"Is College a Lousy Investment?" (Newsweek)

[Colleen27]

Mike Rowe is regarded as positively God-like in our home. His whole outlook and beliefs mirror ours. Our DS who just turned 18 was fortunate enough to watch the show during his early formidable H.S. years and took advantage of shop classes in school etc., I am sure because he was so entertained by Mr. Rowe, he saw a fun side to the practicality of it. The guy is beyond entertaining and draws his audience in by being a regular guy (quite easy on the eyes as well ) anyways, I wish John Ratzenburger's Made in America was still on as well.

I would vote for Mike Rowe for President, I really would.

DS14 all but worships him, and I'm glad for it. There are two things that I credit for DS finally having some academic motivation and a plan for life, and those things are football and Dirty Jobs. The former because it gave him a reason to care about his grades and the latter because it (and Mike Rowe's website) showed him that there are ways to make a good living without 4 more years in a classroom or an entire adult life in an office.

I agree. As a parent I consider it a good investment, and an investment worth a bit of sacrifice, for both my kids. For two reasons - first being that we can do it with minimal debt.

The second is a biggie to me. Grades. If my kids weren't A/B students, I'd be encouraging them to go a different direction.

That's a good point too, and just listening to the kids' interests sorted that out for us without thinking about it. DS works his butt off for Cs and wants a more hands-on experience for higher education. DD is a straight-A student in accelerated classes and is very much looking forward to the academic challenge of a selective college.

We're hoping our planning will allow the kids to follow the path most appropriate for them with little or no debt. Each of the kids has a 4 year pre-paid tuition contract, and our college savings are enough that if they attend a state college we should be able to cover the rest between savings and cash-flow. Private university might be dicey, though, depending on what kind of aid is offered, and that's the route DD has set her sights on at this point. I will strongly discourage that path if it means anything more than very small loans. There are too many good state options, including one of the so-called "public Ivies", available to her without starting off life in debt.

 

[MINNIEmeetsTINK]

I graduated college a little over a year ago. I attended a medium sized state college with about half of my tuition covered due to good grades and financial need. I graduated with about $18,000 in debt and I feel it necessary to add that I worked about 40hours a week throughout college (to cover food, gas, car insurance, ect.) and studied abroad in Spain for 6weeks. Currently I am working in 2 jobs outside of my degree making about the same amount I made while waiting tables in college.

1. If given the chance the only thing I would change about my college career is that I wouldn't have worked 40hours a week and would've been more involved in college activities.

2. For me college was definatly worth it as I learned so much about myself and other people/cultures than I would have had I stayed in my small town and went to our Community College.

3. I'm considering going back and getting a Masters as I hope this will provide a better opportunity for a job than my Bachelors has.

4. My BF is currently at a Community College studying Engineering and will make far more money than I will even with a Masters.

 

[Dreamer7787]

I think that high schools should have a required class on what college means. Students need to be more prepared for what loans mean and the outlook on different fields. I also think encouraging student to take sometime off in between high school and college is a very good idea.

I chose my undergraduate major when I was 16 (creative writing). I was halfway through the program when reality hit and I realized it wasn't the wisest major. Being the first person in my family to go to college my parents had no clue about loans and I just trusted councilors who told me the loans would be worth it. I chose to go on to grad school for Library and Info Science and that turned out to be a bust too.

Two years later I'm working three part time jobs and making no where near what I "should" be even with working 50+ hours a week and I have almost $50K left to pay in loans. By hey at least I'm not a cashier anymore like I was last year at this time. The majority of my friends are working retail positions. Most have bachelors and a few have masters. Only one is working in the field he went to school for.

 

[lizabu]

I think the author has a point. So many people have degrees nowadays it doesn't really set you ahead of the other candidates. I work in a call center where the starting wage is min. wage. At least half the people who work there have degrees. At one time having a degree was a guarantee of a bright future. Not so anymore.

 

[disykat]

I think that high schools should have a required class on what college means.

I actually think the opposite! While I do think this should be included in a personal finance class on understanding debt, our district requires a "college and beyond" class in junior high and I hate it! The whole class preaches that everyone should go to college. Exactly the opposite of what we're talking about in this thead.

When I was growing up, we had a class called "careers" and a class called "personal finance." Now, with districts facing issues if their students aren't all college ready, they seemed to have dropped those and are focusing on a "go to college" message.

