Kellykins1218
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2012
After seeing the interview of Burke, I have no doubt he was involved. That was one strange kid. He was just creepy.
JonBenet Ramsey - a question for those who follow this story
- Thread starter NY Disney fan
- Start date
cabanafrau
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- May 10, 2006
The show said it or the medical examiner said it? Was this an interview with the medical examiner who performed the postmortem, or a gun for hire medical examiner hired for a TV program? There is a huge difference. Who, when and how they said these things is important. Witnesses say all sorts of things all the time. In a courtroom they will be questioned about what they said, how they said it and exactly what they meant. Those kinds of things aren't possible on a TV program, so all sorts of misinformation gets accepted as fact. When a medical examiner writes their autopsy report or testifies about their findings in court they painstakingly go through each point of their process.
In the case of DNA on a victim's clothing or under their fingernails the medical examiner is merely the collector, not the analyst. That is done in a forensic biology lab by technicians trained for that specific job. The medical examiner will merely bag the victim's hands at the scene and then clip the fingernails and bag the trimmings to be forwarded to the crime lab. Clothing is also bagged and forwarded to the crime lab from the medical examiner's office. The medical examiner photographs and examines every detail of a victim for their report, but the clothing and fingernail clippings are merely forwarded on for testing by forensic biologists trained in those things. If you watched a "medical examiner" tell you that they scraped clothing for skin cells it's simply not true, that's neither their purview or even involves them.
None of that is how it happened.
sunshinehighway
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2010
I've looked up some stuff since watching that show and him being the killer is a populary theory.
Personally I think it's mean to call an 11 year old kid (at the time of the interview) creepy and call him a murdered.
In the interview he seems uncomfortable which should be understandable given that he was a little bit and being asked about his sister's murder.
Looking things up about this case, I've realised there are a lot of theories about it. Unfortunately it seems an obsession for people but they aren't really interested in the truth as much as proving they are right. It seems more like a case where people decide who they think is the killer and then look at evidence which proves them right instead of also seeing the evidence that doesn't fit or that they are jumping to conclusions based on what they want to believe.
Kellykins1218
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2012
I don't think it's mean at all. It's an honest opinion after watching his interview. He WAS creepy.
You just said "No doubt that he was involved" Just because he was creepy doesn't mean anything. Next time you are on a jury are you going to just look at the defendant and make a judgment call to his/her level of creepiness before deciding innocent or guilty? That makes no sense.
Kellykins1218
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2012
I said I had no doubt and I don't. It's my opinion based on his demeanor during his interview and his answers to the questions asked. It makes perfect sense.
~5:30 AM John Ramsey Awoke. "Defendants assert they woke around 5:30 a.m. and proceeded to get ready for their trip. While Mr. Ramsey took a shower, Mrs. Ramsey put back on the same outfit she had on the night before and reapplied her makeup. (SMF P 15.)" (Carnes 2003: 7) John Ramsey reportedly awoke before Patsy, at about 5:30, and dressed after showering (Schiller 1999a:77).
~5:33 AM Patsy Ramsey Awoke. Patsy Ramsey awoke "a few minutes later;" dressed, put on make-up and went to 2nd floor to rinse out JBR jumpsuit and then went downstairs to kitchen (Schiller 1999a:77). Ramsey & Ramsey (2001:10) states she put clothes for trip into plastic bag (there is no allusion to rinsing the jumpsuit).
~5:45 Ransom Note Discovered. "Mrs. Ramsey then went down the backstairs towards the second floor, then the spiral stairs towards the ground floor, where, on a step near the bottom of the stairs, she discovered a handwritten note on three sheets of paper that indicated JonBenét had been kidnapped (the "Ransom Note"). (SMF P 16)." (Carnes 2003:7). Patsy Ramsey "told Det. Arndt that she found a note at the bottom of the staircase" at "approximately" 5:45 AM (Byfield 1997:1)
~5:45 AM JBR Found Missing. "As she descended the back stairwell, she discovered the Ransom Note and read only those few lines stating that JonBenét was kidnapped, but "safe and unharmed," and demanding $118,000 for her return. (SMF P 17; PSMF P 17.) Mrs. Ramsey immediately screamed and proceeded to check JonBenét's room, which was empty. (SMF P 18; PSMF P 18)." (Carnes 2003:11-12). Patsy Ramsey discovered JBR missing at "approximately 5:45 AM" (Byfield 1997:1).
Before 5:52 AM Parents Checked on Burke. "After hearing Mrs. Ramsey's scream, Mr. Ramsey ran downstairs and met Mrs. Ramsey in the stairwell. Together, they checked on their son who appeared to be asleep in his room. (SMF P 18; PSMF P 18.)" (Carnes 2003:12).
Before 5:52 AM John Ramsey Read RN. "Mr. Ramsey then went downstairs to read the Ransom Note, while Mrs. Ramsey called the police, informing them that her child had been kidnapped. (SMF P 19; PSMF P 19)" (Carnes 2003:12).
5:52 AM Patsy Ramsey Made 911 Call. John told Patsy to call police; 911 call logged at 5:52 AM (Schiller 1999a:78). The Daily Camera places this call at 5:45 AM, as does Bardach (1997).
After 5:52 AM Ramseys Phone Family Friends. Fleet & Priscilla White and John & Barbara Fernie (friends of family) had been phoned "shortly after the note was found" (Byfield 1997:1). Schiller (1999a:78) states that Patsy had called Whites & Fernies "immediately after" the 911 call; Ramsey & Ramsey (2001: 12-13) states she called Fernies first and then Whites. Schiller places the call to the Whites at "at about 6:00 AM" with house guest Clif Gaston picking up the phone (1999a:44); since the call was placed before Officer French arrived, it must have been before 5:59 AM since that is the time Schiller has French arriving at the house.
