A replacement for monorails and buses?

[DDLand]

Actually they are constantly selling points in sold out resorts, they don't just do it every few years. Once 2042 hits I think development of new DVC will end or significantly slow down. By the time the monorail resorts contracts expire the monorail could be a long ago memory of the buyers grandparents.

Actually Disney usually only markets their latest several resorts. While it's true you can talk them into selling points they've accumulated on a case by case basis, Disney isn't up front with you about it and wants you to buy the resorts they're actively marketing. What I'm talking about specifically is when Disney will relaunch and market Resorts such Hilton Head Island, (HHI fans and DVC members will remember the new color scheme and repair work that was implemented across the resort to prepare them for another round of sales) in order to get some of their accumulated points out. They don't just have to worry about DVC sales every 50 years, but in between that cycle too. Crippling both existing resorts and future resorts by losing monorail is stupid for both DVC and Disney. Sales of both their regular hotel units and vacation points would be negatively effected.

The only time the monorail is truly 'popular' is morning and evening. In between they're half empty. I can't count how many times I've left midday and had a car to myself.

While money is being spent on automation, I'd wager that it's not being done for guest benefit or long term presence, but rather to minimize Disney's liability costs.

This guys saying monorails were getting too popular so they could get rid of them. I don't disagree with you. Monorails are people eaters designed to quickly and efficiently move guests. This isn't an active problem, but of it were to become one in the future it could be handled appropriately. That was my main point.

Though you can't ignore the fact that even if this is a settlement with the Transportation Safety Board that it will benefit operations. That's a fact. Things are going to move more smoothly and efficiently.

No one is going to sell their DVC points if the monorail goes away. If you're investing five figures up front plus another chunk annually you're not going to walk away if an attraction is removed - you're there for the long term and have already accepted that change will always be in the air.

You took a leap there. Of course current members won't start selling their points. That's a given. If you re-read what I wrote you'll find nothing to suggest that. What I did suggest is even once Polynesion Bungalows and Villas sales finish, Disney will still at times actively market existing monorail properties and resell points. It's not like "ha, fooled you! You're stuck for 50 years!" When every so often Disney has to come back and keep the property nice and market it, they stay on their toes. They keep the amenities that sold it to the original owners so they can sell it to new guests too. Eliminating sales tactics would be stupid. Especially when on re-sale you can get totally fun Resorts like Wilderness lodge or Kidani Village for considerably less.

@Firebird060 I think that's valid. I was just kicking that around as a suggestion. Keep in mind that Disney has added a considerable amount of new guests staying on the beam recently. It's not inconceivable that they'd add more in the near future. If the beam guests started complaining (paying $600+ per night) they may take action to limit the Resort line. MyMagic makes it really easy to do.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

While money is being spent on automation, I'd wager that it's not being done for guest benefit or long term presence, but rather to minimize Disney's liability costs.

Agree here...I think pixie pounders misinterpret this greatly...and let it gloss over the fact that they are not addressing the real issues in the future for the monorail: namely cost escalation, train replacement, and beam degradation on about 15 miles of track

 

[wallrock]

This guys saying monorails were getting too popular so they could get rid of them. I don't disagree with you. Monorails are people eaters designed to quickly and efficiently move guests. This isn't an active problem, but of it were to become one in the future it could be handled appropriately. That was my main point.

Though you can't ignore the fact that even if this is a settlement with the Transportation Safety Board that it will benefit operations. That's a fact. Things are going to move more smoothly and efficiently.

I agree that improvements can be had, but instead of improvements what is needed is an overhaul. The system is pushing 25 years since the last upgrade and there's only so much maintenance you can pour into a complex mechanism before you either decide to replace or do away with. They can stretch this out by reducing the amount of time the trains run but it only prolongs the inevitable. I'm sure the suits have already made up their mind which way they're going to go, and I don't see new trains on the horizon.

You took a leap there. Of course current members won't start selling their points. That's a given. If you re-read what I wrote you'll find nothing to suggest that. What I did suggest is even once Polynesion Bungalows and Villas sales finish, Disney will still at times actively market existing monorail properties and resell points. It's not like "ha, fooled you! You're stuck for 50 years!" When every so often Disney has to come back and keep the property nice and market it, they stay on their toes. They keep the amenities that sold it to the original owners so they can sell it to new guests too. Eliminating sales tactics would be stupid. Especially when on re-sale you can get totally fun Resorts like Wilderness lodge or Kidani Village for considerably less.

