Disney and the No-fly Zone

[Maistre Gracey]

Originally posted by DawnCt
...And I ljust "love" the way it was snuck through, in an appropriations bill of all things. I will say it again, it is loathsome!

I don't understand this. Are you suggesting the TFR was an act of Congress???

Roy, I am in Connecticut now, but we just flew from the west coast. Santa Ana was one of our stops. Is that where you fly out of?

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Just curious... Since most of the folks here are not pilots, are you aware that there is flight restrictions over many, many, areas? There are restrictions virtually over any congregation of people more than (I believe the number is) 3000 people. Football stadiums, gatherings, are all included, not just the Disney parks. This notam (notice to airmen) appears periodically, depending upon threat levels.

I just don't want you to think that it's Disney, and no place else...

 

[DawnCt]

Originally posted by Maistre Gracey
I don't understand this. Are you suggesting the TFR was an act of Congress???

Roy, I am in Connecticut now, but we just flew from the west coast. Santa Ana was one of our stops. Is that where you fly out of?

Yes, It was tacked on to an appropriations bill, with 65 words added to the 3000 page document. "Disney" was not mentioned but this whole issue by passed a discussion and debate, it bypassed Homeland Security and was snuck in under the door. The entire article is posted on the debate board from the Orlando Sentinal.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DawnCt
Yes, It was tacked on to an appropriations bill, with 65 words added to the 3000 page document. "Disney" was not mentioned but this whole issue by passed a discussion and debate, it bypassed Homeland Security and was snuck in under the door. The entire article is posted on the debate board from the Orlando Sentinal.

...
Are you sure that there were not Treasury Funds involved in implementing this no-fly-zone? I wonder if it was loathsome when your local house/senator "snuck" something though a bill that benefited your state or you personally? If it is truly an outrageous issue our government's many checks and balances will catch it at somepoint and reverse it. Until then you are just going to have to live with a No-fly-zone over Disney as hard as that may be.

 

[DawnCt]

Originally posted by EUROPA
...
Are you sure that there were not Treasury Funds involved in implementing this no-fly-zone? I wonder if it was loathsome when your local house/senator "snuck" something though a bill that benefited your state or you personally? If it is truly an outrageous issue our government's many checks and balances will catch it at somepoint and reverse it. Until then you are just going to have to live with a No-fly-zone over Disney as hard as that may be.

So it is okay with you if Congress sneaks in a piece of legislation that benefits one company specifically? Can you spell Enron? What about Global Crossing??

 

[roymccoy]

Maistre gracey - No, we fly out of Fullerton Muni but we have to go over to John Wayne all the time for avionics work, annuals, etc. The DL TFR sits right in between Fullerton and John Wayne (SNA). Hopefully, it will go away.

Yes, this particular TFR was enacted by congress. It is a first. No FAA, no public review and comment period, no Homeland Security, nothing. That's why this unprecedented and needs to be stopped. Disney greased someones pocket to get this included in the appropiations bill. That means that ANY company with the money could get a TFR placed over it.

Mayor Daley in Chicago was so upset that DL got a TFR and not downtown Chicago like he had requested, he closed Meigs Field! This is the airport that has is right next to Chicago and is the boot up city on your MS Flight Simulators. He said, " If MIckey has a no fly zone, then so does Chicago" and he literally went in in the middle of the night and had the public works department destroy the runways with backhoes. This is the slippery slope that I am talking about. If it's not checked, it will snowball.

Roy

* Here is a copy of the story from AOPA about Meigs Field, the Disney TFR's and what Congress is now doing about it.


Leader of important congressional panel raises questions about Disney TFRs

May 2 — An important member of Congress is calling into question the "Mickey Mouse
TFRs" (temporary flight restrictions over Disney World in Florida and Disneyland in
California). In a letter to Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta, Representative
Ernest Istook (R-Ok.), the new chairman of the House transportation subcommittee,
raised important questions about the legitimacy of the TFRs.

These TFRs were put in place after some vaguely worded language restricting
banner-towing operations over certain sporting events was included in the 2003 FAA
Appropriations Act. Some lawmakers made it clear to the Department of Transportation
and FAA that the "intent of Congress" was to provide for flight restrictions over the
Disney theme parks as well.

But now Chairman Istook is questioning whether that represented the intent of all
members of the conference committee that wrote the language.

"AOPA supports Chairman Istook's efforts to review the Disney TFRs," said Andy
Cebula, AOPA senior vice president for Government and Technical Affairs. "Much as
Mayor Daley did to justify destroying Meigs Field in Chicago, others are also using
'national security' as a ruse to place limits on general aviation for reasons that have
little to do with terrorist threats."

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DawnCt
So it is okay with you if Congress sneaks in a piece of legislation that benefits one company specifically? Can you spell Enron? What about Global Crossing??

In this case yes. Like I said the No-Fly-Zone is a good thing. There is no reason that low flying planes should be allowed over large crowds of people.

Do you fight this hard about every "porkbarrel" issue out there or just the ones that you read about in the newspaper? I think not. So its ok for you when you're local senator/house member gets something good for you or you state but not Disney? Gives a quick run down of the other porkbarrel issues that you've been so upset over that you've jumped in on 3 threads to complain about it.