5:59 AM Officer French Arrived. BPD officers Karl Veitch and Rick French are reported to have "responded to" 911 call at 5:52 AM, but it is not clear whether this denotes actual time of arrival at the house (Byfield 1997:1. "Office Rick French of the Boulder Police arrived at the defendants' home in a marked car a few minutes before six a.m., followed soon after by Detective Linda Arndt. (SMF P 21; PSMF P 21.)" (Carnes 2003:14). BPD Officer Rick French was the first law officer to arrive at Ramsey house at 5:59 AM (Schiller 1999a:77), i.e., 7 minutes after the 911 call (Schiller 1999a:78). Glick et al. (1998) concurs French arrived "just before 6 a.m." The Daily Camera has French and Veitch arriving at the Ramseys at 5:45 AM.
After 5:59 AM Officer French Read RN. In a story based on reading police reports, Newsweek reporters claim "French read the ransom note and later conducted a quick search of the house" although no timeframe is given for this (Glick et al. 1998). In contrast, Schiller claims French did the house search and then read the ransom note (Schiller 1999a:7; source and summary provided by Internet poster Athena). French himself stated in a Vanity Fair interview that after being greeted by Patsy on arrival, "John Ramsey directed me through the house and pointed out a three-page handwritten note which was laid on the wooden floor just west of the kitchen area" (Bardach 1997).
After 5:59 AM Officer Veitch Arrived. BPD officer Karl Veitch arrived before Fernies (Ramsey & Ramsey 1999a: 14). "Contrary to normal protocol, the police did not seal off the defendants' home, with the sole exception being the interior of JonBenét's bedroom. In other words, any person in the Ramsey house could, and often did, move freely throughout the home. (SMF P 21; PSMF P 22.)" (Carnes 2003:13).
After 5:59 AM John Fernie Arrived. John Fernie arrived at Ramsey house; his wife Barbara Fernie came "later" (Schiller 1999a: 44); Fernie was the first friend to arrive and he tried the patio door first (Schiller 1999a:78). This is consistent with the search warrant affidavit that Fernies were phoned "shortly after the note was found" and "immediately" come over. (Byfield 1997:1)
[paste:font size="6"]Athena).
Thomas provides a very similar account: "In the basement he also came to the white door at the far end of the that was closed and secured at the top by the wooden block on a screw. French was looking for exit points from the house and the door obviously was not one. No one could have gone through that door, closed it behind them, and locked it on the opposite side by turning the wooden latch, so he did not open it." (Thomas 2000:22-23).
This raises the question of how to resolve a 2-hour discrepancy between what might be viewed as "insider" accounts. Glick et al., do not provide an exact time, but it is clear that it nearly matches Schiller's rather than Thomas's as they flatly assert: "He noticed the latch was on the wrong side for a door leading out of the house. So he kept moving. Soon other officers arrived, including detectives and a forensics team that began dusting the house for fingerprints and searching for other clues" (Glick et al., 1998), so the search clearly was before the other detectives arrived, a flat contradiction of Thomas. Given that Glick et al. are professional reporters relying on police reports and produce a story consistent with Schiller, who conducted numerous interviews, their account probably should be accorded more credence than Thomas's even though he too in theory had access to the same police reports.
~6:03 AM Whites Arrived. Fleet & Priscilla White arrived at Ramsey house "minutes after" 6:00 AM (Schiller 1999a: 44). This is consistent with the search warrant affidavit that Whites had been phoned "shortly after the note was found" and "immediately" come over (Byfield 1997:1). Whites reportedly came "promptly" after being called (Carnes, 2003:12).
~6:06 AM Fleet White Searched Basement. Fleet White went downstairs to basement to look for JBR (Schiller 1999a: 44). This time is supported by Carnes (2003:14): "The Whites arrived at defendant's home at approximately 6:00 a.m., and Mr. White, alone, searched the basement within fifteen minutes of arrival. (SMF P 23; PSMF P 23.) Mr. White testified that when he began his search, the lights were already on in the basement and the door in the hallway leading to the basement "wine cellar" room was opened. (SMF P 25; PSMF P 25; White Dep. at 147, 151-52.)" (Carnes 2003:14).
After 6:06 AM Fleet White Searched Train Room. "He further testified that a window in the basement playroom was broken. (SMF P 26; PSMF P 26; White Dep. at 28, 152 & 154.) Under the broken window, Mr. White states there was a suitcase, along with a broken shard of glass. (SMF P 27; PSMF P 27; White Dep. at 28-29, 156-59, & 15 265.) He does not, however, remember whether the window was opened or closed. n11 (SMF P 28; PSMF P 28; White Dep. at 153.)" (Carnes 2003:14).
After 6:06 AM Fleet White Searched Wine Cellar Room. "Mr. White also opened the door to the wine cellar room, but he could not see anything inside because it was dark and he could not find the light switch. (SMF P 29; PSMF P 29; White Dep. at 159-61.)" (Carnes 2003:14).
Before 6:45 AM John Ramsey Calls Pilot. John Ramsey leaves message for his pilot Michael Archuleta who returns the call a few minutes later; Patsy answers the phone (Schiller 1999a:78).
6:45 AM Weiss, Barcklow and Reichenbach Arrive. BPD officers Barry Weiss, Sue Barcklow, and Sgt. Paul Reichenbach arrive at Ramsey house (Schiller 1999a:79); the search warrant affidavit confirms that Weiss was at the house when Arndt arrived at 8:00 AM (Byfield 1997:1).