 

[Dreamer7787]

I actually think the opposite! While I do think this should be included in a personal finance class on understanding debt, our district requires a "college and beyond" class in junior high and I hate it! The whole class preaches that everyone should go to college. Exactly the opposite of what we're talking about in this thead.

When I was growing up, we had a class called "careers" and a class called "personal finance." Now, with districts facing issues if their students aren't all college ready, they seemed to have dropped those and are focusing on a "go to college" message.

Oh no! I definitely agree the "college is for everyone" thing is not right. Sorry should have explained myself better. I think it should be a class that examines all options. More of a is "college right for you?" class that explains the ins and outs. But with how college obsessed everything's become I supposed that would be asking too much.

 

[MrsPete]

College is a fantastic investment . . . if the situation is right:

If you choose a major that will lead to a job.
If you choose a school that you can afford without debt.
If you are a strong student who can handle the coursework.

 

[tasha99]

No debt is best, but not all debt is bad. $20,000 for a fine arts degree is worse to me than $200,000 debt for medical school.

 

[TaraCavin]

I agree with the other posters, college is not for everyone. I have over 100k in student loans and no prospect of using my education degree. Thank god I am making money as a travel agent. I should of picked a better field for my graduate and undergraduate classes.

 

[reginaastralis]

My mom and I have been having this conversation about my baby sister for awhile now. My parents didn't have enough money to give my brother and I any sort of footing when it came to school. I went to school for one year, bombed it (ended up working more than 40 hours a week serving on the night shift) and dropped out. My brother went on to the Navy.

Flash forward, now I'm more than a grown up and back in school, and working my bumm off. It's worth it. My brother, however, took his GI Bill and completely bombed. My family was so certain he'd graduate before me, since I (was working), going to school full time, and raising my family. He's now in a trade school, and fingers crossed, he'll pass it this time.

So there is the kid sister, who just started high school this year. My parents have been able to pay for two years of community college, but they told her her goal is to take as many AP courses in high school to graduate with most of her two year degree. Then, since she should have a high enough GPA for Bright Futures, she would end up getting to cash out her college fund, or use it to fund going to an out of town school. Kid sister though, she wants to be a musician, more specifically, she wants to play in a symphonic orchestra. She's told me, sheepishly, that college might not be worth it for her. I've told her she needs to think about a career that she might like, just in case the whole symphonic orchestra gig doesn't work out, she needs a plan b. My mom, however, has told her under no uncertain terms she HAS to go to college. Obviously mom hasn't learned by watching the two older kids completely fail.

 

[littlebit0863]

When it comes time, I am going to encourage DD12 to go the trade school route if that seems more logical for what she is interested in. My parents were all about college, college, college - if you were interested in something that didn't require college, well then you needed to change your interest to something that did! That was how the next generation was supposed to do better than the last. So my father would probably be flabbergasted at my willingness to send my daughter to trade school if he were still alive. But times have changed.

I don't blame you one bit. I have a 2 year associates and make $30k a year being an office manager, and most of that is on bonuses. DH went to a 3 month trade school, signed a 2 year contract with a company who paid for most of his school, invested $1000 in tools, and now makes over triple what I make. If your dd has a particular interest and is good at what she does, trade school can definitely be the way to go.

 

[OThopeful35]

I agree that college is not for everyone and now some of the degrees that were once money makers are no longer so because they are flooded with people. Here in the bay area, one nursing position gets hundreds of applicants. There are still new grads that graduated in 2008 who have not worked as nurses because there are too many of them and they are not being hired. I have a friend who has a RN degree and she is still working as an admitting clerk because the hospital is not hiring nurses that do not have experience.

Some advertisements for nursing jobs even say "No New Grads" So I am currently a nursing student but thankfully I already work in a hospital and my aunt is the Director of Nursing. In my class 50% of the students have degrees in other fields but either could not find work or kept getting laid off. One lady had just graduated with an accounting degree 2 months before she started the nursing program.

 

[talulabelle]

College is a bum deal and a waste of money for many who approach it incorrectly. FOr example, my SIL and BIL are on the verge of bankrupcy, she has lost her job, and they are spending $50,000 a year (well, there is financial aid involved and a ridiculous amount of student loans) to send their daughter to a private small college near where they live. It is a school that I have never heard of before my neice went there. It is a good school, but just not on the national radar and small, private and pricey. She could have gone to Penn State on instate tuition and scholarships that would have made her cost about $5,000 a year. ALso, when she graduates and applies for a job, any employer in the nation would know Penn State.

