a change I wish I could make

[Gabe1]

Let's talk data. Does your "zip" data take into account how teachers went above and beyond to help the student when they missed a week? Does your lack of data account the the amount of time and resources allocated to the students who have to be retaught skills, not only that they missed while gone, but the skills they don't understand because they don't have the prerequisites to understand.

The fact is that good teachers will work to get the student up to par. You can't measure that given those variables, so I'm not surprised there is no data.

Look, this is not rocket science. A kid misses a week of school. Yes, he is most likely going to miss important concepts. Some can overcome that with parents who might have the ability to catch them up. Some have good teachers that spend time after hours to help them. No, it's not the end of the world. However, it's not an ideal situation either. It's something you have to really consider carefully for your child.

In my experience, a child who misses a week of school is worse off than one who didn't. Lack of data is no excuse for not considering the decision carefully.

On a side note to anyone in a school board member position: Despite what Neil Boortz says, most of the teachers I know really do care about the students. Instead of calling us out as excuse makers, try listening to our experience and working as a team. It sounds as if you have already closed your mind to the teachers and administrators because you don't respect them as professionals. That's probably the worst attitude possible for working as a team. I come from a family of private business owners, and that attitude doesn't work well in the public or private sector.

We worked that data from when kids were absent a week or more. There was not data to support the claim that children suffered from being out of school to mess with standardized testing. Yes, they have to make up the work but just so the student does the work they missed they do not fail to do well on standardized tests. IF a parent is too brain dead to be able to comprehend text books written at grade level for elementary school reading, writing, spelling or math, then yes, maybe they should not take their kids out of school. My experience with K-8 text books is that most parents can, if they so choose comprehend the text. If what is taught outside the text that is designed for NCLB concepts it will not be tested for in standardized testing. That is why in High School with so many national students educated by state by state curriculum, high school students can take a uniformed ACT and SAT college placement test.

It is concepts learned over a year whether it is taught by parents or teachers. There is too much over thinking of how much is lost by a week or two during the school year over concepts grasped over an entire year. My parents took my sister and I along with our text books out of school from March 1st to April 15th every year during my childhood to go down to our vacation home in South Florida. We came back to school to finish the school year ahead of our peers. Elementary concepts are not difficult to teach to the general population of students. It isn't that complicated.

 

[PaceFamily]

I am fairly certain that an excused absence is one for which the school is given prior notice, or for which contact has been made by a parent or guardian (calling in sick).
As long as your child is not falling behind, these are not an issue.

Unexcused absences are cases in which a student does not show up, with no reason or parental contact. These are an issue, counted per year.

Truancy is an instance where a child is found skipping school, generally by a Truancy Officer.

Taking your child on vacation is not a crime. It is ridiculous to suggest as much.

But most importantly, the school does not supercede the parent. Parents make personally decisions for their families - decisions that MAY be explained to the school as a courtesy.
YOU are in charge of how you raise your child, not your local school.

It's no wonder that homeschooling is on such an upswing, with the way schools behave as if they know what is better for your child than you do.

Grumpy here..

1. Would love to see where one school lists vacation as an excused absence. I have looked around and this is the closest that I can find in the US "For an excused absence for educational reasons, the intent of the experience should have been educational from the outset and comparable to that which the student would have experienced in school. Family trips and vacations that were not designed, initially, to be educational will not be excused. Signing this form documents that this absence is for valid educational purposes.

2. Full Definition of TRUANT : one who shirks duty; especially : one who stays out of school without permission (see above).

Every school system that I have found (US, Canada, UK) has punishments for failure to attend school and I have not found one that lists vacation or "family holiday" as an excused absence. Granted, 8% of absences in the UK school system were claimed "family holiday". In fact, The Guardian has an article from 19 February 2012 "The education secretary, Michael Gove, is to crack down on parents who take children out of school to go on holiday." http://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/feb/19/gove-crack-down-term-holidays

Mandatory attendance in school IMHO is questionable at best. My child is a straight A student. There are attendance laws on the books for every school system that I have found in the countries mentioned above.

Granted you will do what you see best as will I and no matter how much discussion or arguing continues on this board, or the many others, will change that.

