"Is College a Lousy Investment?" (Newsweek)

[MrsPete]

Vocational training is great for those who have the aptitude and desire. I would not mind saying "my daughter, the plumber" but my girls have no desire to go that way. They are very academic in their orientation. I am not sure if college will be a good FINANCIAL investment for my children (DDs are 19 and 13), but I can guarantee that I will not consider it a waste of money.

Plus, people tend to go straight to "plumber" when they want to give an example of a high-paying job that can be achieved through hard work and on-the-job-training. It's ALWAYS the example. Even if we all buy into the trade-school or vocational concept, our kids can't ALL go out and become plumbers. Other jobs in this same category -- electrician, auto mechanic, etc. -- pay better than low-skill jobs like cashier or waitress, but they will not equal that golden example, the plumber.

Like your daughter, mine are both very academic and I'm sure college is in their future; however, if they were interested in something vocational, I would push them to learn the trade . . . AND ALSO to learn something about business. The guy who starts out as an electrician's helper and moves up to master electrician -- he'll do okay for himself. But the guy who starts his own business as an electrician, who eventually owns a small fleet of vans, each staffed with that master electrician and his helper -- that's the guy who's making more than most college grads. And as he ages, he isn't out there doing the manual labor himself; rather, he's in the office taking orders, managing his crews, and making money from each and every one of his trucks. If my girls weren't college-bound, I'd encourage them in that direction. No, not specifically electrician, but owning a service business.

 

[MrsPete]

In my school district 76% of high school graduates in 2012 were going on to a 4 year college compared to 20%, when I graduated so there are definitely more bachelor's degrees out there thus the lower demand and lower pay scale. With so many then going on to get their Master's degrees, soon you will need a PhD to compete in the job market in certain careers. So for many young adults, a trade school would be a better paying, more marketable option.

Key phrase: "were going on to a 4 year college". Being accepted to college, enrolling in college, beginning college . . . is a far cry from finishing and actually having a degree. I could give you a long list of kids I know personally who had the intelligence, but who didn't have the staying power or who were hit hard by life's circumstances and quit (my first roommate and one of my brothers would be on that list).

If 76% of the kids in your district actually finish college, you're in an unusual city. I teach high school, so I can tell you with certainty: High schools care about preparing kids for college and getting them accepted to college. Once they're out the doors, we don't keep track of them anymore. We do not have statistics about how many of our graduates go on to be successful in college. I provided a link to the US Census to show how many American adults have four-year degrees -- that's a reliable source.

I do not believe that more and more education will be required for certain jobs. Rather, I agree with the experts who say the bubble is bursting. I think fewer and fewer people will be going to college because of the cost -- or, to put it differently, I think the people who had no business going in the first place are going to stop enrolling. I think college enrollments are going to roll back to something like when I was a teen in the 80s:

I attended a small high school out in the sticks. Of the 130 graduates in my year, only about 20 of us went on to college. Most of us who started college, finished college. I think it's because back then everyone wasn't pushed in that direction. Only those of us who really had the ability and drive to succeed academically went to college. It was much more acceptable to parents to see their kids move straight into the work force then -- and kids who expected to go to work after high school weren't made to feel like outcasts or losers, which is somewhat true today. Today I hear quite a few kids say, "I'm really tired of school and can't see myself putting in four more years, but my dad insists that I try one semester and see how college goes."

 

[MrsPete]

I like your way of putting that. I may just have to steal it. I can't ever seem to phrase that position so clearly, and I seem to be saying it a lot these days... every time someone says "If you want (health insurance, sick time, maternity leave, a livable wage, etc) you should get an education and get a job that offers those things." We will always need all those jobs that everyone thinks are beneath them, and one person getting out of that situation doesn't change the situation as a whole.

But the person who leaves high school and becomes a ditch digger isn't required to remain a ditch digger (with low salary and no benefits) all his life. If he's got some gumption, he'll say, "Wow, I chose badly. This job sucks, and it's not going to get better as I grow older. I'm going to get myself some job training while I"m still young so I can do better for myself." It's not hard for the person who realizes that high school really wasn't "enough" to look around and find job training at the community colleges, vocational schools, even the military.

 

[lizabu]

.....
True, and I still believe that's a shame. We've killed vocational programs at the high school level in pursuit of this college for all pipe dream, and colleges have brought traditionally low-cost training methods like apprenticeships under their umbrella so even those things come at a price now. The days of working one's way up are pretty much gone, and our kids have a harder road than we did to earning any sort of decent living.