She is majoring in Spanish with the hopes of becoming a spanish teacher. It is wonderful that she wants to be a teacher, but if she is lucky and gets a job upon graduation, her starting salary will be under $40,000 a year before taxes. After taxes , she is looking at about $25,000 which she must live on. How the heck is she supposed to pay down the debt before she is 40? All to get an education degree that she could have gotten for one tenth the money and paid in full? When we tried to explain this to SIL and neice when they were making thier decision, neice whined and said, "but Penn State is so big, and I want to go to a small school" her parents did what ever it took to make her happy. I don't think her diploma will be as good for her as one from Penn State would be. She is saddling herself with dept all so that she can go to a small school? I don't get it. To me, a larger school just means they have more to offer. You still find your small group in your major, or your dorm, or your sorority....but there are just more small groups to choose from. Something for everyone.

To me, it's wrong for a school to take the money of a student when they can't guarantee the child will be better for it....however it is a free country, which means people are free to be stupid and selfish sometimes. Neice will be paying for this mistake for most her life, all for 4 quick years of being in her "preferred environment"

SO of course collge is a bum deal alot of the time, if you approach it in that manner. But, for the many, who go to a good budget State school and approach it more like a business decision rather than a childish decision...they will be better for it.

 

[cornflake]

College is a bum deal and a waste of money for many who approach it incorrectly. FOr example, my SIL and BIL are on the verge of bankrupcy, she has lost her job, and they are spending $50,000 a year (well, there is financial aid involved and a ridiculous amount of student loans) to send their daughter to a private small college near where they live. It is a school that I have never heard of before my neice went there. It is a good school, but just not on the national radar and small, private and pricey. She could have gone to Penn State on instate tuition and scholarships that would have made her cost about $5,000 a year. ALso, when she graduates and applies for a job, any employer in the nation would know Penn State.

She is majoring in Spanish with the hopes of becoming a spanish teacher. It is wonderful that she wants to be a teacher, but if she is lucky and gets a job upon graduation, her starting salary will be under $40,000 a year before taxes. After taxes , she is looking at about $25,000 which she must live on. How the heck is she supposed to pay down the debt before she is 40? All to get an education degree that she could have gotten for one tenth the money and paid in full? When we tried to explain this to SIL and neice when they were making thier decision, neice whined and said, "but Penn State is so big, and I want to go to a small school" her parents did what ever it took to make her happy. I don't think her diploma will be as good for her as one from Penn State would be. She is saddling herself with dept all so that she can go to a small school? I don't get it. To me, a larger school just means they have more to offer. You still find your small group in your major, or your dorm, or your sorority....but there are just more small groups to choose from. Something for everyone.

To me, it's wrong for a school to take the money of a student when they can't guarantee the child will be better for it....however it is a free country, which means people are free to be stupid and selfish sometimes. Neice will be paying for this mistake for most her life, all for 4 quick years of being in her "preferred environment"

SO of course collge is a bum deal alot of the time, if you approach it in that manner. But, for the many, who go to a good budget State school and approach it more like a business decision rather than a childish decision...they will be better for it.

Why do you think Penn would be a better degree for her? It's not particularly academically rigorous, it's not known for ed (or language), afaik...?

I totally disagree that a big scholl is just more to offer. The environment, the classes, etc., are totally different. People like a big school, people hate a big school; if you're going to be living there for four years, taking classes, etc., you're not going to do well if it's an environment you hate.

As well, some people do fine on their own, some need more help, interaction with professors, and that's generally stuff you cannot get at a big school - Penn is HUGE.

In general, I'm of the 'education has inherent value' crowd. Besides that though, as many have noted in the thread, a Bachelor's isn't anything special anymore.

To me, that dosen't mean it's less important to have one, it mean it's MORE important. It's so basic now that you need it for anything but trade or a life of menial jobs - which is fine if that's what someone wants but I don't think most people do.

The people I know who regret their loans are lawyers who went into altruistic practice or none.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

College is a bum deal and a waste of money for many who approach it incorrectly. FOr example, my SIL and BIL are on the verge of bankrupcy, she has lost her job, and they are spending $50,000 a year (well, there is financial aid involved and a ridiculous amount of student loans) to send their daughter to a private small college near where they live. It is a school that I have never heard of before my neice went there. It is a good school, but just not on the national radar and small, private and pricey. She could have gone to Penn State on instate tuition and scholarships that would have made her cost about $5,000 a year. ALso, when she graduates and applies for a job, any employer in the nation would know Penn State.