I'm not a DVC member so there isn't much I can offer up in the form of an opinion, but I've read some of the posts around here regarding DVC costs and the removal of 'perks' so the trend is there (trend of removal that is), but I'm not hearing a lot of folks walking away. Granted it's just a sampling of the overall membership, but the costs seem to have gone vertical over the years and yet people still buy. I've got a feeling that anyone desiring to stay in those Bora Bora wannabes are thinking more of the view they have of Cinderella's home (and envious eyes staring at them from the ferries) instead of the train that can take them there. Many theories floating around on what will be converted next on the resort loop. I suspect more cannibalization of the Grand Floridian and the Contemporary and the rumored tower at the Polynesian makes sense. I don't think a 25 year old train that smells of mildew half the time is going to be a selling point on what I'm certain will be expensive slices of timeshare real estate.

On the subject of the Wilderness Lodge, I wonder what its DVC 'status' (i.e. cost) will be after those cabins are constructed. It's more of a glorified moderate at the moment.

 

[DDLand]

I agree that improvements can be had, but instead of improvements what is needed is an overhaul. The system is pushing 25 years since the last upgrade and there's only so much maintenance you can pour into a complex mechanism before you either decide to replace or do away with. They can stretch this out by reducing the amount of time the trains run but it only prolongs the inevitable. I'm sure the suits have already made up their mind which way they're going to go, and I don't see new trains on the horizon.

Trains with enough love can last a great deal of time. While it's age is certainly a factor, the trains should be able to survive another decade easily and probably more. They just need enough money spent on maintaining them.

I'm not a DVC member so there isn't much I can offer up in the form of an opinion, but I've read some of the posts around here regarding DVC costs and the removal of 'perks' so the trend is there (trend of removal that is), but I'm not hearing a lot of folks walking away. Granted it's just a sampling of the overall membership, but the costs seem to have gone vertical over the years and yet people still buy. I've got a feeling that anyone desiring to stay in those Bora Bora wannabes are thinking more of the view they have of Cinderella's home (and envious eyes staring at them from the ferries) instead of the train that can take them there.

I'd say entry level price has gone vertical, but that's not really indicative perks being done away with. I think they're marketing it more to a higher wealth income bracket who are eating it up. As perks go, others come. DVC is constantly making special offers and deals, adding value.

People staying at Bora bora is not the vast majority of DVC members at Poly. Most stay at the DVC villas. Those people have a special affinity with the resort, part of which is the monorail. Just look at the room rates. Are Poly, Contemporary, and GF so much better than Animal Kingdom Lodge or Beach Club? Nah. But vacation points and room rates both are markedly higher. Part of that is nostalgia, part of it is the theme, but a nice chunk belongs to the monorails pull. People absolutely stay at those in part because of the monorail.

Many theories floating around on what will be converted next on the resort loop. I suspect more cannibalization of the Grand Floridian and the Contemporary and the rumored tower at the Polynesian makes sense. I don't think a 25 year old train that smells of mildew half the time is going to be a selling point on what I'm certain will be expensive slices of timeshare real estate.

On the subject of the Wilderness Lodge, I wonder what its DVC 'status' (i.e. cost) will be after those cabins are constructed. It's more of a glorified moderate at the moment.

People love the monorail. It does make an impact. People will pay more in part because of the monorail.

Tower at Poly does make sense. Contemporary and GF don't seem to have a hard time filling themselves. I suppose they could sell off points in the other non A Frame hotel building, but the person who buys into that would be a dope.

I wouldn't be so hard on WL, it's actually a pretty fantastic resort. It's got more character than some of the others, but it's fun because of it. Amenities are getting an upgrade and that resort should be in great shape.

 

[Q-man]

I'm kind of surprised that in the present money above all else culture at Disney they haven't figured out how to cut down on the 40+ minutes of combined to and from time at MK's parking. Don't they know that time could be spent on spending?

 

[Josh Hendy]

I'm kind of surprised that in the present money above all else culture at Disney they haven't figured out how to cut down on the 40+ minutes of combined to and from time at MK's parking. Don't they know that time could be spent on spending?

They're really over the barrel with the lake plunked down right between the parking lot and the park. Somebody was apparently really in love with the notion that getting to the theme park from your car should be an "adventure" and a "journey". As if driving to WDW and MK wasn't an adventure in the first place!

