Disney and the No-fly Zone

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by roymccoy
I also go back to the Pentagon on 9/11. They had 15 to 20 minutes of information that a jet was coming towards them and the White House. If the Pentagon, the most secure building in the world, can't shoot down a plane with 15 to 20 minutes notice, then how can a plane be shot down within a matter of seconds in DL. (Taking into account that 99.99999% of incursions are innocent pilots a little off course?)

Could you please point me to your source of this information. It seems that we have conflicting views on what actually happened.

Very interesting questions caveat lector.

 

[EUROPA]

I'm all for making it bigger. Great idea.

Problem with 9/11 and the Pentagon we did not have anyone there to pull the trigger or the authorization to do it. We do now.

You are correct though if someone is hell bent on crashing a plane into DisneyLand, then decsion would have to come really quickly to shoot it down.

There are many other cases that it seems the goverment for one reason or another are more worried about thuogh...like chemical and bio weapons which would take more air time over the target to make work.

 

[roymccoy]

caveat lector - I will try my best to answer your questions.

1. Fullerton Airport (our Airport) is right outside the DL TFR.
As a matter of fact, Fullerton can no longer do "left traffic" approaches because of the TFR's close proximity to the airport. The typical airplane can climb out 500-700 feet per minute. There just is simply not enough room to get over the TFR in time. The best way to go is around it. Also, if you are arriving or departing Fullerton or John Wayne, you wouldn't want to be at 3000 feet that close to the airport on approach. You would want to be a lot lower. (You are landing shortly)

2. IFR is flying instrument or Instument Flight Rules. There is a big difference between flying IFR and VFR (visual flight rules) A lot of pilots aren't instrument rated and can not fly IFR. Without getting too technical, my wife is instrument rated but we don't like to file IFR on certain trips in and out of the basin because of the altitudes that you are required to reach on that IFR route. Fully loaded, our plane cannot always make it to the "minimums" (required altitude to be at on a certain airway or TEC route. ) These minimum altitudes are in place to make sure that an airplane can clear all of the surrounding terrain. Remember, IFR is usually for conditions when the pilot can not see the ground or what's ahead of him/her. One solution would be for the FAA to allow VFR traffic through the TFR if they are on what's called VFR flight following but, that is not the case. You must be on an IFR flight plan. Here's a real example:

We want to get out of the basin and go to San Diego. If we go VFR, no problem. We just watch the ground and the airspace and we go. If we have to file IFR to San Diego, we may have to use a route that goes through the Cahon Pass and out that way, because of the IFR minimums.

3. What friction? It adds friction to law-abiding pilots, I can attest to that, but what can it possibly do for the person who is hell bent on crashing into DL? The only punishment for breaking the TFR is a letter from the FAA about 30 days after the incursion. (and that's if anyone even noticed...no one watches the TFR exclusively.)

4. Noise abatement is a whole different issue. Noise abatement procedures are put in place by the airport and the community to try to live in harmony. Usually noise abatement procedures are implemented because an airport is making more noise than it once did. (John Wayne started bringing in the big jets and corporate planes.) In this case, I think that it is very useful for the airport to sit down with the community and work out some sort of noise abatement. Now in Fullerton Airports case, the airport has been there since 1920 with not too much more traffic today than it had in the 50's. Who encroached on whom? (Disneyland was built in 1955 and Walt had to know that the airport was there.) We call it "Fly Friendly" and it has really worked in a lot of areas.

I would point out again, that a lot of the traffic flying around DL (most of the helicopters) are Disney leased or used aircraft or Anaheim police. About the only time you'll see a general aviation aircraft around Disney is during a transition or a couple of quick sight-seeing turns around.

Hope this answered your questions.

Roy

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by roymccoy
I would point out again, that a lot of the traffic flying around DL (most of the helicopters) are Disney leased or used aircraft or Anaheim police. About the only time you'll see a general aviation aircraft around Disney is during a transition or a couple of quick sight-seeing turns around.

Well now I'm confused. If most of the traffic that flies around DisneyLand is Disney uses and leased, then it seems that pilots like yourself have always been on the same type of flight patterns regardless of the TFR or not. Or do you mean in the immediate area above DisneyLand not the surrounding area?

As a matter of fact, Fullerton can no longer do "left traffic" approaches because of the TFR's close proximity to the airport.

So now everyone has "adapted" to coming in from the right then correct?