 

[roymccoy]

UH....Europa....no low flying planes should be allowed over big groups of people? Wouldn't that shut down any airport in any big town? Did you know that hundreds of "low flying planes" fly over Los Angeles everyday...when they're landing at LAX or other airports?! Have you ever driven on the 405 freeway by LAX or John Wayne airports and seen the jets landing just a few feet away? There's enough fuel on board those jets to really ruin your day if one should happen to come down early. You know why you and others shouldn't (and normally don't) worry about it? Because that almost never happens. Planes are an INCREDIBLY safe means of transportation for both you on the ground or to the people on the planes. An airplane or helicopter has NEVER came down in DL. Doesn't that almost 50 year track record mean anything?? Are we supposed to stop planes from flying over because we get the "cumulative case of the willies?" Shouldn't this be an argument we should have after there has been a problem??!

This is the reason that Disney never had any luck restricting it's airspace before...there was never a risk to pilots or people on the ground to warrant it. Disney has used the threat of terrorism to slip this in.

Roy

 

[roymccoy]

I would make the argument that if Disneyland and WDW is THAT unsafe and susceptible to terrorist attack, that maybe Congress should consider shutting them down. I mean, with the chance of a dirty bomb going off or an outbreak of a biological agent being dispersed and spread by the guests at DL to the rest of the city and country, I think that maybe this possible attack site should be closed so nothing can happen. I live within a few miles of DL and a dirty bomb going off in DL could really affect me and my family. A biological agent being released within DL could easily spread to my community. If Disney is that dangerous, maybe Congress should close it down....for all of our good.

Roy

* Tongue firmly in cheek *

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by roymccoy
You know why you and others shouldn't (and normally don't) worry about it? Because that almost never happens. Planes are an INCREDIBLY safe means of transportation for both you on the ground or to the people on the planes. An airplane or helicopter has NEVER came down in DL. Doesn't that almost 50 year track record mean anything??

ERR...UHHH...ROY...

Great thinking. Do you know other things that almost never happen? I'll list a few.

We almost never have planes crashing into skyscrapers and killing 3000 people at a time.

Only on occasion do people sneak up on our Navy ships and blow big holes in the side of them

I can only remember a couple of times in the last few years that someone drove a car bomb into one of our embassies.

I can only recall a few fires in history that burned down big towns like Chicago.

Now using your logic we should do nothing to protect ourselves form any of those things happening. Yeah-great idea!


No its not a good idea to have helicopter piolts, banner plans and sightsears flying low over 50,000 people. There is no other way to say it, reguardles of how "safe" you "think" that is.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by roymccoy
I would make the argument that if Disneyland and WDW is THAT unsafe and susceptible to terrorist attack, that maybe Congress should consider shutting them down. I mean, with the chance of a dirty bomb going off or an outbreak of a biological agent being dispersed and spread by the guests at DL to the rest of the city and country, I think that maybe this possible attack site should be closed so nothing can happen. I live within a few miles of DL and a dirty bomb going off in DL could really affect me and my family. A biological agent being released within DL could easily spread to my community. If Disney is that dangerous, maybe Congress should close it down....for all of our good.

And while we are it, why don't we just close down and gate off your entire community? I mean, if someone is going to set off a dirty bomb in that area I certainly don't want anyone from your community to be able to bring the materials contained in it anywhere else in the country. So perhaps we should just get Congress to start setting up a big fence around your entire area and allow you guys to sustain all by yourselves.

roymccoy for President! He'll show those terrorists that we mean business! You can't scare us! We will just shut everything down! Our theme parks, our national landmarks, our malls and grocery stores, nobody can go outside, and no more vacations for anyone! Nobody can go anywhere! We will all live holed up in our homes! Yay!!!!

Come on now.....

 

[roymccoy]

Closing Disney to stop the terrorists makes just as much sense as closing the airspace around Disney. If it's that much of a target that CONGRESS had to act to make it safe (HA) by closing it's airspace than maybe we should weigh the needs of the many (the surrounding community that would be affected by a major terrorist attack at DL) against the needs of the few (the comparatively small numbers of Disney guests at the parks) and close Disneyland until this blows over. It's obviously just not worth the risk. I mean, if the AIRSPACE has to be closed...

Roy

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by roymccoy
Closing Disney to stop the terrorists makes just as much sense as closing the airspace around Disney. If it's that much of a target that CONGRESS had to act to make it safe (HA) by closing it's airspace than maybe we should weigh the needs of the many (the surrounding community that would be affected by a major terrorist attack at DL) against the needs of the few (the comparatively small numbers of Disney guests at the parks) and close Disneyland until this blows over. It's obviously just not worth the risk. I mean, if the AIRSPACE has to be closed...

And I still say that if you are concerned we should just close off your entire area. Also, at last check I don't remember any dirty bombs going off. I also don't remember any attacks that (with the exception of New York due to the amount of debris and the like) that an isolated terrorist attack affected the community around it.

 

[roymccoy]

I also don't remember a small plane going down in Disneyland. How come your hypotheticals are okay but mine are not?

Roy

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by roymccoy
I also don't remember a small plane going down in Disneyland. How come your hypotheticals are okay but mine are not?

Never said that they weren't.

 

[roymccoy]

Something else, too. Recently and on numerous occasions while at DL and DCA since the enacting of the no fly zone around DL, I have noticed the Disney leased helicopter (green and grey with a small tail rotor) happily flying over the parks, as it always has, giving the Burbank brass a birdseye view of how construction is going at the parks and other things. I guess DISNEY gets a special waiver or something. Must not be TOO worried about a terrorist stealing or hijacking THEIR helicopter! Disney knows best!

Roy

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

It's like deja-vu all over again........ thanks Yogi....