The best solution that I can think of is to have the trams continue from the parking lot all the way around the Lagoon to the front of MK. It's not ideal. The trams are not very fun or romantic, but it's the simplest and most efficient solution that I can think of. The additional cost of building a new crossing of the channel near the Contemporary should be paid for from the elimination of the ferries. If not from the next major parking fee increase.

The only other solution is to move the parking lot to the wooded area north of the Grand Floridian and west of MK. Right at the current intersection of Floridian Way and Maple Rd. That would cut the amount of "tram time" in half but obviously requires a major change to the road system in the area of Magnolia golf course and Grand Floridian resort.

 

[rteetz]

They're really over the barrel with the lake plunked down right between the parking lot and the park. Somebody was apparently really in love with the notion that getting to the theme park from your car should be an "adventure" and a "journey". As if driving to WDW and MK wasn't an adventure in the first place!

That was Walts idea. He wanted the theme park to be kind of hidden from the thousands of cars on pavement outside the gates like he saw at Disneyland.

 

[middlechild]

My first trip to Walt Disney World included a veteran as a tour guide. He carefully pointed out how the different sites were all hidden from each other. From Wilderness Lodge you could not see Contemporary buildings, from Polynesian the view across the lake framed the MK. Entering the land of imagination really stoked my imagination. Buildings have been encroaching into this view of distinct lands.... to the detriment of the experience.

 

[rteetz]

My first trip to Walt Disney World included a veteran as a tour guide. He carefully pointed out how the different sites were all hidden from each other. From Wilderness Lodge you could not see Contemporary buildings, from Polynesian the view across the lake framed the MK. Entering the land of imagination really stoked my imagination. Buildings have been encroaching into this view of distinct lands.... to the detriment of the experience.

Also how you can only see contemporary from tomorrowland because that hotel has that tomorrowland look they wanted.

 

[Hudson Hornet]

Scrap the monorail that takes the resort loop to MK and replace it with a WEDway Peoplemover! I personally would love to see Peoplemover installed all over the property as a continuously moving mode of transportation, but I doubt that would ever happen. Only Walt would have pushed for Monorail and Peoplemover to fulfill his vision for the original Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow.

 

[Q-man]

Also how you can only see contemporary from tomorrowland because that hotel has that tomorrowland look they wanted.

You can see from Splash too just most people or looking down the drop.

 

[Josh Hendy]

That was Walts idea. He wanted the theme park to be kind of hidden from the thousands of cars on pavement outside the gates like he saw at Disneyland.

Totally understand that, but it's possible to hide parking lots with things like trees, hedges and berms. Without moving something almost a mile away ... doubling the cost and tripling the time for people to travel from 'A' to 'B'.

That's water under the bridge though ... no pun intended.

I still think the most practical solution is to take guests on the propane trams all the way from the parking lot to the MK entrance. Eliminate the ferries. The lagoon can still be circled by the monorail because of its sentimental importance plus the sizzle it gives to monorail resorts.

If the monorail costs are too high, I would demolish the TTC/MK and Epcot loops, and keep only the resort loop. That way, the resorts still get their sizzle and non-resort guests can still jump on the monorail and ride it around for a treat sometimes. It may be important for the history and image of WDW but not so important that they need to operate 3 different loops forever.

 

[seashoreCM]

Running the propane trams from the Magic Kingdom parking lots to MK itself would require building a new 2 lane road for them. There would be the need for a new crossing over or under the waterway from 7 Seas Lagoon to Wilderness Lodge (or at the waterway used by the water pageant) as well. The trams cannot run mixed with ordinary traffic.

And don't forget a station and a turnaround loop for the trams at MK. You would have to put that beyond the existing MK monorail station. Also new tram cars that can carry wheelchairs.

I think that the big ferries are the most reliable transportation from MK to parking lot.

If you take the pod system (personal rapid transit) that the OP referred to and adapted it to closing hour Disney crowds then you would have christened yourself a ordinary monorail or light rail system. One interesting question regarding hundreds of small two to ten passenger vehicles, how do you provide air conditioning?

 

[Josh Hendy]

Running the propane trams from the Magic Kingdom parking lots to MK itself would require building a new 2 lane road for them. There would be the need for a new crossing over or under the waterway from 7 Seas Lagoon to Wilderness Lodge (or at the waterway used by the water pageant) as well. The trams cannot run mixed with ordinary traffic.

And don't forget a station and a turnaround loop for the trams at MK. You would have to put that beyond the existing MK monorail station. Also new tram cars that can carry wheelchairs.

I think that the big ferries are the most reliable transportation from MK to parking lot.

