Has Disney let Universal Catch Up In All Market Segments?

Is either one 'substantially less in size'. How about USF and IOA combined vs. MK. Not to belabor the point, but is the size of the UO parks what is holding their attendance down?

Probably not. My size comparison was in total not on a park by park basis. The attendance could have something to do with magnitude and perception. UO is predominantly considered to be a one-two day trip. WDW is a planned vacation usually encompassing a week or more. Disney guests buy longer tickets but may only go into the parks for a brief time each day which actually counts in raw data but not in real attendance.

Which begs the can they really catch up question? Not in my view and never in this capacity. But this may not be necessary as long as they successfully detract visitors; continue to generate appeal and turn a healthy profit. Everything will weigh in - especially visitors and money.
 
They do make the rockin' world go 'round...

1997? Let's get a little more up to date, 2001 attendance figures, here are the figures and the change from 2000:
I used 1997 because Mr. Eyesnur stated he thought 5 years was indicitive of a trend, and that a one year comparison was largely meaningless. If you have a disagreement, it is with him, not me.

Now, you are right that the drop from 2000 to 2001 was almost equal. Now, on to 2002.

Hmm... AK still outperformed by almost 1.5 million. Interesting....
It outperformed USF by 400k, and IoA by 1.2 million. But what is actually interesting is that for 2000 to 2001, you highlighted the percentage change, but for 2002, you ignored the percentage change and only posted the raw difference.

Why? (Its ok, we all know, but I'm just giving you the chance to say it...;) )

Mission:Space is a replacement for Horizons.
Just repeating this from HB2K because it seems this fact was lost on some folks for much of this conversation.

Thank you, Matt, for the most significant point in this entire discussion. How can anyone believe that Universal has caught up when even those who find most fault with Disney can't be lured to the Universal offerings?

Well, 2 points on this one:

1- While it may sound like I have an overblown sense of self-importance, I realize that I am only one person, and my family is only one family. Further, the fault I find is with Disney's DIRECTION, and not so much as where they are right now.


2- I know you were distracted by the fairy business, but its important to remember by original post, where I said Universal has NOT caught up to WDW in all areas. I wasn't willing to breakdown the age groups and make predictions though. I did say they have GAINED in families, but that the gap was huge to begin with, meaning they have not caught-up.

Clearly Universal has not caught-up in all market segments, or they would be drawing at least as many people as WDW on a per park basis. Again, my concern is over trends and direction. I realize the AB numbers do no provide absolute proof that WDW is experiencing negative growth due to their own decisions, however, they do at least hint that WDW may have a problem besides those caused by outside factors.

Since attendance is a "lag" indicator, waiting for WDW's attendance to actually fall below Universals will mean waiting until it maybe too late to do anything about it.

You are are shaky ground here. First off, you yourself point out that USF or IOA don't provide enough compelling attractions to even make them half day parks for many. To you, and to many more, they are no day parks.
Hopefully this is more clear now, but just in case... My family, as well as those we travel with, are pretty much in what one would consider the "family market". As I've said, Universal has most certainly not caught Disney in this area. Further, we are "Disney people", who have that long history with Disney's films and parks. If Disney ever loses us, and those like us in significant enough numbers, they are through.

But for those more in-line with Universal's target, locals, teens, etc, USF and IoA are very good parks. Whereas Disney's target for AK, families, find it to be less than stellar (talking big picture, not what you or I think). That's why I said for their audiences, Universal's parks are not 1/2 day, while for its audience, AK is largely considered a 1/2 day park (not saying that is a technically correct description, only what it has been labeled...though I do think on pure attraction counts, IoA has more...not completely sure though)

The number of people that go to Disney and not to Universal while in Orlando is probably huge. The number that go to Universal and not to Disney............how small do yo think that one is? That says an awful lot.
Yes, it says that Disney still has far more market share than Universal. But again, direction and trends is what we should be concerned with. Not saying that we have absolute proof that those are negative for Disney, but just that they should at least be raising some doubt.

I think you overstate when you say 'much' of Disney's audience when it comes to AK. What do you have to base that on? A relatively small group on an internet bulletin board?
We've been through this before, but AK's attendance started out lower than the other three parks and has fallen each year, with its decline surpassed only by Epcot. It closes no later than 7pm, and frequently 5pm, without squaking from guests. It no longer even opens earlier than 9am. Before the return of a parade, the place emptied out by mid-afternoon.

Again, the reasons are a separate discussion that we have already had, but I can't see how I am over-stating its failure to strike the chord with the Disney's guests that was intended.
 