6:45 AM Priscilla White called niece at White house (Schiller 1999a:44).
~7:00 AM Burke Ramsey is awakened and dressed (Schiller 1999a:45).
After 7:00 AM Rev. Hoverstock Arrived. Rev. Hoverstock from St. John's Episcopalian Church arrives at Ramsey house just before Burke left to go to White's house (Schiller 1999a:45); the search warrant affidavit states the pastor arrived "shortly after the note was found" (Byfield 1997:1).
After 7:00 AM Burke Ramsey Taken to Whites. Burke Ramsey is taken by Fleet White and John Fernie to pick up the Fernie children and then taken to the White's home (Schiller 1999a:45).
Between 7:00-8:00 AM John Ramsey Searched Basement. "at around ten a.m., Mr. Ramsey also searched the basement area alone. He testified he found the broken window partially open. (SMF P 30; PSMF P 30; J. Ramsey Dep. at 30.) Under the broken window, Mr. Ramsey also saw the same suitcase seen earlier by Mr. White. Mr. Ramsey testified that the suitcase belonged to his family, but was normally stored in a different place. (SMF P 31; 16 PSMF P 31; J. Ramsey Dep. at 17.) *1331 Mr. Ramsey then returned upstairs. Plaintiff Chris Wolf theorizes that Mr. Ramsey actually found JonBenét's body at this time. (PSDMF P 57.)" (Carnes 2003:14]. Internet poster Bluecrab claims he did more than just check the window. It appears that Carnes may have this time wrong. In his 1998 testimony, John Ramsey provides several different times for when he searched the basement on his own. He first states "It would have been that time period: seven to nine." (p. 155, lines 19-20) and later reiterates "it was probably some time between seven and nine" (p. 157, lines 12-13). When asked whether it was before or after Whites and Fernies arrived, John stated: "I think it was after, because they came fairly early" (p. 174, lines 1-2). He then reiterated: "The best I can do is, it was, I believe, after the police came. Because they had gone through the house before I figured out what I'm going to do. It was before ten o'clock. They had already done some preparation before that. So it would have been before. Probably before nine. So then somewhere between seven and nine." (p. 174, lines 5-11). But when reminded that the RN said a phone call would come between 8 and 10 AM, NOT 10-12 AM, as John had supposed, John made clear that he had visited the basement prior to that time since "When we were ready for the phone call and I was prepped about what I was going to say and I was getting the family ready. And so between that period of time we were just waiting for the phone call and I was near the phone. And I was either in the study or on the first floor. I just waiting for it." (p. 174, lines 22-25; p. 175, lines 1-3). In response to a query from Mike Kane, John Ramsey confirmed that his trip to the basement "would have been before that time period." (p. 175, lines 6-7). However, Internet poster Amber believes John must have visited the basement before either Fleet White or Officer French since he found a chair in front of the train room door and there's no good reason to believe White or French would have re-blocked the door with the chair after they entered the train room (which both did according to their own accounts). If so, John's trip would have been before 6:00 AM.
7:30 AM Ransom Amount Assembled. John Ramsey collected the $118,000 demanded in the ransom note (AngelFire timeline).
Prior to 8:00 AM Reichenbach Briefs Arndt and Patterson. Sgt. Reichenbach meets with BPD Detectives Linda Arndt and Fred Patterson at the Basemar Shopping Center to brief them on the case (Schiller 1999a:79).
[paste:font size="6"]Byfield 1997:1); she monitored incoming phone calls to the Ramsey residence from approximately 0800-1300 hours (Byfield 1997:2). Patterson's arrival time is not mentioned in the search warrant affidavit, but Schiller (1999a:10) has him arriving with Arndt at 8:10 AM. "Detective Arndt and Patterson arrived at the Ramsey house at 8:10 a.m., and Officer Rick French gave them an updated briefing." (Thomas 2000:22).
Time Unstated Advocates Brought Food. "Early that morning, police had called in a team of victims' advocates, trained in helping families through traumatic situations, who arrived with bagels and coffee." (Glick et al. 1998).
Time Unstated Police Tapped Phones. BPD followed standard procedure by putting taps inside the house and at John Ramsey's office (Glick et al. 1998).
Time Unstated Arndt Instructed John Ramsey. "Linda Arndt told John Ramsey what to say if the ransomer called: demand to talk to JonBenét. John Ramsey took notes. "Must talk to JB," he scribbled." (Glick et al., 1998).
Time Unstated Advocates Cleaned Kitchen. "After using the kitchen, the advocates began tidying it up, a law-enforcement official told NEWSWEEK. One friend helped clean the kitchen, wiping down the counters with a spray cleaner--and possibly wiping away important evidence." (Glick et al. 1998).
8:36 AM JAR and MR Board Plane. John Andrew and Melinda Ramsey borded a Delta flight to Minneapolis (AngelFire timeline).
~9:30 AM Sergeant Whitson Arrived. BPD Sergeant Bob Whitson arrived at house, entering through rear exterior kitchen door (Byfield 1997:4).
[paste:font size="6"]Byfield 1997:2). "Police reports also show that officers did little to protect the integrity of the crime scene. Believing the crime was a kidnapping, the cops cordoned off JonBenét's bedroom with yellow and black crime-scene tape to preserve whatever evidence her abductor may have left behind. But strangely, they didn't seal the rest of the house--also potentially part of the crime scene" (Glick et al. 1998).
Time Unstated "In the early afternoon, after the forensics team and other officers had packed up and left, Detective Arndt stayed behind to wait with the Ramseys." (Glick et al. 1998).