 

[roymccoy]

maistre gracey - Here is the timeline from ABC News:


7:59
AA 11 takes off from Boston's Logan
International Airport

8:14
UAL 175 takes off from Logan

8:20
AA 11 ceases its transponder signal


AA 77 takes off from Washington's Dulles
International Airport

8:28
AA 11 veers off course
8:38
Boston ATC informs NORAD that AA 11 has
been hijacked

8:42
UAL 93 takes off from Newark International
Airport

8:43
FAA notifies NORAD that UAL 175 has been
hijacked

8:44
Otis ANG (Mass) scrambles fighters to
intercept AA 11


8:46
AA 11 strikes north tower of World Trade
Center


AA 77 veers off course

8:47
NORAD is informed that WTC tower has been
struck

8:50
UAL 175 veers off course
8:52
Otis ANG F-15 fighters take off to intercept
UAL 175

8:55
As he arrives at a Sarasota elementary
school, Bush is informed by senior advisor Karl
Rove that a "small twin engine" plane has
struck the WTC

9:00
Bush is advised, via telephone, by National
Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice


AA 77 ceases its transponder signal

9:02
UAL 175 strikes south tower of WTC

9:05
Bush is advised by Chief of Staff Andrew Card
of the second plane striking the second WTC
tower, while Bush is reading to children in a
classroom

9:06
Washington notifies all ATC of the suspected
hijacking of AA 11

9:16
FAA notifies NORAD UAL 93 may have been
hijacked

9:20
UAL 93 is hijacked, Tom Burnett reports the
takeover to his wife on a cell phone

9:24
Three F-16s from Langley AFB are scrambled
to protect Washington

9:25
FAA notifies NORAD that AA 77 may have
been hijacked


FAA orders all commercial planes be grounded

9:27
NORAD orders jets scrambled from Langley
AFB to intercept AA 77

9:28
Keyed microphone in cockpit of UAL 93
reveals someone saying "Get out of here!"

9:30
Bush excuses himself from classroom to make
a statement that a "terrorist attack on
America has occurred."

9:32
Cheney and other White House officials are
ushered to underground bunker

9:33
AA 77 crosses Capital Beltway

9:35
Three F-16s are airborne from Langley to
intercept AA 77


AA 77 begins to execute difficult, high-speed
descending turn


UAL 93 files a new flight plan and reverses
course, heading towards Washington D.C.

9:38
AA 77 strikes Pentagon

As you can see, Flight AA77 veers off course at 8:46 am. It strikes the Pentagon at 9:38 am.
It's actually MORE time than I remembered. The powers that be had 52 minutes to do something about that plane. NORAD knew that Flight AA77 had been hijacked at 9:25. This is STILL 13 minutes to impact with the Pentagon. I just don't see how a few seconds notice at DL could make any difference.

Roy

P.S. It was hard to read this timeline again. It brought back a lot of feelings that I guess I had tucked away. God Bless the USA

 

[roymccoy]

HMF - Please stop using this "adapted" reference. Yes, we now fly all of our patterns to the right at Fullerton and this puts 6 airplanes on one side of the runway instead of 3 on each. It's an accident waiting to happen...but just along as the guests feel warm and fuzzy....

Roy

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by roymccoy

As you can see, Flight AA77 veers off course at 8:46 am. It strikes the Pentagon at 9:38 am.
It's actually MORE time than I remembered. The powers that be had 52 minutes to do something about that plane. NORAD knew that Flight AA77 had been hijacked at 9:25. This is STILL 13 minutes to impact with the Pentagon. I just don't see how a few seconds notice at DL could make any difference.

The timeline is great and helpful. But nowhere in there does it state that anyone was aware that the Pentagon was going to be targeted or that the White House was the original target. Just because a plane is hijacked doesn't mean that someone is going to use it to run into a building. Therefore without knowing the full intent of the hijacked planes I don't think a final decision was made to enforce any type of military action. Now if the government had gotten word that the Pentagon or White House were "next" and they did nothing, then that would be a different story. But unfortunately, nobody had any ideas of the intended targets. So your logic is wrong that the government had "x" amount of time and did nothing. They did nothing because they weren't aware of the full intent on the hijacked planes final destinations.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by roymccoy
HMF - Please stop using this "adapted" reference. Yes, we now fly all of our patterns to the right at Fullerton and this puts 6 airplanes on one side of the runway instead of 3 on each. It's an accident waiting to happen...but just along as the guests feel warm and fuzzy....

Roy

Why? You keep using "warm and fuzzy" and "law abiding pilots". You can continue to use the same phrases to get your point across and I can't? I'm using the word "adapt" because with these new regulations in place it is something that must be done. People all across the country have had to adapt their lives and/or schedules based on what the government has chosen to enforce or not enforce. Why should the pilots in this area been any different?

 

[caveat lector]

Bottom line: I just noticed that HMFan is going to Disney in 9 days, and I'm all sorts of jealous

 

[EUROPA]

Anybody else getting the feeling there is more to this then the sense there is some huge new "danger caused by the no fly zone"??

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Roy, I just pulled up TFR ID 3/2123 (the DL TFR).
It specifically states that aeromedical flights that are in contact with ATC are exempt from the flight restriction. I think the Angel Flights may qualify. It might be worth checking with your local FSDO.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Originally posted by EUROPA
After 9/11 many areas of the country have been under protection of each States National Guard and Regular Military. This includes public,private and government owned facilities. If Disney is (and I think it is) one of those locations then the average citizen would not even know what or where the protection is coming from. The military has several small scale systems to intercept an incoming plane from shoulder fired(Stinger), Hummer based(Avenger), to the well known Patriot Missile system. These are just the systems that we know about....