The part about vocational training really rang true for me. I live in a fairly large city and it had 2 vocational schools. One is on the way to being closed and the other is quite far from my home. Both my boys weren't very interested in college. The each ended up moving to another city to live with my ex husband when they reached high school age because he has a pretty decent vocational school near his home. My oldest is now 17 and graduated high school in June with 2 or his welding tickets. He has gone on to start his apprenticeship. As an apprentice he is already making 2 or 3 times what most of his friends make. The younger boy is just starting grade 9 this year and wants to be a plumber. They have a decent course for plumbing. Seeing what my oldest has done so far I have faith the younger boy will do well too. It hasn't been easy. Last year in grade 8 when the teacher was asking kids what they wanted to do my son said a plumber and everyone in his class started laughing until the teacher told them plumbers make good money and not to laugh. I also get the judgy eye rolls from other parents when I tell them what my boys are doing or wanting to do.

 

[punkin]

Plus, people tend to go straight to "plumber" when they want to give an example of a high-paying job that can be achieved through hard work and on-the-job-training. It's ALWAYS the example. Even if we all buy into the trade-school or vocational concept, our kids can't ALL go out and become plumbers. Other jobs in this same category -- electrician, auto mechanic, etc. -- pay better than low-skill jobs like cashier or waitress, but they will not equal that golden example, the plumber.

Like your daughter, mine are both very academic and I'm sure college is in their future; however, if they were interested in something vocational, I would push them to learn the trade . . . AND ALSO to learn something about business. The guy who starts out as an electrician's helper and moves up to master electrician -- he'll do okay for himself. But the guy who starts his own business as an electrician, who eventually owns a small fleet of vans, each staffed with that master electrician and his helper -- that's the guy who's making more than most college grads. And as he ages, he isn't out there doing the manual labor himself; rather, he's in the office taking orders, managing his crews, and making money from each and every one of his trucks. If my girls weren't college-bound, I'd encourage them in that direction. No, not specifically electrician, but owning a service business.

To tell you the truth, I have no idea if plumbers make more than electricians. I just picked the example out of thin air...but I do agree with your post.

 

[shalom]

Those stats include EVERYONE without a degree. Were they only to include people with vocational traIning, tech school, trade unions, family businesses and military the discrepancy would not be the same.

Exactly. And there are some charts that break it down. For professional health careers, your income rises systematically with your education, and the guys at the top are earning WAY more than the lower levels . OTOH, in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math) careers, that progression is not nearly so neat and tidy, with much smaller changes between degrees and those with Professional degrees earning less than someone with a Master's or Doctorate, and only a tad more than someone with a Bachelor's degree).

And earnings vary at the same level of education. STEM people who've only got a high school diploma do better than college grads in pretty much every other category except medical and business management.

It's not, "Is college a lousy investment?" it's, first: "What are you going to college for?" And second, "If you're going to college so you can make more money, is that the best choice?" I knew my college wasn't going to pay off financially, so I treated it the way I would a vacation -- I paid cash upfront. The problem is when people assume college is a financial investment, and borrow money on the assumption that it'll "pay for itself."

In my state 26.5% of all adults over 25 have a bachelor's degree, and a scant 8.8% have a degree above a bachelor's. That's hardly "dime a dozen" or "saturated".

But someone who graduates from college at 25 is not competing against "all adults over 25" -- they're competing against people roughly their own age and experience. If there are a large percentage of people of that age and experience who're also college grads, then people with bachelor's degrees really are a "dime a dozen," at least right there.

Although in the U.S., moving can make a huge difference in your odds. A while back I was looking at historic unemployment rates across the U.S., and was shocked to discover that, when and where I was in my twenties, was doing dismally compared to the rest of the country. I've always known that job opportunities can vary from place to place, and that there are often more in the city than in the country (although North Dakota was in the midst of a job boom after 2009), but I was surprised to discover that sometimes moving 100 miles or less, switching to another city of roughly the same size, can make a huge difference in someone's job prospects.

 

[PatriciaH]

I think if you can graduate with little to no debt (loans) it is a good investment. I thought college was a big money making business when I was going (1988) and it is worse now! My high school was harder than my college. Our friends at Johns Hopkins went to class when they felt like it because a teachers asst. taught most of their classes. Many degrees are a joke now. Law is so hard to get into now (a good position.) My DH has 3 degrees and makes $30k less than our friend with 1 year of college at the same company (he has been there longer and told DH about his job.) Our friend admits he does barely anything all day but they made up a VP position for him because at the time he was the only one that knew about all the computer systems. Go figure. So I guess it depends on the situation. Maybe start your own company and do your own thing. I do.

 

[Colleen27]

But the person who leaves high school and becomes a ditch digger isn't required to remain a ditch digger (with low salary and no benefits) all his life. If he's got some gumption, he'll say, "Wow, I chose badly. This job sucks, and it's not going to get better as I grow older. I'm going to get myself some job training while I"m still young so I can do better for myself." It's not hard for the person who realizes that high school really wasn't "enough" to look around and find job training at the community colleges, vocational schools, even the military.