Before 1:00 PM Arndt Tells John Ramsey to Search House. "The mood in the house was quiet and tense. John Ramsey milled anxiously around the living room; Patsy sat virtually motionless in a chair. Arndt noted in her police report that she wanted to give John Ramsey something to do "to keep his mind occupied." She pulled Ramsey and friend Fleet White aside and told them to conduct a "top to bottom" search of the house to see if anything seemed amiss." (Glick et al. 1998).
[paste:font size="6"]Byfield 1997:2). Other accounts make no mention of Fernie. "Later that afternoon, Mr. Ramsey and Mr. White together returned to the basement at the suggestion of the Boulder Police. (SMF P 32; PSMF P 32; White Dep. at 212-217; J. Ramsey Dep. at 17-20.) During this joint search of the basement, the men first examined the playroom and observed the broken window. (SMF P 33; PSMF P 33.) The men next searched a shower stall located in the basement. (SMF P 34; PSMF P 34.) Mr. Ramsey then noticed a heavy fireplace grate propped in front of a closet and Mr. White moved the grate so the closet could be searched. (SMF P 35; PSMF P 35.) Upon finding nothing unusual in the closet, the men proceeded to the wine cellar room. Mr. Ramsey entered the room first, turned on the light and, upon discovery of JonBenét's dead body, he exclaimed "Oh my God, my baby." (SMF P 36, 37; PSMF P 36, 37; White Dep. at 162-63, 193-93.)Ramsey & Ramsey (2001:21) reports only that John took Fleet White to the basement.
1:05 PM JBR Body Found. "Mr. Ramsey entered the room first, turned on the light and, upon discovery of JonBenét's dead body, he exclaimed "Oh my God, my baby." (SMF P 36, 37; PSMF P 36, 37; White Dep. at 162-63, 193-93.)" (Carnes 2003:14). The time is listed as 1:05 in the Ramsey's account (Ramsey & Ramsey 2001:22). Newsweek reports John Ramsey as later stating ""All I could do was scream, to try to attract attention." he says." (Glick et al. 1998).
After 1:05 PM Duct Tape Removed. "JonBenét had black duct tape covering her mouth, a cord around her neck that was attached to a wooden garrote, and her hands were bound over her head in front of her; she was covered by a light-colored blanket. (SMF P 38; PSMF P 38.) ....Mr. Ramsey ripped the duct tape off JonBenét's mouth and attempted to untie her hands. (SMF P 39; PSMF P 39.)" (Carnes 2003:16-17).
~1:05 PM Fleet White Calls for Ambulance. "Within a few minutes" of going into basement, Fleet White came running upstairs, grabbed the telephone in the back office located on the first floor, and yelled for someone to call an ambulance (Byfield 1997:2). "Fleet White bounded up the stairs yelling for someone to "call 911."" (Glick et al. 1998).
1:05 PM Byfield Notified. BPD officer Jim Byfield is notified that JBR body had been found (Byfield 1997:1)
After 1:05 PM JBR Carried Upstairs "He then carried her body upstairs. (SMF P 39; PSMF P 39.)" (Carnes 2003:17). "Ramsey ripped the duct tape off JonBenét's mouth and carried her up the stairs, setting her down on the floor. Though it's unclear why, Arndt then picked up the body again and moved it to the living room near the Christmas tree where Ramsey knelt beside her, repeating "My little angel," over and over. Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét." (Glick et al. 1998).
After 1:05 PM Arndt Requested Backup. "Arndt quickly called for backup, declaring a "Code Black"--police lingo for murder--over the radio. The forensic team return to the house." (Glick et al. 1998).
After 1:05 PM Officers Weiss and Everett Arrive. Between 1:05 pm and 1:30 pm BPD officer Barry Weiss and Det. Michael Everett arrive at Ramseys (Schiller 1999a:21).
After 1:05 PM Everett Searched Basement. "After the discovery of the girl's body" Everett "walked through the basement area of the house to attempt to determine if any person were present in the basement" (Byfield 1997:2). This search includes the wine cellar (Schiller 1999a:21).
1:30 PM Walker and Mason Searched Basement. BPD officers Ron Walker and Larry Mason saw JonBenét's body in the living room and then searched the basement and the wine cellar; Mason decides to secure the house (Schiller 1999a:21).
1:30 PM Priscilla White Calls Niece. Priscilla White calls her niece at the White home, to report the murder (Schiller 1999a:46).
~1:30 PM John Calls Pilot. "Twenty minutes later after Arndt moves body, John is overheard placing a phone call to his pilot to ready the plane to head for Atlanta. Police instruct them not to leave town, so they stay at a friend's home in Boulder" (Crime Library timeline).
1:45 PM Ramseys Leave for Fernie's. The Ramseys left their home to stay with the Fernie's. Attorney friend Mike Bynum advised them to get lawyers (AngelFire timeline).
1:50 PM House Secured "It was only upon the discovery of JonBenét's body that the Boulder police began to secure properly the home as the crime scene. (SMF P 53; PSMF P 53.)" (Carnes 2003:17). Schiller lists the time this happened as 1:50 PM(1999a:23).
~5:33 AM Patsy Ramsey Awoke. Patsy Ramsey awoke "a few minutes later;" dressed, put on make-up and went to 2nd floor to rinse out JBR jumpsuit and then went downstairs to kitchen (Schiller 1999a:77). Ramsey & Ramsey (2001:10) states she put clothes for trip into plastic bag (there is no allusion to rinsing the jumpsuit).