She is majoring in Spanish with the hopes of becoming a spanish teacher. It is wonderful that she wants to be a teacher, but if she is lucky and gets a job upon graduation, her starting salary will be under $40,000 a year before taxes. After taxes , she is looking at about $25,000 which she must live on. How the heck is she supposed to pay down the debt before she is 40? All to get an education degree that she could have gotten for one tenth the money and paid in full? When we tried to explain this to SIL and neice when they were making thier decision, neice whined and said, "but Penn State is so big, and I want to go to a small school" her parents did what ever it took to make her happy. I don't think her diploma will be as good for her as one from Penn State would be. She is saddling herself with dept all so that she can go to a small school? I don't get it. To me, a larger school just means they have more to offer. You still find your small group in your major, or your dorm, or your sorority....but there are just more small groups to choose from. Something for everyone.

To me, it's wrong for a school to take the money of a student when they can't guarantee the child will be better for it....however it is a free country, which means people are free to be stupid and selfish sometimes. Neice will be paying for this mistake for most her life, all for 4 quick years of being in her "preferred environment"

SO of course collge is a bum deal alot of the time, if you approach it in that manner. But, for the many, who go to a good budget State school and approach it more like a business decision rather than a childish decision...they will be better for it.

Many of the issues you've raised were discussed here recently.

 

[kamik86]

I agree with everyone else that says it really depends on your major. Honestly I have no idea what I would have done if I hadn't gone to college but I went to college as a software engineer for 5 years for my BS (program was 5 years because it required a year of paid work experience, so I only paid for 4 years and got paid for 1)

Then I graduated and got a job making 60K a year. In an area where the median household income is 45K a year. 3 years later in a bad economy and I'm still up to 67K so I don't think I'm doing too bad. I took out 20K in student loans to do this. I'm able to make my payments and the small ($50 a month) ones for my husbands certificate school he didn't use (he works at target) still go on vacations and I'm buying a house. So I definitely think it was a good investment for me.

However i minored in business and I know some of the actual business majors that were graduating the year I did were scared to graduate because they couldn't find jobs. That fear wasn't over in the computing and engineering sections of campus though, most of the serious students there jobs lined up well before graduating some for over 6 months.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I agree that college is not for everyone and now some of the degrees that were once money makers are no longer so because they are flooded with people. Here in the bay area, one nursing position gets hundreds of applicants. There are still new grads that graduated in 2008 who have not worked as nurses because there are too many of them and they are not being hired. I have a friend who has a RN degree and she is still working as an admitting clerk because the hospital is not hiring nurses that do not have experience.

Some advertisements for nursing jobs even say "No New Grads" So I am currently a nursing student but thankfully I already work in a hospital and my aunt is the Director of Nursing. In my class 50% of the students have degrees in other fields but either could not find work or kept getting laid off. One lady had just graduated with an accounting degree 2 months before she started the nursing program.

Nurses will always be needed to take care of sick people. I still wouldn't discourage anyone who's really interested in becoming a nurse from pursuing that path - but I would tell them to be careful about the program they choose and that they might not come into a job as easily as previous generations of nurses have, at least not for a while.

Theoretically, the nursing "shortage" as we've always known it - i.e. nurses needed to replace those who'll be "retiring" - hasn't gone away. Current nurses, whose average age is in the late 40's - even if they can't afford to retire, at some point will be leaving nursing and/or dying off. Newer nurses will be needed to replace them. That hasn't changed. What has changed is that hospitals and other medical facilities have had to close beds, tighten belts, freeze hiring and such during this economy and many experienced nurses who'd stopped working went back to work in droves, displacing newer nurses that, but for a better economy, would have been hired.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...u-s-is-over-temporarily-researchers-find.html

Your friend who works in the Admitting dept is smart to stick around. She will eventually find a position. Where I work virtually all of the new hires have been students who've worked with us during school. Some have stayed on as aides for a long time until something opened up. (People still leave and change hours and positions, as always.) Arm yourself with good credentials, work related experience, and excellent references, and be willing to take whatever job you can find for a while, and things should be better in a few years. Historically it's waxed and waned but the basic premise doesn't change: sick people need RNs to manage care for them, and that care has gotten more complex and regulated than ever. The need for RNs will never go away completely.