Remeber folks the "Stealth Fighter" flew over the Us for 10 years before the public even knew the plane existed.

But these "stinger missile intercepts" just don't happen.
I fly for a living, and I constantly hear warnings to small aircraft that they have wondered into restricted airspace, and to leave it at once. Since 9/11, aircraft are suppose to listen to the emergency frequency whenever possible. This is how I hear these warnings, but many small planes either only have one radio, or they just don't have the frequency tuned.
This happens literally every day, but when is the last time you heard of a aircraft being shot down in the U.S.?

 

[EUROPA]

So if we use your logic becuase it hasn't happend (thank god) it would/could not be possible in the future? I think that kind of "thinking" got us into this big ole mess anyway.

 

[roymccoy]

Very good, maistre. I'll check with the LB FSDO and see if Angel Flight counts as a medical flight.
I hadn't thought of that. I know that sometimes Angel Flight pilots get the call sign "Mercy" but we have never done it. I'll have the wife check into it.

Roy

Who do you fly for? My wife was trained at United (training kingdom in Denver) but now she's looking for a Regional Jet job with someone.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Originally posted by roymccoy
Who do you fly for? My wife was trained at United (training kingdom in Denver) but now she's looking for a Regional Jet job with someone.

I fly a business jet. We have a fleet of jets, and we sell 'fractions' of them to businesses and wealthy individuals. I will be just north of you tommorow, as we are headed for Santa Barbara.

 

[roymccoy]

Very cool. That fractional jet idea is really catching on. Why pay for the whole thing all the time. My wife and I are actually considering a new Beechcraft Baron on a fractional program. They're doing it with General Aviation planes now! I would never be able to afford a new Baron on my own, but it doesn't cost much more per month than our single does now.

Anyway, I hope the reason that the TFR is there in the first place (terrorism) goes away sometime here in the future and we can get things back to normal.

Roy

 

[Mr D]

Well AQ is still alive, look at what they did last night in Saudi Arabia, with all the warnings they still managed to get through.

If they wanted to they could still hijack or appropiate an aircraft, even a large multi engine.

 

[DawnCt]

Originally posted by EUROPA
Anybody else getting the feeling there is more to this then the sense there is some huge new "danger caused by the no fly zone"??

Absolutely! this is Disney's way of restricting commerce at the expense of pilot safety and additional fuel costs by promoting a bogus arguement that all the Disney guests will somehow be safer because the secret missiles on the Snow White Castle can be fired by Goofy within 39 seconds. Of course, what will the fall out be when Goofy shoots down a little Cessna taking the kids to the San Diego Zoo? And I ljust "love" the way it was snuck through, in an appropriations bill of all things. I will say it again, it is loathsome!

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DawnCt
And I ljust "love" the way it was snuck through, in an appropriations bill of all things. I will say it again, it is loathsome!

Happens all the time its not the first or last thing to be "snuck" through if there is such a thing. Are you sure that there were not Treasury Funds involved in implementing this no-fly-zone? I wonder if it was loathsome when your local house/senator "snuck" something though a bill that benefited your state or you personally? If it is truly an outrageous issue our government's many checks and balances will catch it at somepoint and reverse it. Until then you are just going to have to live with a No-fly-zone over Disney as hard as that may be.

 

[roymccoy]

I couldn't agree more, Dawn! Disney has been trying to get their airspace restricted for years but they've always had to argue that planes flying overhead were a "nuisance" and that argument has always fell on deaf ears. It takes an act of God to get the FAA to grant you airspace restriction over your commercial event, the argument being that a "nuisance" isn't worth the risk to the pilots by having to skirt around the airspace.
Well, now Disney is using 911 as an excuse and it worked! Even though the TFR around Disney could do absolutely nothing as far as protecting anyone from a terrorist attack, they have successfully got what they wanted by coming in the back door.

Good news, though. I have heard from friends of mine in the ATC community (Air Traffic Control) that the DL TFR will be probably be removed by February 2004. Many Congresspersons who were on the committee that passed the appropiations bill that included the slipped in TFR around Disney property were unaware and livid that it was in there. They are catching a lot of heat from the press (who have labeled the TFR's "MIckey Mouse" TFR's) and from many different pilot organizations. Hopefully, this slippery slope of allowing private businesses to control the nation's airspace will end here and now. If this were to continue, anyone with money could have a no fly zone around their business. This may not seem like a big deal to a non-pilot now, but it would be a big deal to just about everyone if this became common place. Flight delays, smaller airports that you couldn't fly into anymore, more of a risk of mid air collisions because pilots are having to skirt around TFR's, higher ticket prices, etc. Hopefully, this will all end soon and we can get back to safe flying in the LA basin!

Roy