~5:45 Ransom Note Discovered. "Mrs. Ramsey then went down the backstairs towards the second floor, then the spiral stairs towards the ground floor, where, on a step near the bottom of the stairs, she discovered a handwritten note on three sheets of paper that indicated JonBenét had been kidnapped (the "Ransom Note"). (SMF P 16)." (Carnes 2003:7). Patsy Ramsey "told Det. Arndt that she found a note at the bottom of the staircase" at "approximately" 5:45 AM (Byfield 1997:1)
~5:45 AM JBR Found Missing. "As she descended the back stairwell, she discovered the Ransom Note and read only those few lines stating that JonBenét was kidnapped, but "safe and unharmed," and demanding $118,000 for her return. (SMF P 17; PSMF P 17.) Mrs. Ramsey immediately screamed and proceeded to check JonBenét's room, which was empty. (SMF P 18; PSMF P 18)." (Carnes 2003:11-12). Patsy Ramsey discovered JBR missing at "approximately 5:45 AM" (Byfield 1997:1).
Before 5:52 AM Parents Checked on Burke. "After hearing Mrs. Ramsey's scream, Mr. Ramsey ran downstairs and met Mrs. Ramsey in the stairwell. Together, they checked on their son who appeared to be asleep in his room. (SMF P 18; PSMF P 18.)" (Carnes 2003:12).
Before 5:52 AM John Ramsey Read RN. "Mr. Ramsey then went downstairs to read the Ransom Note, while Mrs. Ramsey called the police, informing them that her child had been kidnapped. (SMF P 19; PSMF P 19)" (Carnes 2003:12).
5:52 AM Patsy Ramsey Made 911 Call. John told Patsy to call police; 911 call logged at 5:52 AM (Schiller 1999a:78). The Daily Camera places this call at 5:45 AM, as does Bardach (1997).
After 5:52 AM Ramseys Phone Family Friends. Fleet & Priscilla White and John & Barbara Fernie (friends of family) had been phoned "shortly after the note was found" (Byfield 1997:1). Schiller (1999a:78) states that Patsy had called Whites & Fernies "immediately after" the 911 call; Ramsey & Ramsey (2001: 12-13) states she called Fernies first and then Whites. Schiller places the call to the Whites at "at about 6:00 AM" with house guest Clif Gaston picking up the phone (1999a:44); since the call was placed before Officer French arrived, it must have been before 5:59 AM since that is the time Schiller has French arriving at the house.
5:59 AM Officer French Arrived. BPD officers Karl Veitch and Rick French are reported to have "responded to" 911 call at 5:52 AM, but it is not clear whether this denotes actual time of arrival at the house (Byfield 1997:1. "Office Rick French of the Boulder Police arrived at the defendants' home in a marked car a few minutes before six a.m., followed soon after by Detective Linda Arndt. (SMF P 21; PSMF P 21.)" (Carnes 2003:14). BPD Officer Rick French was the first law officer to arrive at Ramsey house at 5:59 AM (Schiller 1999a:77), i.e., 7 minutes after the 911 call (Schiller 1999a:78). Glick et al. (1998) concurs French arrived "just before 6 a.m." The Daily Camera has French and Veitch arriving at the Ramseys at 5:45 AM.
After 5:59 AM Officer French Read RN. In a story based on reading police reports, Newsweek reporters claim "French read the ransom note and later conducted a quick search of the house" although no timeframe is given for this (Glick et al. 1998). In contrast, Schiller claims French did the house search and then read the ransom note (Schiller 1999a:7; source and summary provided by Internet poster Athena). French himself stated in a Vanity Fair interview that after being greeted by Patsy on arrival, "John Ramsey directed me through the house and pointed out a three-page handwritten note which was laid on the wooden floor just west of the kitchen area" (Bardach 1997).
After 5:59 AM Officer Veitch Arrived. BPD officer Karl Veitch arrived before Fernies (Ramsey & Ramsey 1999a: 14). "Contrary to normal protocol, the police did not seal off the defendants' home, with the sole exception being the interior of JonBenét's bedroom. In other words, any person in the Ramsey house could, and often did, move freely throughout the home. (SMF P 21; PSMF P 22.)" (Carnes 2003:13).
After 5:59 AM John Fernie Arrived. John Fernie arrived at Ramsey house; his wife Barbara Fernie came "later" (Schiller 1999a: 44); Fernie was the first friend to arrive and he tried the patio door first (Schiller 1999a:78). This is consistent with the search warrant affidavit that Fernies were phoned "shortly after the note was found" and "immediately" come over. (Byfield 1997:1)
[paste:font size="6"]Athena).
Thomas provides a very similar account: "In the basement he also came to the white door at the far end of the that was closed and secured at the top by the wooden block on a screw. French was looking for exit points from the house and the door obviously was not one. No one could have gone through that door, closed it behind them, and locked it on the opposite side by turning the wooden latch, so he did not open it." (Thomas 2000:22-23).
This raises the question of how to resolve a 2-hour discrepancy between what might be viewed as "insider" accounts. Glick et al., do not provide an exact time, but it is clear that it nearly matches Schiller's rather than Thomas's as they flatly assert: "He noticed the latch was on the wrong side for a door leading out of the house. So he kept moving. Soon other officers arrived, including detectives and a forensics team that began dusting the house for fingerprints and searching for other clues" (Glick et al., 1998), so the search clearly was before the other detectives arrived, a flat contradiction of Thomas. Given that Glick et al. are professional reporters relying on police reports and produce a story consistent with Schiller, who conducted numerous interviews, their account probably should be accorded more credence than Thomas's even though he too in theory had access to the same police reports.
