbitration (which is what the players agreed to in the CBA).

ESPN: Brady, NFLPA likely to come up short in federal court challenge

Washington Post: Will Tom Brady, NFLPA prevail in court? Legal experts say it’s a long shot.

Forbes: Odds Are Stacked Against Tom Brady Successfully Suing The NFL

There may be no further trial related to 'guilt or innocence' just whether or not the process was within the contract (CBA). Fairness isn't even that much of an issue at this point.

 

[undertheradar]

Interesting how many defend the Patriot actions by claiming other teams do the same thing. There is holding on every play, yet it is the blatant holding that almost always draws a penalty. The Patriots are the ones who got caught, perhaps they should have cooperated fully with the investigation and the NFL would not have had to enact such a strong punishment. The real issue is that Brady, Kraft, and the entire Patriot organization have violated the integrity of the game. Due to arrogant flaunting of league rules, the Patriots pushed the limit too far and the league had to send a message. Seeing as there are 31 other owners, did Kraft believe that he was due special treatment?

 

[TAX GUY]

You should prepare yourself for TB likely losing his legal battle. The consensus legal opinion (yes, there are dissenters) is that judges rarely intervene in cases of binding arbitration (which is what the players agreed to in the CBA).

ESPN: Brady, NFLPA likely to come up short in federal court challenge

Washington Post: Will Tom Brady, NFLPA prevail in court? Legal experts say it’s a long shot.

Forbes: Odds Are Stacked Against Tom Brady Successfully Suing The NFL

There may be no further trial related to 'guilt or innocence' just whether or not the process was within the contract (CBA). Fairness isn't even that much of an issue at this point.

I'm prepared for either outcome. Honestly, like everyone else, I just want this to be over. Good, bad or indifferent. If he's cleared (on a personal level) great. Those against him will always have their opinion on him anyway. If he is proven to have had direct involvement, I'll hang my head in shame BUT I will still enjoy watching him play as well as the Patriots.