Which begs the can they really catch up question?
How about this question. I know how Baron really loves these types of 'if pigs could fly' deals, but..............................

Strip everything away from WDW except for the MK. No resorts, no other venues, no other parks. Just the MK. Do the same for Universal. Strip it down to just IOA. Which park is going to get more one day visitors.

Strip UO down to USF only. Which gets more one day visitors?

Heck, even combine IOA and USF. Which gets more one day visitors, the MK or the combined USF/IOA?
 
Hey DK, no arguments from me on the MK thing.

From a Disney-centric point of view, I'm just concerned that Universal does seem to be poised to pass AK with at least one of its parks, and is showing signs of gaining on the other three as well.

As Eyesnur pointed out, Disney getting a smaller percentage of the pie isn't necessarily all bad as long as the pie increases enough to allow Disney to grow... but that's where the questions start.
 


Well, 3 points on this one:
I saw 1. I saw 2. Dis I miss a point ;).
I know you were distracted by the fairy business, but its important to remember by original post, where I said Universal has NOT caught up to WDW in all areas.
No distraction Matt, I know you have gone on record that UO hasn't caught up. My question was really for those who think they have.
My family, as well as those we travel with, are pretty much in what one would consider the "family market".
As I pointed out in my initial post, this is really the only market that Disney is in. I only broke it down further to try and get some discussion going. Didn't work completely though. The guy who made the 'caught up' statement has decided not to play. Hmmmmmm............wonder why? Could it be because he was WRONG!!!!! We all say things we know to be wrong in the heat of a discussion I suppose ;).
But for those more in-line with Universal's target, locals, teens, etc, USF and IoA are very good parks. Whereas Disney's target for AK, families, find it to be less than stellar (talking big picture, not what you or I think). That's why I said for their audiences, Universal's parks are not 1/2 day,
Sorry Matt, that ground ain't any firmer ;). Sure, for those who like what IOA has to offer it is not a half day park. Guess what, for those who like what AK has to offer it isn't either. I'm sure not every one of those 6+ mil that walked thru the IOA gates in 2002 thought the park was stellar. At AK they had 7+ mil walk through the gates and it would be a good bet that an equal or larger percentage of those people thought AK was as stellar as the IOA guests found their park. Why? I bet you that a good portion of those Disney guests who consider the AK a half day don't bother to go in the first place.
 
I saw 1. I saw 2. Did I miss a point
Doh! Wasn't fast enough with the edit trigger...

I'm sure not every one of those 6+ mil that walked thru the IOA gates in 2002 thought the park was stellar. At AK they had 7+ mil walk through the gates and it would be a good bet that an equal or larger percentage of those people thought AK was as stellar as the IOA guests found their park. Why? I bet you that a good portion of those Disney guests who consider the AK a half day don't bother to go in the first place.
Again, I know we don't have all the info, but isn't AK's drop every year, at a rate faster than MK and MGM, despite the addition of various attractions, possibly indicitive of some dis-satisfaction on the part of WDW's guests?

I know the attendance numbers we have are not perfect, but they are all we have, and they have been used to show the upside to Disney in the past. And they seem to show IoA is not suffering the same attendance degradation as AK, which leads me to believe there is a better than 50/50 chance they are doing a better job of appealing to their customers than AK is to Disney's customers.
 
Replacement and retooling are completely different things. Mission: SPACE is replacing where Horizons was, but the building was completely demolished and started from scratch on the ground up. Shrek is going into a pre-fab building that is just being customized to accompany the new special effects. Cost saving measure? Yes. But I feel then that Universal is limiting themselves on this particular attraction, by not being able to provide a new space for this show they are limiting themselves to a certain available space.
Disney planned on re-using the Horizon's building just as UO did with Shrek. The problem was the Horizon's building was in such disrepair they had to demolish it and start from scratch.

No distraction Matt, I know you have gone on record that UO hasn't caught up. My question was really for those who think they have.
Reading through this thread, I think I may have misstated my opinion (or it's changing).

I don't think UO has caught up to WDW in ALL market segments. I do think they have made gains, or taken away outright certain segments, but in the over all picture WDW is still the Orlando Leader.

I can honestly say I see UO strategically taking one segment after another. They've taken the teens. They've either taken or will take the Locals & APers. What's next? I'd guess the tweens (Shrek & Neutron seem to be aimed right at them). The families will probably be the hardest & longest battle fought. But with a stable that includes Harry Potter, LOR, and other future properties (just imagine Pixar's future stuff here*) the future looks bright at UO.
 