~6:03 AM Whites Arrived. Fleet & Priscilla White arrived at Ramsey house "minutes after" 6:00 AM (Schiller 1999a: 44). This is consistent with the search warrant affidavit that Whites had been phoned "shortly after the note was found" and "immediately" come over (Byfield 1997:1). Whites reportedly came "promptly" after being called (Carnes, 2003:12).
~6:06 AM Fleet White Searched Basement. Fleet White went downstairs to basement to look for JBR (Schiller 1999a: 44). This time is supported by Carnes (2003:14): "The Whites arrived at defendant's home at approximately 6:00 a.m., and Mr. White, alone, searched the basement within fifteen minutes of arrival. (SMF P 23; PSMF P 23.) Mr. White testified that when he began his search, the lights were already on in the basement and the door in the hallway leading to the basement "wine cellar" room was opened. (SMF P 25; PSMF P 25; White Dep. at 147, 151-52.)" (Carnes 2003:14).
After 6:06 AM Fleet White Searched Train Room. "He further testified that a window in the basement playroom was broken. (SMF P 26; PSMF P 26; White Dep. at 28, 152 & 154.) Under the broken window, Mr. White states there was a suitcase, along with a broken shard of glass. (SMF P 27; PSMF P 27; White Dep. at 28-29, 156-59, & 15 265.) He does not, however, remember whether the window was opened or closed. n11 (SMF P 28; PSMF P 28; White Dep. at 153.)" (Carnes 2003:14).
After 6:06 AM Fleet White Searched Wine Cellar Room. "Mr. White also opened the door to the wine cellar room, but he could not see anything inside because it was dark and he could not find the light switch. (SMF P 29; PSMF P 29; White Dep. at 159-61.)" (Carnes 2003:14).
Before 6:45 AM John Ramsey Calls Pilot. John Ramsey leaves message for his pilot Michael Archuleta who returns the call a few minutes later; Patsy answers the phone (Schiller 1999a:78).
6:45 AM Weiss, Barcklow and Reichenbach Arrive. BPD officers Barry Weiss, Sue Barcklow, and Sgt. Paul Reichenbach arrive at Ramsey house (Schiller 1999a:79); the search warrant affidavit confirms that Weiss was at the house when Arndt arrived at 8:00 AM (Byfield 1997:1).
6:45 AM Priscilla White called niece at White house (Schiller 1999a:44).
~7:00 AM Burke Ramsey is awakened and dressed (Schiller 1999a:45).
After 7:00 AM Rev. Hoverstock Arrived. Rev. Hoverstock from St. John's Episcopalian Church arrives at Ramsey house just before Burke left to go to White's house (Schiller 1999a:45); the search warrant affidavit states the pastor arrived "shortly after the note was found" (Byfield 1997:1).
After 7:00 AM Burke Ramsey Taken to Whites. Burke Ramsey is taken by Fleet White and John Fernie to pick up the Fernie children and then taken to the White's home (Schiller 1999a:45).
Between 7:00-8:00 AM John Ramsey Searched Basement. "at around ten a.m., Mr. Ramsey also searched the basement area alone. He testified he found the broken window partially open. (SMF P 30; PSMF P 30; J. Ramsey Dep. at 30.) Under the broken window, Mr. Ramsey also saw the same suitcase seen earlier by Mr. White. Mr. Ramsey testified that the suitcase belonged to his family, but was normally stored in a different place. (SMF P 31; 16 PSMF P 31; J. Ramsey Dep. at 17.) *1331 Mr. Ramsey then returned upstairs. Plaintiff Chris Wolf theorizes that Mr. Ramsey actually found JonBenét's body at this time. (PSDMF P 57.)" (Carnes 2003:14]. Internet poster Bluecrab claims he did more than just check the window. It appears that Carnes may have this time wrong. In his 1998 testimony, John Ramsey provides several different times for when he searched the basement on his own. He first states "It would have been that time period: seven to nine." (p. 155, lines 19-20) and later reiterates "it was probably some time between seven and nine" (p. 157, lines 12-13). When asked whether it was before or after Whites and Fernies arrived, John stated: "I think it was after, because they came fairly early" (p. 174, lines 1-2). He then reiterated: "The best I can do is, it was, I believe, after the police came. Because they had gone through the house before I figured out what I'm going to do. It was before ten o'clock. They had already done some preparation before that. So it would have been before. Probably before nine. So then somewhere between seven and nine." (p. 174, lines 5-11). But when reminded that the RN said a phone call would come between 8 and 10 AM, NOT 10-12 AM, as John had supposed, John made clear that he had visited the basement prior to that time since "When we were ready for the phone call and I was prepped about what I was going to say and I was getting the family ready. And so between that period of time we were just waiting for the phone call and I was near the phone. And I was either in the study or on the first floor. I just waiting for it." (p. 174, lines 22-25; p. 175, lines 1-3). In response to a query from Mike Kane, John Ramsey confirmed that his trip to the basement "would have been before that time period." (p. 175, lines 6-7). However, Internet poster Amber believes John must have visited the basement before either Fleet White or Officer French since he found a chair in front of the train room door and there's no good reason to believe White or French would have re-blocked the door with the chair after they entered the train room (which both did according to their own accounts). If so, John's trip would have been before 6:00 AM.
7:30 AM Ransom Amount Assembled. John Ramsey collected the $118,000 demanded in the ransom note (AngelFire timeline).
Prior to 8:00 AM Reichenbach Briefs Arndt and Patterson. Sgt. Reichenbach meets with BPD Detectives Linda Arndt and Fred Patterson at the Basemar Shopping Center to brief them on the case (Schiller 1999a:79).