Good luck.

PS I wouldn't encourage anyone to go into nursing "for the money".

 

[talulabelle]

Why do you think Penn would be a better degree for her? It's not particularly academically rigorous, it's not known for ed (or language), afaik...?

I totally disagree that a big scholl is just more to offer. The environment, the classes, etc., are totally different. People like a big school, people hate a big school; if you're going to be living there for four years, taking classes, etc., you're not going to do well if it's an environment you hate.

As well, some people do fine on their own, some need more help, interaction with professors, and that's generally stuff you cannot get at a big school - Penn is HUGE.

In general, I'm of the 'education has inherent value' crowd. Besides that though, as many have noted in the thread, a Bachelor's isn't anything special anymore.

To me, that dosen't mean it's less important to have one, it mean it's MORE important. It's so basic now that you need it for anything but trade or a life of menial jobs - which is fine if that's what someone wants but I don't think most people do.

The people I know who regret their loans are lawyers who went into altruistic practice or none.

I think Penn would have been better for her because it is one tenth the cost. ALthough she is in a cozy environment now, I'm sure she won't think that 4 years of that is worth it in a few more years when she sees what is left of her paycheck after loan payments. She might as well skip college and work at McDonalds and make the same money.

I think it would be better because ask anyone in the nation outside of Lancaster PA if they have heard of Penn State, then ask them if they have heard of ETown. Not saying Penn is Ivy league or anything, but it is a good school, a great deal when you are in state. Any employer in the nation knows who they are. I have no idea why you say they are not known for education or language. They have great departments in both majors. It is a large university and has many majors. While not focusing in either of these things soley, they offer great programs in both.

As I said earlier, some might be scared off my a large university, but once you are there (I went ot a large university) your world is smaller than the school. Maybe it would be the perfect fit for her for 4 years, but looking at a lifetime of loan payments, yes it is better for her.

Being 18, she absolutely can't fathom the impact these loans will have on her future.

 

[FINFAN]

I am not sure anymore how applicable this is, but it used to be having the degree also meant the ability to move up in a company over an employee who did not have higher education, as in 2 matched employees up for a promotion, the one with the higher education would more than likely be the first choice, at least to interview for it. Now a lot of companies no longer have much by way of loyalty, need to cut the bottom line, have 1 employee do the work of 2 or even 3~I see a larger mix of who gets the promotion. However, I still feel the degree is a benefit overall, but how one goes about getting it, to me the least costly investment for the piece of paper is best, as long as the student emerges marketable and competitive in their field. The number one benefit in my book these days is the connections that are made thru education for networking. Professors, career centers, alumni...all need to be tapped to land a job. I know 4 year schools /Greek life etc tend to take care of their own Alumni, which is good, but schools that can offer internship connections, flexibility and professors who have recent experience working in he major/field (that one is going to study in )is now key to me, more than only earning a degree. My DD did the private school, specific to her major, is doing fine. My DS is taking the Community College route as of now, but has options there to obtain a 4 year, transfer, or go the trade route...or I can also see him getting his Associates, working and then finishing up the BA. For both? I see the connections as being as valuable as the education part, honestly. Linked in is as powerful as a whole year of education these days.

 

[nunzia]

I think there's a lot of truth to it. Most of my childhood friends went to college and earned degrees. Few have seen any real benefit to it. And the issue the article raises about "credentialism" is certainly dead-on; jobs that never used to require college now do, not because the skills needed to do the job are taught there but as a way of filtering the mountain of applications to a more manageable pile. Heck, in this economy Starbucks could probably get away with requiring at least an associates and still have an oversupply of baristas.

We are graduating FAR more young adults than we have jobs requiring higher education. The logical consequence of that in a market economy is that the value of the degree is diminished. Still we continue to push ridiculous ideas like "college for all", even at the expense of technical and vocational training for fields in which there are growing shortages, while the very idea that a 4 year education isn't always the right choice is pretty much dismissed as nonsense.

Amen...well said. Many great careers do not need a college education and many degrees are not worth much in the job field. It's like the housing bubble..now it's an education bubble.
I've seen too many friends pay outrageous sums to send their kids to school for things like Theater Make-up and Interior design. Yes, some people can get jobs in those fields, but really, I'd rather see kids get a degree in a career field, not a hobby.