 

[Becky925]

Just a random thought and not meant to cause discourse but why is a vacation unexcused, and going to state competition for anything (music, sports, ect) excused. My cousin got into a very prestigious honors band that the travel to, the performances them selves , and the trip back, took up a week of school. Music is VERY important and I think far too ignored but for the purpose of this discussion, how did that really help her academically? I mean sure it could help her get a college scholarship in the future but that's not what we're talking about. The school sent her, and an instructor out of state for a week. It wasn't a tutor to help her with her make up work, it was a band teacher.

The work still had to be made up, she still missed out on ALL of her classes, packets still had to be sent along. The only difference here was the school sent her, her parents didn't ask to take her out. At least that's the only difference I can see, that and I'm sure the school enjoyed being represented at such an event. Perhaps I'm wrong and I'm thinking about these two things in the wrong way....

 

[barbja99]

As another poster stated, in most districts in Texas, they're really strict about absences and tardies.

"This District may file a complaint against the parent(s)/guardian(s) and /or student in a justice or municipal court if a student in required to attend school and fails to do so without an excuse on 3 or more days or parts of days within a four-week period. AISD must file a complaint against the parent(s)/guardian(s) and /or student in a justice or municipal court if a student is required to attend school and fails to do so without an excuse on 10 or more days or parts of days within a six–month period."

They can also require you to attend "why my kid needs to get to school on time" class. My ex had to do that.

I wonder if they'd be quite so strict if their state funding weren't based on the student being in the chair by 9am. Not in the seat: no money for the day for that kid. I think they get about $45/day.

 

[PaceFamily]

Just a random thought and not meant to cause discourse but why is a vacation unexcused, and going to state competition for anything (music, sports, ect) excused.

Ooohhhhh, pulling back that sticky curtain of Hypocrisy.

 

[TCrawford095]

We worked that data from when kids were absent a week or more. There was not data to support the claim that children suffered from being out of school to mess with standardized testing. Yes, they have to make up the work but just so the student does the work they missed they do not fail to do well on standardized tests.

You must have missed my whole point on the validaty of this data. There are too many variables to make a blanket statement that children don't suffer from being out of school. I see it first hand and go from experience.

IF a parent is too brain dead to be able to comprehend text books written at grade level for elementary school reading, writing, spelling or math, then yes, maybe they should not take their kids out of school. My experience with K-8 text books is that most parents can, if they so choose comprehend the text. If what is taught outside the text that is designed for NCLB concepts it will not be tested for in standardized testing. That is why in High School with so many national students educated by state by state curriculum, high school students can take a uniformed ACT and SAT college placement test.

We do not even have textbooks in my district. Our curriculum is far from basic in middle school. I would not call a parent braindead for not understanding some of these concepts. For example, here is a problem on one of our unit tests:

You can work at most 20 hours next week. You need to earn at least $92 to cover you weekly expenses. Your dog- walking job pays $7.50 per hour and your job as a car wash attendant pays $6 per hour. Write and graph a system of linear inequalities to model the situation.

I'm sorry, most of my parents don't know how to help their kids with these types of problems.

It is concepts learned over a year whether it is taught by parents or teachers. There is too much over thinking of how much is lost by a week or two during the school year over concepts grasped over an entire year. My parents took my sister and I along with our text books out of school from March 1st to April 15th every year during my childhood to go down to our vacation home in South Florida. We came back to school to finish the school year ahead of our peers. Elementary concepts are not difficult to teach to the general population of students. It isn't that complicated.

You are the exception, not the rule. That is not true for most students. It's more complicated than you think.

 

[slzer0]

Grumpy here..

1. Would love to see where one school lists vacation as an excused absence. I have looked around and this is the closest that I can find in the US "For an excused absence for educational reasons, the intent of the experience should have been educational from the outset and comparable to that which theAn student would have experienced in school. Family trips and vacations that were not designed, initially, to be educational will not be excused. Signing this form documents that this absence is for valid educational purposes.

2. Full Definition of TRUANT : one who shirks duty; especially : one who stays out of school without permission (see above).