[paste:font size="6"]Byfield 1997:1); she monitored incoming phone calls to the Ramsey residence from approximately 0800-1300 hours (Byfield 1997:2). Patterson's arrival time is not mentioned in the search warrant affidavit, but Schiller (1999a:10) has him arriving with Arndt at 8:10 AM. "Detective Arndt and Patterson arrived at the Ramsey house at 8:10 a.m., and Officer Rick French gave them an updated briefing." (Thomas 2000:22).
Time Unstated Advocates Brought Food. "Early that morning, police had called in a team of victims' advocates, trained in helping families through traumatic situations, who arrived with bagels and coffee." (Glick et al. 1998).
Time Unstated Police Tapped Phones. BPD followed standard procedure by putting taps inside the house and at John Ramsey's office (Glick et al. 1998).
Time Unstated Arndt Instructed John Ramsey. "Linda Arndt told John Ramsey what to say if the ransomer called: demand to talk to JonBenét. John Ramsey took notes. "Must talk to JB," he scribbled." (Glick et al., 1998).
Time Unstated Advocates Cleaned Kitchen. "After using the kitchen, the advocates began tidying it up, a law-enforcement official told NEWSWEEK. One friend helped clean the kitchen, wiping down the counters with a spray cleaner--and possibly wiping away important evidence." (Glick et al. 1998).
8:36 AM JAR and MR Board Plane. John Andrew and Melinda Ramsey borded a Delta flight to Minneapolis (AngelFire timeline).
~9:30 AM Sergeant Whitson Arrived. BPD Sergeant Bob Whitson arrived at house, entering through rear exterior kitchen door (Byfield 1997:4).
[paste:font size="6"]Byfield 1997:2). "Police reports also show that officers did little to protect the integrity of the crime scene. Believing the crime was a kidnapping, the cops cordoned off JonBenét's bedroom with yellow and black crime-scene tape to preserve whatever evidence her abductor may have left behind. But strangely, they didn't seal the rest of the house--also potentially part of the crime scene" (Glick et al. 1998).
Time Unstated "In the early afternoon, after the forensics team and other officers had packed up and left, Detective Arndt stayed behind to wait with the Ramseys." (Glick et al. 1998).
Before 1:00 PM Arndt Tells John Ramsey to Search House. "The mood in the house was quiet and tense. John Ramsey milled anxiously around the living room; Patsy sat virtually motionless in a chair. Arndt noted in her police report that she wanted to give John Ramsey something to do "to keep his mind occupied." She pulled Ramsey and friend Fleet White aside and told them to conduct a "top to bottom" search of the house to see if anything seemed amiss." (Glick et al. 1998).
[paste:font size="6"]Byfield 1997:2). Other accounts make no mention of Fernie. "Later that afternoon, Mr. Ramsey and Mr. White together returned to the basement at the suggestion of the Boulder Police. (SMF P 32; PSMF P 32; White Dep. at 212-217; J. Ramsey Dep. at 17-20.) During this joint search of the basement, the men first examined the playroom and observed the broken window. (SMF P 33; PSMF P 33.) The men next searched a shower stall located in the basement. (SMF P 34; PSMF P 34.) Mr. Ramsey then noticed a heavy fireplace grate propped in front of a closet and Mr. White moved the grate so the closet could be searched. (SMF P 35; PSMF P 35.) Upon finding nothing unusual in the closet, the men proceeded to the wine cellar room. Mr. Ramsey entered the room first, turned on the light and, upon discovery of JonBenét's dead body, he exclaimed "Oh my God, my baby." (SMF P 36, 37; PSMF P 36, 37; White Dep. at 162-63, 193-93.)Ramsey & Ramsey (2001:21) reports only that John took Fleet White to the basement.
1:05 PM JBR Body Found. "Mr. Ramsey entered the room first, turned on the light and, upon discovery of JonBenét's dead body, he exclaimed "Oh my God, my baby." (SMF P 36, 37; PSMF P 36, 37; White Dep. at 162-63, 193-93.)" (Carnes 2003:14). The time is listed as 1:05 in the Ramsey's account (Ramsey & Ramsey 2001:22). Newsweek reports John Ramsey as later stating ""All I could do was scream, to try to attract attention." he says." (Glick et al. 1998).
After 1:05 PM Duct Tape Removed. "JonBenét had black duct tape covering her mouth, a cord around her neck that was attached to a wooden garrote, and her hands were bound over her head in front of her; she was covered by a light-colored blanket. (SMF P 38; PSMF P 38.) ....Mr. Ramsey ripped the duct tape off JonBenét's mouth and attempted to untie her hands. (SMF P 39; PSMF P 39.)" (Carnes 2003:16-17).
~1:05 PM Fleet White Calls for Ambulance. "Within a few minutes" of going into basement, Fleet White came running upstairs, grabbed the telephone in the back office located on the first floor, and yelled for someone to call an ambulance (Byfield 1997:2). "Fleet White bounded up the stairs yelling for someone to "call 911."" (Glick et al. 1998).
1:05 PM Byfield Notified. BPD officer Jim Byfield is notified that JBR body had been found (Byfield 1997:1)
After 1:05 PM JBR Carried Upstairs "He then carried her body upstairs. (SMF P 39; PSMF P 39.)" (Carnes 2003:17). "Ramsey ripped the duct tape off JonBenét's mouth and carried her up the stairs, setting her down on the floor. Though it's unclear why, Arndt then picked up the body again and moved it to the living room near the Christmas tree where Ramsey knelt beside her, repeating "My little angel," over and over. Friends carried Patsy, too stunned to walk, over to the body. Police reports describe her throwing herself over JonBenét." (Glick et al. 1998).