Sorry Matt, that ground ain't any firmer . Sure, for those who like what IOA has to offer it is not a half day park. Guess what, for those who like what AK has to offer it isn't either. I'm sure not every one of those 6+ mil that walked thru the IOA gates in 2002 thought the park was stellar.
Kidds,

IOA has not had the well documented troubles with guest expectations that DAK has with regards to how their guests view their park.

While I will agree that not everyone who went through the gates LOVED IOA, I doubt the complaints were than there wasn't enough to do.
 
Disney has a history os trying to save money and re-use buildings/reide mechanism. For instance look at Buzz Lightyear at MK. They could have built a excellant ride like USF did with MIB, but no they did it on the cheap by using the old ride mechanism and made a very mildly amusing ride with bright colors and cheap cutouts with nothing interactive like MIB is!!!
And while Space Mountain is a decent ride to compare it to the Hulk is a major joke!!!!!!
I would agree with HB2K that disney does have advantage at this time but while they are on the downhill spiral i find USF to be going uphill in the manner that disney used to do!!
 
Again, I know we don't have all the info, but isn't AK's drop every year, at a rate faster than MK and MGM, despite the addition of various attractions, possibly indicitive of some dis-satisfaction on the part of WDW's guests?
Maybe. I don't really know. I try and stay away from the attendance figure game as I'm not that confident making ststements either way based on such numbers.
 
>>>HMF seems to be correct in his description of the announced attractions between the two parks.<<<

Actually, he's only correct in his description of Jimmy Neutron. The ONLY component of Hitchcock that Shrek 4D is using is the old projection cabinet for the previous theater. EVERYTHING else in portion of the building that Shrek is using has been gutted and will be rebuilt from the ground up.

>>>All I can remember about it was that it seemed very small.<<<

It was. All of the recent major additions have been at the bottom of the valley that is accesible by a VERY LONG escalator (except for Terminator and Shrek).

>>>Actually MGM Studios was first announced in 1985, Universal Studios Orlando was announced in 1986.<<<

I don't know the exact years (I want to say 1984 and 1985), but USF was announced before MGM. USF had also been on the drawing boards for a VERY long time, with it having been first conceptualized before the Magic Kingdom in Florida opened.

BTW, a lot of people have called down on me for using the term "ignorance" as a response to the Pro-Disney camp's arguments against Universal. I'm not making any apologies, because it is quite clear that many of these arguments are STILL based on stereotypes and twisted facts ("Shrek 4D is a retoolment of Hitchcock" "Hardly any of Universal's on-site guests STAY on property" (actually, a 1/3 of Universal's guests DO stay on property and do not leave for ANY other attractions in Orlando. It has been well documented in the Orlando Sentinel if anyone pays an arm and a leg go through the archives)).

And for the LAST TIME, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are coming to Universal Orlando. In the case of LOTR, I think it is pretty safe to say that they will NEVER be a part of Disney as long as Michael Eisner is in charge thanks to the bad blood there.
 
actually, a 1/3 of Universal's guests DO stay on property and do not leave for ANY other attractions in Orlando
Assuming that there is no double counting of guests (ie, only one turnstile click per person per day counts) then there are approximately 13million UO guests per year. That's an average of 35,600 per day.

There are 2400 on-site rooms. Assuming an average party size of 3 guests (4 is the maximum in most rooms), the resorts can accomodate 7200 guests per day. Even at 100% occupancy, the Universal resorts can only hold 20% of the total UO guests. So, it seems 1/3 is a bit inflated.
 
I went to US once when I was about 23- I have never been back. I liked it ok but it was no Disney park. I have never been to IOA. I like thrill rides fine but no where near as much as rides like HM, Spaceship Earth or Pirates:) DH hates coasters like Hulk and Dueling Dragons so the only thing we would really go to IOA to see would be Spiderman and I don't think I want to pay $50 each to see one ride. We are both 32-no kids. Our friend (24) went to IOA and hated it. He said the rides/themeing/ques were ok but nowhere near the quality of TOT, Splash, HM, etc.. He told us don't bother going. We will probably go and judge for ourselves at some point.

Even at 32 the Disney parks, movies and characters still have a lot of good memories associated with them for us. I really don't get that warm fuzzy feeling from Shreck or Jimmy Neutron even though I liked those movies! I just don't see how you can compare Mickey and Jimmy-sorry.

We just got back from WDW on Tuesday night. Monday night there were little kids in front of us on Pirates (6-7) with their jaws hanging open while they pointed at sceens the whole time. Even the old Disney rides still have that "magic."