Every school system that I have found (US, Canada, UK) has punishments for failure to attend school and I have not found one that lists vacation or "family holiday" as an excused absence. Granted, 8% of absences in the UK school system were claimed "family holiday". In fact, The Guardian has an article from 19 February 2012 "The education secretary, Michael Gove, is to crack down on parents who take children out of school to go on holiday." http://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/feb/19/gove-crack-down-term-holidays

Mandatory attendance in school IMHO is questionable at best. My child is a straight A student. There are attendance laws on the books for every school system that I have found in the countries mentioned above.

Granted you will do what you see best as will I and no matter how much discussion or arguing continues on this board, or the many others, will change that.

In 12y of my child's education, calling the school to notify my child's absence is sufficient to excuse. I am not required to explain why. As a tax paying citizen, I do not answer to the school, they answer to me.
No one here is incapable of looking the word truant up in a dictionary. Your definition does back up my argument - students making up work are not shirking duty, and they DO have permission to be out of school. The parent grants that permission.
By granting my child permission to be out of school, we are not breaking laws.

Your misconceptions about attendance as a criminal offence is indicative of your family's priorities about education vs family time. I am glad you feel so strongly about your convictions and are confident that you have made the right decision for your family. It's your family, and you made that decision, so indeed it is best for you.
But to continually suggest that others with differing priorities are comitting a crime is quite unfair.
Please stop using fear to coerce others to your side of the discussion.

In thr true spirit of DIS, pn a vacation planning board, do you really want to put a damper on someone vacation, causing them to wonder if they are breaking the law by committing a crime?
I think that's a little heavy-handed.

Leave the power of decision-making where it belongs, with the parents. Please stop trying to scare people into giving control of their children over to the school.

 

[slzer0]

As another poster stated, in most districts in Texas, they're really strict about absences and tardies.

"This District may file a complaint against the parent(s)/guardian(s) and /or student in a justice or municipal court if a student in required to attend school and fails to do so without an excuse on 3 or more days or parts of days within a four-week period. AISD must file a complaint against the parent(s)/guardian(s) and /or student in a justice or municipal court if a student is required to attend school and fails to do so without an excuse on 10 or more days or parts of days within a six–month period."

They can also require you to attend "why my kid needs to get to school on time" class. My ex had to do that.

I wonder if they'd be quite so strict if their state funding weren't based on the student being in the chair by 9am. Not in the seat: no money for the day for that kid. I think they get about $45/day.

"Without an excuse" is the key term.
This is meant to hold parents accountable for students skipping, or parents who don't make theur kids come to school.

Notifying the school excuses the absence.

 

[TheLanes]

In 12y of my child's education, calling the school to notify my child's absence is sufficient to excuse. I am not required to explain why. As a tax paying citizen, I do not answer to the school, they answer to me.
No one here is incapable of looking the word truant up in a dictionary. Your definition does back up my argument - students making up work are not shirking duty, and they DO have permission to be out of school. The parent grants that permission.
By granting my child permission to be out of school, we are not breaking laws.

Your misconceptions about attendance as a criminal offence is indicative of your family's priorities about education vs family time. I am glad you feel so strongly about your convictions and are confident that you have made the right decision for your family. It's your family, and you made that decision, so indeed it is best for you.
But to continually suggest that others with differing priorities are comitting a crime is quite unfair.
Please stop using fear to coerce others to your side of the discussion.

In thr true spirit of DIS, pn a vacation planning board, do you really want to put a damper on someone vacation, causing them to wonder if they are breaking the law by committing a crime?
I think that's a little heavy-handed.

Leave the power of decision-making where it belongs, with the parents. Please stop trying to scare people into giving control of their children over to the school.

Well said!

 

[slzer0]

We do not even have textbooks in my district. Our curriculum is far from basic in middle school. I would not call a parent braindead for not understanding some of these concepts. For example, here is a problem on one of our unit tests:

You can work at most 20 hours next week. You need to earn at least $92 to cover you weekly expenses. Your dog- walking job pays $7.50 per hour and your job as a car wash attendant pays $6 per hour. Write and graph a system of linear inequalities to model the situation.

