5th Ship

[dmunsil]

I agree with most of what your said. As for Alaska, I have never been there, but from what other people that have been there have told me is that the ships that are there now are the largest that can handle the area. The Wonder is about as big of a ship that can handle the rivers. A larger ship may not fit, plus the Panama Canal issue until it is complete.

The Celebrity Solstice goes to Alaska, on basically the same itinerary as the Wonder, and it's a huge ship (122K GT), pretty similar in size to the Dream/Fantasy (129K GT). It goes into Tracy Arm just fine, and that's about the tightest fit in the itinerary. The Grand Princess, Crown Princess, Golden Princess and Ruby Princess also go to Alaska are are quite big (110K - 115K GT). Compare to the Wonder at 83K GT.

 

[truck1]

Sorry OKW Lover, I took a look around but I cannot find any detailed rules and regs on things like tonnage, size, etc. I know they are somewhere, likely buried in the Federal Code. I do know the USCG does monitor the vessels by radar and with small USCG vessels watching. The vessels have the rules on the bridges and the fines can be pretty big if they get to close.


HEY Truck 1........your pretty good at going though the Federal codes!

AKK

Ok, you got me.

I was looking and nothing jumps out as an Alaskan Rule/Law SS etc that limits the size of a ship.

With that said, I think there are 2 forces at play, that have direct bearing on what ships go to Alaska. Just a thought, but how big are some of the tankers up there?

First and foremost, is the water quality rules that Alaska has in effect. It basically dictates what kinds of sanitation systems are on the ships up there, how much and of what they can dump, where, etc. Its pretty specific from that Ive seen. If a particular ship doesn't have a proven system that Alaska requires, then there not allowed up there. Realistically, though, the bigger the ship, the more money everyone makes, from the locals, to the ports.

The 2nd, is a self imposed size limit. Even with thrusters, and improved electronic navigation, the bigger ships still need a lot of room to maneuver, and in some spots, may not have the room to move around. These ships are not designed for full time service in the colder waters, and even a small chunk of ice, can ruin a capts day, by taking off a blade from a prop, or worse.


Ill keep looking to see if anything jumps out, but I don't think theres any thing specific relating to size.

 

[truck1]

On my recent Dream cruise I took a "Making of the Dream" talk. The crew member who did the session said that a fifth ship wouldn't be made until the fourth ship was paid for. Quite prudent.

Ehhh, not so much. DCL will build when the best opportunity arises. They look at a few specific things before building. Things like exchange rates, time frames, booking etc. If I had to guess, the Dream class is pretty close to if not already paid off. Even though the ships cost 1.2 billion each, it wasn't a one lump sum. They were paid for over the course of a few years. Usually when certain milestones were met by the yard. The only crew members I would trust as far as when a new ship is in the works, are the Capts, and the engineers. There the ones that would have direct input into the new ships, like whats working and whats not on the existing ships.

 

[michellekcm]

Talking to crew members on the Magic recently, the 2 (totally unsubstantiated and maybe totally made up by the case members themselves, who knows) rumours I heard were:

1. The next ship will have a smaller capacity than the Magic, likely 2100

2. If they were to base a ship in Asia they believe they would need to totally redesign the rooms to meet the Asian market, as they wouldn't like the way it is currently set up. Specifically what that is I have no idea.

I also had a discussion with a crew member who had previously worked for another cruise line in Australia and they were saying that there are still issues around how they would pay crew etc in Asia and Australia where tipping doesn't happen the same way as in the US (eg I don't tip hotel staff in Australia, and only tip at restaurants for exceptional service at upper class restaurants etc.). On their previous cruise line salaries were quite different.

Personally, I would love a ship based out of Australia...I'd have to figure out how to afford to take time off work to be on as many cruises as possible without paying airfare to the U.S.!

 

[truck1]

Looking a little bit further last night, I did see where there are some speed restrictions, and mandatory radio calls, as well as tug requirements. I also saw where there were distance requirements for certain areas, regarding baby seals, and a few other things but didn't see anything in the SS regarding size restrictions.

 

[truck1]

I think this topic has brought out some really great conversations and I have really enjoyed reading some of the theories and rumors. There appear to be some very knowledgeable people around these parts.


I remember a lot of discounted rates from Galveston for sailings, so it would venture to say that they were not exactly filling the boat. I agree with the fog, and there have been recent oil spills delaying ships as well. The last I think was due to a grounded tanker barge.

I also recall that there were some photos with Disney Executives in New Orleans. Link 1. Link 2. I do not know if that would be a viable port either since it appears to mirror Galveston. New Orleans is stuck trying to suck up the surrounding southeast population areas which may not have the disposable income to fill a Disney ship. Past ships in New Orleans have generally been older style ships on short cruises to Mexico. It would be a day closer than Galveston, so the itinerary would be more likely to include a day at Port Canaveral or Castaway Cay. Itinerary could rotate Sea-Key West-Castaway-PC-Nassau-Sea-Sea and then hit up Sea-Jamacia-Grand Cayman-Sea-Costa Maya-Cozumel-Sea.