After 1:05 PM Arndt Requested Backup. "Arndt quickly called for backup, declaring a "Code Black"--police lingo for murder--over the radio. The forensic team return to the house." (Glick et al. 1998).
After 1:05 PM Officers Weiss and Everett Arrive. Between 1:05 pm and 1:30 pm BPD officer Barry Weiss and Det. Michael Everett arrive at Ramseys (Schiller 1999a:21).
After 1:05 PM Everett Searched Basement. "After the discovery of the girl's body" Everett "walked through the basement area of the house to attempt to determine if any person were present in the basement" (Byfield 1997:2). This search includes the wine cellar (Schiller 1999a:21).
1:30 PM Walker and Mason Searched Basement. BPD officers Ron Walker and Larry Mason saw JonBenét's body in the living room and then searched the basement and the wine cellar; Mason decides to secure the house (Schiller 1999a:21).
1:30 PM Priscilla White Calls Niece. Priscilla White calls her niece at the White home, to report the murder (Schiller 1999a:46).
~1:30 PM John Calls Pilot. "Twenty minutes later after Arndt moves body, John is overheard placing a phone call to his pilot to ready the plane to head for Atlanta. Police instruct them not to leave town, so they stay at a friend's home in Boulder" (Crime Library timeline).
1:45 PM Ramseys Leave for Fernie's. The Ramseys left their home to stay with the Fernie's. Attorney friend Mike Bynum advised them to get lawyers (AngelFire timeline).
1:50 PM House Secured "It was only upon the discovery of JonBenét's body that the Boulder police began to secure properly the home as the crime scene. (SMF P 53; PSMF P 53.)" (Carnes 2003:17). Schiller lists the time this happened as 1:50 PM(1999a:23).
I don't think the parents were involved.
Patsy had just recovered from cancer. John had just lost his eldest daughter in a car accident.
After traumatic life changing events like that you don't go around killing your baby.
I do think they are a weird family.
Patsy had just recovered from cancer. John had just lost his eldest daughter in a car accident.
After traumatic life changing events like that you don't go around killing your baby.
I do think they are a weird family.
cabanafrau
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- May 10, 2006
I don't think they were involved either.
What makes you think they're so weird? The public only came to know them in the aftermath of hideous tragedy. That's gotta leave a mark.
pryncess527
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- May 26, 2013
Child pageants.
cabanafrau
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- May 10, 2006
I don't understand the appeal, but apparently there are those who do.
Wasn't Patsy a former beauty queen herself?
sunshinehighway
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2010
It seems that most of the theories that one of the Ramseys did it hang on her being hit on the head first. The show made a good case for her being strangled first. If she were strangled first and fighting back (fingernail marks under her chin) it was a very cold, brutal murder.
I think, and it's just my opinion, that she was accidentally injured by one of the family in a moment of anger/frustration (lots of stress going on in the family) or some sinister deed and then everything was staged to protect that person. I don't, in my own head, get how a wife can protect a husband in this kind of situation (nor a husband protect a wife) so I lean towards believing a child was being protected. Just my thoughts. And the chocolates in JBR's room...you ever heard about the box of chocolates?
Last edited:
Good grief no. My take that they are weird has NOTHING to do with child pageants. Nothing wrong with that at all.
For me there was just so many rumours about this that it probably just a misconception about them. I think they are innocent of her murder. But their reactions afterwards seemed little odd but then again I have no idea how I would react in the circumstance.
Just recently saw interview with John Ramsey and he seemed very nice. My viewpoint of them is probably skewed due to the surrounding weirdness of the case.
D
I live here. Jon Benet went to the neighborhood school. My son is the same age (although was not in the same classroom,) my old neighbor was one of the investgators, many people I know were friends of the Ramseys. Believe me when I say Cabanafrau is correct in that there has been a great game of telephone over the years.
Don't believe everything you see in the media. Their only goal is viewership and if that means taking liberties with the truth then so be it.
I live here. Jon Benet went to the neighborhood school. My son is the same age (although was not in the same classroom,) my old neighbor was one of the investgators, many people I know were friends of the Ramseys. Believe me when I say Cabanafrau is correct in that there has been a great game of telephone over the years.
I totally disagree. If I just lost my daughter in a car accident it would make me a lot LESS likely to hurt my remaining child out of anger/frustration.
If I finally was in remission from cancer which almost took me away from my beloved children I would cherish every moment with them after spending a wonderful Christmas day with them and with $100,000+ in the bank.
John gave similar timeline on show. What parts do you think are false?
Remember they had to be up at the crack of dawn to fly out to visit family. Christmastime is stressful to any family. They had been running all day (and all week- JBR was in show at mall and concert at school and John had work function and they had party at the home and she always did some Christmas open house thing...all this the Ramsey's confirmed on show). Then there was potty issues with JBR. Lots of stress.
Share this page
-
See This Incredible Green Twist on Disney's Stuffed Toys!
-
Pixar Fest Fun at Disneyland - Parade, Fireworks & More!
-
Full Guide to Food for 2024 Asian American & Pacific Islander Heritage Month
-
Walt Disney World Bounce Back Offer Can Save You 25-35%
-
Tokyo Disneyland to Replace Buzz Lightyear with Wreck-It Ralph Attraction
GET A DISNEY VACATION QUOTE
Dreams Unlimited Travel is committed to providing you with the very best vacation planning experience possible. Our Vacation Planners are experts and will share their honest advice to help you have a magical vacation.
Let us help you with your next Disney Vacation!
Dreams Unlimited Travel is committed to providing you with the very best vacation planning experience possible. Our Vacation Planners are experts and will share their honest advice to help you have a magical vacation.
Let us help you with your next Disney Vacation!