I'm sorry, most of my parents don't know how to help their kids with these types of problems.

You are the exception, not the rule. That is not true for most students. It's more complicated than you think.

NOT a personal attack on you, but this no textbook issue has been a pet peeve of mine as a parent for a long time!

Non linear education makes it very difficult for students to follow along. Whether on vacation, or struggling in general, or simply trying to review concepts as concepts progress and build cumulatively.

If a teacher chooses to teach without a textbook - an issue I find causes MANY problems for students! - then they should be responsible for providing work for a student who will be out....
Unlesd "no textbook" is an excuse to just make up curriculum as you go along? Of course not. Lesson plans are submitted ahead of time.
College educators provide a syllabus. It is not unreasonable to expect this of teachers.

In light of prepared lesson plans, teachers who act put upon by parents DARING to request the lessons early are quite frustrating.

Copy and paste your lesson plan into an email and stop punishing, guilting, and intimidating your parents. Remember they pay your salary. You know, the one you receive during your 14 WEEK annual paid vacation.

**And as an aside - anyone planning a DCL vacation would have no problem answering your question above. Simple budgeting lol.
Maybe not on a graph, but then there is always more than one way to solve a problem.

 

[jjje]

I had to laugh when I went to my kids' school conferences today. (How timely!) My daughter's second grade teacher and four of my son's seventh grade teachers said "They learn so much more out having experiences in the real world than they would here doing worksheets!" My kids missed all last week of school for a cruise and their teachers were very supportive. I briefly considered asking them to write that down so I could have it notarized and laminated to show people the next time someone questions my decision to take my kids out of school for vacation. (I'm kidding! Sort of.) Just another reason I love the school my kids go to and the teachers they have.

By the way, I've been pulling my kids out for vacations since my son was in kindergarten and they've never had an unexcused absence. My choosing to take them out is all the excuse the school needs.

 

[slzer0]

Ooohhhhh, pulling back that sticky curtain of Hypocrisy.

Agreed!

 

[deanimal]

Most teachers aren't opposed to kids missing school for trips, but it's important for parents to teach that there are responsibilities that go with any reward. I've heard parents saying "She shouldn't have to take the test because she wasn't there for the lesson" or "My child was gone for that assignment so she shouldn't have to do it". That is the kind of parent that brings about these strict attendance policies that effect everyone. It's just another case of the rotten few ruining it for everyone.

And also, a lot of parents have a slightly inflated view of their child's overall academic abilities. (Not you of course, your child is brilliant, I'm talking about other people) There may be only a few assignments or tests in the first few months of the year to form the basis of the grades in the first report cards. So a kid could get A's on their first report card, but just a few missed marks could drop them to a C for the next one and they will never be able to make it up to bring their overall mark for the year back up.

Just a few thing to think about.

 

[slzer0]

Most teachers aren't opposed to kids missing school for trips, but it's important for parents to teach that there are responsibilities that go with any reward. I've heard parents saying "She shouldn't have to take the test because she wasn't there for the lesson" or "My child was gone for that assignment so she shouldn't have to do it". That is the kind of parent that brings about these strict attendance policies that effect everyone. It's just another case of the rotten few ruining it for everyone.

And also, a lot of parents have a slightly inflated view of their child's overall academic abilities. (Not you of course, your child is brilliant, I'm talking about other people) There may be only a few assignments or tests in the first few months of the year to form the basis of the grades in the first report cards. So a kid could get A's on their first report card, but just a few missed marks could drop them to a C for the next one and they will never be able to make it up to bring their overall mark for the year back up.

Just a few thing to think about.

Wow that's awful.

Lol @ not you of course!

 

[Becky925]

Ooohhhhh, pulling back that sticky curtain of Hypocrisy.

Exactly! What's good for the goose....

 

[natmom]

NOT a personal attack on you, but this no textbook issue has been a pet peeve of mine as a parent for a long time!

Non linear education makes it very difficult for students to follow along. Whether on vacation, or struggling in general, or simply trying to review concepts as concepts progress and build cumulatively.