Yes you would need to build the road for them, and a turnaround near the MK entrance. The whole purpose of this would be to eliminate the ferries, so the money for the roads would come from the savings.

Ferries are an efficient and reliable way to carry large numbers of people, but not in the MK situation. They're costly and most of all they're a huge waste of time to load and unload for such a short and unnecessary trip. Ferries only make sense where it's difficult or impossible to drive around a body of water, which is why they're big things in NYC and San Fran, but non existent in places like Pittsburgh and Minneapolis.

 

[7series]

Scrap the monorail that takes the resort loop to MK and replace it with a WEDway Peoplemover! I personally would love to see Peoplemover installed all over the property as a continuously moving mode of transportation, but I doubt that would ever happen. Only Walt would have pushed for Monorail and Peoplemover to fulfill his vision for the original Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow.

That definitely wouldn't ever happen because it wouldn't work. I love it as a ride to cool off on during the day, but it isn't a mode of transportation. Can you imagine people trying to get on there with strollers or wheelchairs/scooters? What about in the rain? No, no no. A cute idea but not a good one.

 

[7series]

Ferries are an efficient and reliable way to carry large numbers of people, but not in the MK situation. They're costly and most of all they're a huge waste of time to load and unload for such a short and unnecessary trip. Ferries only make sense where it's difficult or impossible to drive around a body of water, which is why they're big things in NYC and San Fran, but non existent in places like Pittsburgh and Minneapolis.

You are missing the point. It isn't just a cold, clinical transportation decision. The Ferries are there because some people simply love a boat ride. That's why they are used as often as they are.

 

[7series]

I would like to see the monorail expanded to include DHS. It 's a great way to get around. Much better than riding a bus through traffic. It would be a huge expense tough.

 

[MomtoDisneytrips]

There is no way spending $30,000 to carry 4 people back and forth makes sense. This is a dumb idea

 

[DLM1980]

I've always loved the THOUGHT of a people mover to take ya where you need to go. But the build out for this would be MASSIVE. Maintenance bays, at least 4 lanes two in each direction for bypassing a breakdown, switches to go to the resorts, holding lanes for cars at the resorts while waiting for passengers. The resorts would probably need some reconfiguring to get these lanes in (just picturing my favorite CBR, the people mover is going to need a few bridges to get to the bus stops without interfering with vehicular traffic)

Speaking of cars they are going to need to be air conditioned, or the whole system is going to need a roof to keep out of the sun/heat. Cars, oh my god the number of cars is going to be crazy. You would probably need a TTC full of cars just to have enough on hand for the demand of each family without their being a huge wait. Nobody is going to want to wait 20 mins for their personal car to show up. It's going to need to be 5 mins or less.


Now if we REALLY want to get crazy, lets scrap the idea above and go with Omnimovers connected from resort to a main hub that then you transfer to another omnimover to take to you the park of your choice. Who wouldn't love to Doom Buggy it all the way to the Magic Kingdom. *one note though, the damn doom buggy is going to have to accommodate a person AT LEAST 6'5" in height. I'm really tired of looking at 999 happy haunts while leaning forward cause I hit my head on the the top of the buggy

 

[wallrock]

It still puzzles me why people think that Disney is going to come up with or employ some avant garde transportation system. The monorail concept has been around since the 1800s and Disney was far from being the first to employ such a device, so the system wasn't exactly 'futuristic' as many claimed it was. Conventional methods like boats and buses, while boring to some, work fine today to get guests from place to place.

There's really nothing special about getting you from Coronado Springs to Hollywood Studios nor is there a reason to make it special. Fundamentally guests could care less what mode of transportation they take in the morning as they are more concerned about getting to that character breakfast on time or making sure they hit that first FastPass window they reserved three months earlier. In the evening, heads are nodding off or they're glued to their smartphone screens looking at who knows what (probably the next day's schedule) to even pay attention to the vehicle that's getting them back to the place to crash for the night. That care-free, spontaneous spirit that visitors of yesteryear had at the House of the Mouse has been replaced with endless planning and adjusting every day they're on vacation. Now people board the transportation system staring at their watches with their daily schedule on their minds and aren't interested in the 'wow' factor of that system taking them from the parking lot to a place to escape the day to day.

The monorail today is an attraction novelty and will continue to be treated as such until management shuts it down. I doubt Disney sees a reason to spend the money and stick another novelty into the system that is required to be a part of the baseline infrastructure, especially when they've taken away the reason to be impressed by that novelty.