True, but there will be someone right behind him to fill the job of ditch digger (or cashier, or waitress, or call center operator, and on and on). We can't all be chiefs; we need an awful lot of people to remain Indians. Too many to dismiss concerns over wages, benefits, and the cost of living with a wave of the hand and an admonition to get an education.

Plus, people tend to go straight to "plumber" when they want to give an example of a high-paying job that can be achieved through hard work and on-the-job-training. It's ALWAYS the example. Even if we all buy into the trade-school or vocational concept, our kids can't ALL go out and become plumbers. Other jobs in this same category -- electrician, auto mechanic, etc. -- pay better than low-skill jobs like cashier or waitress, but they will not equal that golden example, the plumber.

Most trades have an opportunity for a good living, though. Electricians and auto mechanics might not make as much as plumbers (though if the plumber isn't self-employed they might) but they make enough to build a middle class life on.

 

[ExPirateShopGirl]

The really expensive, elite private universities meet 100% of a student's demonstrated financial need in the way of scholarships and grants. They are rarely merit-based. Which is why they are so ridiculously difficult to get into. They're worth it....

Paying for a college that costs $200,000+ is not realistic for most people.

 

[dinajay]

That's a tough one- I have encouraged both my children to go to College- I am hoping that with a college degree they will have an easier path than my husband and I did. But if they decide to go to trade school because they do not feel that college is for them I will accept that as well. But they have to do one or the other

 

[crisi]

Plus, people tend to go straight to "plumber" when they want to give an example of a high-paying job that can be achieved through hard work and on-the-job-training. It's ALWAYS the example. Even if we all buy into the trade-school or vocational concept, our kids can't ALL go out and become plumbers. Other jobs in this same category -- electrician, auto mechanic, etc. -- pay better than low-skill jobs like cashier or waitress, but they will not equal that golden example, the plumber.

Like your daughter, mine are both very academic and I'm sure college is in their future; however, if they were interested in something vocational, I would push them to learn the trade . . . AND ALSO to learn something about business. The guy who starts out as an electrician's helper and moves up to master electrician -- he'll do okay for himself. But the guy who starts his own business as an electrician, who eventually owns a small fleet of vans, each staffed with that master electrician and his helper -- that's the guy who's making more than most college grads. And as he ages, he isn't out there doing the manual labor himself; rather, he's in the office taking orders, managing his crews, and making money from each and every one of his trucks. If my girls weren't college-bound, I'd encourage them in that direction. No, not specifically electrician, but owning a service business.

My parents neighbor is an HVAC guy. Started out installing heating and airconditioning. Bought a truck. He's selling the business for $10M this year. And their income isn't small.

He did not get a college degree. But his wife did and she did a lot of the early office work until he hired an office staff. He hasn't installed an air conditioner in 20 years himself.

 

[nunzia]

My kids are all doing well and each make more than my DH who has a Vet Tech degree and been in the field almost 20 years (2nd career). My eldest had an art scholarship which he was foolish and blew..then after growing up went back and struggled through and is a graphic artist and art director who with bonuses is approaching 100K (2 year degree) my daughter was brilliant and had huge goals but also rebeled and had a kid at 17..she never gave up, got scholarship after scholarship piecemeal and graduated with honors with very little debt with a BS in Nursing (she did have to continue to school while pregnant with her second so she didn't lose a NM Lottery Scholarship and take a Chemistry test 2 days after her daughter was born). My younger son is not a school kinda guy and did mulitudes of jobs: 21 Dealer, Car Salesman, Construction..then went to the Police Acaemy and had highest acadmic honors. Surprise! you are smart after all and he makes as a ploice officer about what my DH makes before overtime. So here we are..2-2-year degrees, one of them the highest family earner, 2-4 year degrees (DD and me) and I am the lowest income producer of all (to be fair I don't work in my field) and one...I don't know what Police Academy is considered..Vocational training? So... many, many choices can work.

 

[shinysparklybubbles]

My husband was not into school and knew college was not for him. He paid $2,700 went to the CDL class offered at the vocational school and got his CDL and his endorsements. His benefits are great, he is paid well and trucking will never be outsourced, nor will people stop buying food, paper goods, etc. all things that get hauled from shippers to suppliers etc.

My SIL went to college and got an art degree. She currently works retail because she can't find a job. My in laws paid a ton for her degree for her to make $9 an hour...

 

[bethy]

From what I've sometimes seen in my circles people don't always go to college because they want to make a specific investment in their career of choice. I've seen plenty of kids go to college simply because it's something to "do". Basically, it extends their childhood. Sometime's it's the kid's aim to extend childhood and sometimes it's the parents' goal, too.