If a teacher chooses to teach without a textbook - an issue I find causes MANY problems for students! - then they should be responsible for providing work for a student who will be out....
Unlesd "no textbook" is an excuse to just make up curriculum as you go along? Of course not. Lesson plans are submitted ahead of time.
College educators provide a syllabus. It is not unreasonable to expect this of teachers.

In light of prepared lesson plans, teachers who act put upon by parents DARING to request the lessons early are quite frustrating.

Copy and paste your lesson plan into an email and stop punishing, guilting, and intimidating your parents. Remember they pay your salary. You know, the one you receive during your 14 WEEK annual paid vacation.

**And as an aside - anyone planning a DCL vacation would have no problem answering your question above. Simple budgeting lol.
Maybe not on a graph, but then there is always more than one way to solve a problem.

Agreed completely!! Some poster had the nerve to imply that parents aren't smart enough to teach their children different math problems etc. Math is taught very differently from when DH and I were in school. When our children bring their homework to us with questions often their response to our help is 'no, we don't do math that way and we can only use the way we do at school'. meanwhile, since I didn't go to teachers college recently, I have no way to teach them because we aren't provided with any materials to teach us the new way of doing things.

This brings me to another somewhat related topic. When DH misses work ( for vacation, business trip, illness ) he has twice as much to do when he returns. He has to get the work done somehow because it is his job. Shouldn't it be the same for a teacher assembling work for students? It is their job correct? It is unreasonable for teachers to think that students will never be absent. It is their job (within reason) to keep students up to date with the work when they have been absent. I'm not meaning a student who has been gone for an extended period of time I'm just meaning a few days. I just know I'm going to get slammed for this, but I get tired of the moaning from teachers. DH leaves at 6:15 for work, gets home at 6 and usually logs in for an hour or two at night and on the weekend. Police, firefighters , nurses work long 12 hr shifts,over holidays , my point being, lots of people work very hard with much less vacation time than teachers.

 

[neg58]

NOT a personal attack on you, but this no textbook issue has been a pet peeve of mine as a parent for a long time!

If a teacher chooses to teach without a textbook - an issue I find causes MANY problems for students! - then they should be responsible for providing work for a student who will be out....
Unlesd "no textbook" is an excuse to just make up curriculum as you go along? Of course not. Lesson plans are submitted ahead of time.
College educators provide a syllabus. It is not unreasonable to expect this of teachers.

In light of prepared lesson plans, teachers who act put upon by parents DARING to request the lessons early are quite frustrating.

Copy and paste your lesson plan into an email and stop punishing, guilting, and intimidating your parents. Remember they pay your salary. You know, the one you receive during your 14 WEEK annual paid vacation.

**And as an aside - anyone planning a DCL vacation would have no problem answering your question above. Simple budgeting lol.
Maybe not on a graph, but then there is always more than one way to solve a problem.

I'm not a teacher, but take exception to this. The teachers don't choose not to use a text book, but the school board or school.

Parents do not pay the salaries of teachers, tax payers do. Tax payers also pay the salaries of those in the army, the mayor, the guy who cuts the grass at a city park. Do you have the right to tell them to 'remember who pays you - you answer to me' or criticize that some people get more vacation days than you think they should? One of my daughters currently has a teacher I don't like at all. I can't tell him how to do his job even though I think he's an idiot and the assignments he gives are stupid. I can, and did, request that my other daughter not have this teacher next semester. I will write a letter to the principal pointing out how much time this guy wastes and how he changes assignments at the last minute. If he gave an assignment before a vacation, it wouldn't be the same when the child turned it in.

But there are a lot of choices for schools. Pick one that you agree with. Many of you feel you can teach your children more by taking them out of school for trips, so home school them. Withdraw them so that the horrible, movie-showing schools don't get funding for them.

Nancy

 

[EllieMaie]

Agreed completely!! Some poster had the nerve to imply that parents aren't smart enough to teach their children different math problems etc. Math is taught very differently from when DH and I were in school. When our children bring their homework to us with questions often their response to our help is 'no, we don't do math that way and we can only use the way we do at school'. meanwhile, since I didn't go to teachers college recently, I have no way to teach them because we aren't provided with any materials to teach us the new way of doing things.