But even the port of Mobile in Alabama lost their last cruise ship with Carnival a few years back, and no one has show interest to return. Could be lack of supporting population. Could be lack of interesting itineraries. To only sail to Cozumel and Costa Maya is tough to find appeal for people who cruise frequently and want to experience new things. .

I remember hearing that as well, but Im curious as to the thought process. Last time I heard, it takes about 8 hours for a ship to make it from the Gulf to the port. Then figure 2 days to get from the port to the closest first stop.

I do not know the rules and regs or the maximum size and tonnage, but the USCG does have limits on the maximum size, speed and maneuvering for vessels to transit the various channels and approach the ice/ glaciers.

AKK

I cant find anything that says a size limit. What I am thinking, is that there are physical features of the ships that are preventing some of them from going up there. From doing some research, the piers up there weren't designed for cruise ships. They are converted piers. Like Skagway as an example. The piers up there can only handle certain size ships, and even the design of the ship (Overhanging lifeboats, bridge wings etc) would interfere with objects left on the pier. Also, Juneau,is building 2 new piers that can handle ship over 1000'.

The only other thing I can think of is air draft restrictions, that may limit ships moving around freely.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I remember hearing that as well, but Im curious as to the thought process. Last time I heard, it takes about 8 hours for a ship to make it from the Gulf to the port. Then figure 2 days to get from the port to the closest first stop.




I cant find anything that says a size limit. What I am thinking, is that there are physical features of the ships that are preventing some of them from going up there. From doing some research, the piers up there weren't designed for cruise ships. They are converted piers. Like Skagway as an example. The piers up there can only handle certain size ships, and even the design of the ship (Overhanging lifeboats, bridge wings etc) would interfere with objects left on the pier. Also, Juneau,is building 2 new piers that can handle ship over 1000'.

The only other thing I can think of is air draft restrictions, that may limit ships moving around freely.

Good Day,

I do know that for cruise ships there is a size/tonnage limits in various areas/passages/channels. There is also requirements covering vessel ability maneuvering, how close they can get to glaciers, ice shore lines and of course speed. Thinking about it these are likely set up by the USCG, Pilots and the Cruise line Masters Written down in local rules and regs.

Truck you mentioned Tankers,. There are of course various areas Tankers just don't go near. Vessel size/ tonnage and speed and maneuverability would also be a factor. Basically Tankers get Pilots early and follow strict rules in established channels. Sometimes even USCG escorts.

I would also point out BIG BROTHER is watching by Radar and cams along the way.

AKK

 

[mcd2745]

The cruise industry also got a little more crowded yesterday with Virgin (Richard Branson) announcing they are getting into the game with 3 new ships (built at Fincantieri) - the first to set sail from Miami in 2020.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Lots of new prel. orders........now the question is how many will actually be built and how many older ships will of sold off and how many of those scrapped?

AKK

 

[rrehman]

On the DIS podcast a few weeks back they were talking about Disney's 5th ship possibly being a riverboat with the Adventures by Disney announcement. One of the podcasters mentioned that Ama Waterways was building a ship specifically for the Adventures by Disney. It was also mentioned if it works out that Disney may buy them out. That could lead to a total of 28 ships (Disney's 4 + 2 rumor =6) (Ama Waterways 20 + 2 on order 22).

 

[pjacobi]

How would a cabin be designed for the Asian market? Would that include a squat toilet?

Aren't we all just Disney fan singing the same song?

-Paul

 

[truck1]

Lots of new prel. orders........now the question is how many will actually be built and how many older ships will of sold off and how many of those scrapped?

AKK

The big lines, RCCL,CCL etc I don't doubt they be built. They'll build a ship, and move 1 down the line, etc and one will be scrapped. Which I think is where the total number of ships will remain constant but the total number of rooms go up slightly. Some of theses other orders, like Branson I'm not so sure of until the ship is built. If anyone can pull off a new cruise line it would be Sir Richard.

 

[rrehman]

The big lines, RCCL,CCL etc I don't doubt they be built. They'll build a ship, and move 1 down the line, etc and one will be scrapped. Which I think is where the total number of ships will remain constant but the total number of rooms go up slightly. Some of theses other orders, like Branson I'm not so sure of until the ship is built. If anyone can pull off a new cruise line it would be Sir Richard.