I can spend a day in ANY of the Disney parks, never go on a ride and feel like I have got my moneys worth. Just looking at the pictures of the outdoor steel roller coaster at IOA makes me grossed out. Too 6 Flags if you ask me. Lost Continent looks great. Toon Lagoon-cheap o rama -like Dino O Rama another stinker if you ask me:)

We also went to Disneyland for the 1st time in 2000 and I was surprised at how beautiful I found the park. Again it just had that MAGIC! I am open minded and love amusement parks. I love reading about Coney Island and P. Park and even Fredomland. I will give IOA and US a chance but I can never see them being on a par with WDW or DL.
 
>>>Even at 100% occupancy, the Universal resorts can only hold 20% of the total UO guests. So, it seems 1/3 is a bit inflated.<<<

Yeah, I should have clarified that*. What I mean't to say is that 1/3 of Universal's onsite guests stay on property and do not venture off until their visit is over.

>>>We all post things like this that are inaccurate now and then. It doesn't mean we are ignorant or misleading. It just proves we are human.<<<

That's true, but a lot of what I have been pointing out as "ignorance" are "facts" being put out by people who probably wouldn't give Universal a chance anyway (and many of these "facts" seem to have been pointed from a Marcie frame of mind to boot).

* And I shouldn't post when pressed for time either, but that is another point entirely. ;)
 
Originally posted by raidermatt

I used 1997 because Mr. Eyesnur stated he thought 5 years was indicitive of a trend, and that a one year comparison was largely meaningless. If you have a disagreement, it is with him, not me.

Now, you are right that the drop from 2000 to 2001 was almost equal. Now, on to 2002.

It outperformed USF by 400k, and IoA by 1.2 million. But what is actually interesting is that for 2000 to 2001, you highlighted the percentage change, but for 2002, you ignored the percentage change and only posted the raw difference.

Why? (Its ok, we all know, but I'm just giving you the chance to say it...;) )

I didn't post the percentage as I could find any sites that listed a percentage change. But now that I have found one for 2002 I think you will be pleasantly surprised raidermatt... I didn't skip over it because the numbers favored Universal over Disney, it is quite the opposite actually.

Percentage change for 2002 (just for raidermatt ;) )

Magic Kingdom -4%
Epcot -15%
MGM Studios -6%
Animal Kingdom -7%
Universal Studios Orlando -10%
Islands of Adventure -8%

So there you go raidermatt... I took the time to find them, and I think they still show the trend that Disney still holds better attendance Universal.
 
Originally posted by pheneix
[B
And for the LAST TIME, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are coming to Universal Orlando. In the case of LOTR, I think it is pretty safe to say that they will NEVER be a part of Disney as long as Michael Eisner is in charge thanks to the bad blood there. [/B]
Can you prove that?

And what about that "ignorance" comment? ;)
 
Hmmm, well, I'm wondering where you found those, and from what year 2002 is being compared to...

Here's what I have from Amusement Business, which is the only publication that I knew of that bothers to put out estimates

2001 to 2002

MK, 14.8 to 14.0, down 5.4%.
Epcot, 9.0 to 8.3, down 7.8%.
MGM, 8.4 to 8.0, down 4.8%.
AK, 7.8 to 7.3, down 6.4%.
WDW, 40.0 to 37.6, down 6.0%.

USF, 7.3 to 6.9, down 5.5%.
IoA, 5.5 to 6.1, up 10.9%.
Universal total, 12.8 to 13.0, up 1.6%.

Since the drop from 2000 to 2001 was only slightly in favor of WDW (-7.4% to -9.2%), a 2000 to 2002 comparison wouldn't change the difference much.

Where did you find the numbers you posted?
 
>>>Can you prove that?<<<

Go look under AV for an essay about the troubles between Eisner and Miramax over Lord of the Rings. After reading that it is fairly obvious why LOTR isn't a Disney property.
 
Didn't hill or somebody else do a rather extensive piece on it? I can't remember, but being a LotR fan I recall that I was kinda glad Ei$ner didn't get his hands on it!! I KNOW he would have have ruined it!!
 
Strip everything away from WDW except for the MK. No resorts, no other venues, no other parks. Just the MK. Do the same for Universal. Strip it down to just IOA. Which park is going to get more one day visitors.

No question who wins here and I see your point. But how long does the notoriety last? How long before that ride count equalizes and the new kid doesn't see much of an attraction distinction between the two industries?
 

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