This brings me to another somewhat related topic. When DH misses work ( for vacation, business trip, illness ) he has twice as much to do when he returns. He has to get the work done somehow because it is his job. Shouldn't it be the same for a teacher assembling work for students? It is their job correct? It is unreasonable for teachers to think that students will never be absent. It is their job (within reason) to keep students up to date with the work when they have been absent. I'm not meaning a student who has been gone for an extended period of time I'm just meaning a few days. I just know I'm going to get slammed for this, but I get tired of the moaning from teachers. DH leaves at 6:15 for work, gets home at 6 and usually logs in for an hour or two at night and on the weekend. Police, firefighters , nurses work long 12 hr shifts,over holidays , my point being, lots of people work very hard with much less vacation time than teachers.

The teacher is not the one missing a day on the job. The student is missing for elective reasons. The analogy seems better suited that the student should expect to have twice as much work.

 

[slzer0]

I'm not a teacher, but take exception to this. The teachers don't choose not to use a text book, but the school board or school.

Parents do not pay the salaries of teachers, tax payers do. Tax payers also pay the salaries of those in the army, the mayor, the guy who cuts the grass at a city park. Do you have the right to tell them to 'remember who pays you - you answer to me' or criticize that some people get more vacation days than you think they should? One of my daughters currently has a teacher I don't like at all. I can't tell him how to do his job even though I think he's an idiot and the assignments he gives are stupid. I can, and did, request that my other daughter not have this teacher next semester. I will write a letter to the principal pointing out how much time this guy wastes and how he changes assignments at the last minute. If he gave an assignment before a vacation, it wouldn't be the same when the child turned it in.

But there are a lot of choices for schools. Pick one that you agree with. Many of you feel you can teach your children more by taking them out of school for trips, so home school them. Withdraw them so that the horrible, movie-showing schools don't get funding for them.

Nancy

The minute the mayor, the military, or the landscaper at the park tell me how to parent - or better yet claim they can (and have the right to) better do so.... you bet your Mickey Mouse PJ Bottoms I will say that, and a heck of a lot more.

;-)

We did choose differently. My daughter, as a high schooler, did not care for the out-of-left-field teaching methods at her charter school, and the homogenized crowd mentality towards lessons. She took a virtual course and was elated to have a syllabus (knowing what to expect!) and to receive individual attention without being singled out. She loved the active role she was given in her own education, and the control over when and how she learned.
She BEGGED to go full time. She was crushed to only learn about virtual school in her sophomore year. She will be graduating this year and is happy to actually UNDERSTAND her courses as opposed to regurgitating "correct" answers on a test. She is also well equipped for testing and has done very well with SAT ACT and EOC.
(Parents of young kids - get ready for EOC and pray your kids dont have test anxiety!)

I will say that some of our trips, like a weeklong musical festival, didn't contribute directly to academic education - but did provide some otherwise invaluable life lessons. And no, we can't go any other time of year.
Other vacations, like our river camping trip, dud directly impact her Biology course.

This isn't an impassioned argument for VS. Im just illustrating that Im not complaining from tge peanut gallery, we did take ACTION .

Don't let anyone - the school included - tell you what's best for your kids.
Her high school told me how she would fail, how it would never work... and look at her now!

 

[Dug720]

The teacher is not the one missing a day on the job. The student is missing for elective reasons. The analogy seems better suited that the student should expect to have twice as much work.

Also, a teacher's job does NOT end with the final bell. There are lesson plans to write, lessons to prepare, activities to create to go with those lessons, etc. Not to mention all the data collection and record keeping required by administration. Professional development we are required to complete.

And don't even bother to think about the money we shell out from our own pockets. In New York City, we get a reimbursement for $57 for the whole school year. That was gone in AUGUST as there was no budget for INK when we are REQUIRED to have picture symbols made for our non-verbal students - oh, and we don't have any laminating paper so you need to get that done as well since they have to use those symbols all the time. We'll give you ONE voice output device, but you have to get the batteries. And with your population (autism), iPads would be amazing - but that isn't in the budget...but it would enhance your professionalism so much...

Just...don't go there.