I'm excited to see what Virgin will offer. I am hoping for a Disney like experience at a Carnival price. I love cruising with Disney, but its hard to pay their prices. From a business standpoint, great for them. If people pay their prices, they keep them high. Once the Oasis class moves to PC, I hope it puts a big dent into Disney's bookings and forces them to lower their prices to be more affordable.

 

[truck1]

Good Day,

I do know that for cruise ships there is a size/tonnage limits in various areas/passages/channels. There is also requirements covering vessel ability maneuvering, how close they can get to glaciers, ice shore lines and of course speed. Thinking about it these are likely set up by the USCG, Pilots and the Cruise line Masters Written down in local rules and regs.

Truck you mentioned Tankers,. There are of course various areas Tankers just don't go near. Vessel size/ tonnage and speed and maneuverability would also be a factor. Basically Tankers get Pilots early and follow strict rules in established channels. Sometimes even USCG escorts.

I would also point out BIG BROTHER is watching by Radar and cams along the way.

AKK

So far nothing jumped out as far as sizing. Is it possible that the rule expired or was removed? I can find references to ships distance because of federal scientists who watch over the animals. The scientists are saying 85% of ships violate the distance rules. The scientists will see the ship maybe 100 yards offshore when they should be 500 and the crew will say they never.saw seals.

When I mentioned tankers I was referring to the size. Realistically they aren't going to some of the same places but just their size alone. Obviously they wouldn't be caught anywhere near ice flows, even with tugs.

I have seen where in certain areas and these are under Alaskan DEC rules I think, I'll have to go back and look, that masters need to call ahead and arrange for tugs under certain circumstances. There's also speed rules from point to point.
I'm still looking, and it could just be under a differnt name then what I'm looking for.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

So far nothing jumped out as far as sizing. Is it possible that the rule expired or was removed? I can find references to ships distance because of federal scientists who watch over the animals. The scientists are saying 85% of ships violate the distance rules. The scientists will see the ship maybe 100 yards offshore when they should be 500 and the crew will say they never.saw seals.

When I mentioned tankers I was referring to the size. Realistically they aren't going to some of the same places but just their size alone. Obviously they wouldn't be caught anywhere near ice flows, even with tugs.

I have seen where in certain areas and these are under Alaskan DEC rules I think, I'll have to go back and look, that masters need to call ahead and arrange for tugs under certain circumstances. There's also speed rules from point to point.
I'm still looking, and it could just be under a differnt name then what I'm looking for.

Arranging for tugs to be ready at certain points in a channel and follow along is nothing new.

AKK

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

The big lines, RCCL,CCL etc I don't doubt they be built. They'll build a ship, and move 1 down the line, etc and one will be scrapped. Which I think is where the total number of ships will remain constant but the total number of rooms go up slightly. Some of theses other orders, like Branson I'm not so sure of until the ship is built. If anyone can pull off a new cruise line it would be Sir Richard.

I agree on Rccl new builds. However Carnival Line is still having issues and they are trying to raise prices, but are having problems. NCL I think is also sitting under the mortgages of big new ships............not sure how they will be able to take on more debt.

I also think in general the bigger lines will be selling off more of the older vessels. I also believe new rules and regs. will make compliance very expensive to the older ships, especially those that we not build with up to date mechanics/systems. Look at the hundreds of millions Carnival has been spending to bring vessel up to date after their issues.

I agree on Branson. However it one thing to spend pocket change on a few hundred million to set up airline with a few planes. Its a all together other thing to need 2 or 3 BILLION to start a cruise line with 2 new ships.

AKK

 

[truck1]

I don't know if anyone else caught this, but our friend Tom McAlpin is the CEO of Virgin Cruises.

 

[rrehman]

I don't know if anyone else caught this, but our friend Tom McAlpin is the CEO of Virgin Cruises.

That was announced a few months back when Virgin said they were getting into the cruise industry. That is why I am hoping for a Disney experience at a much lower price.

 

[truck1]

Art, I found this. Could this be what you were referring to? This is just a snippet of a requirement I found.

It is recommended that no more than three vessels of greater than 50,000 gross tons be in
Tracy Arm at any one time, and no more than two vessels greater than 50,000 gross tons
be east of Mile 12 at any one time.
f. When more than one vessel is in Tracy Arm, only one vessel should transit inbound beyond

Mile 17 unless prior agreement is made with an outbound vessel. Only one vessel greater
than 50,000 gross tons should be North or East of Sawyer Island at any one time. The
MSTF recommends transits on the Southwest side of Sawyer Island may be appropriate if
it is determined conditions dictate.

 

[truck1]

That was announced a few months back when Virgin said they were getting into the cruise industry. That is why I am hoping for a Disney experience at a much lower price.

Ok. TBH I try not to watch the repeats of the bad news channels so I probably missed it. This was the first I heard of Virgin getting into the cruise business, and was surprised to see Toms name there.