Your Opinion - Another Divorce Situation

[dzorn]

Well if I was Mary I think a nice long vacation to visit my mother would be in order. Let John watch his two chidren and manage his house for awhile. Maybe it would get Johns attention that she is serious if it doesn't then not much chance for this marriage long term anyway.

Is Jane paying child support?

Denise in MI

 

[NY Disney fan]

i love all this "mary knew what she was getting in to", "mary should honor the situation she married in to". Seriously, is everyone's lives so perfect and black and white? I know mine isn't. People change, people grow, kids grow up, people get wiser. Maybe we should be saying "john should have thought about this before asking another woman to be a party in this crazy divorce game". I am certainly not the same woman i was 15 years ago and thankfully my dh and i have grown together through that time, rather than be rigid and uncompromising.

It is simple, family dynamics have changed and john and jane's divorce agreement (which was seriously whacked and had no long term vision) is no longer working for all parties involved. John needs to be willing to make a new agreement or risk ripping apart another marriage.

thank you!

 

[horseshowmom]

I've seen it asked several times but haven't seen it answered yet - Does Jane pay child support?

I agree with others who say this situation is NOT workable in the long run. The parents tried what they thought would be a good idea, but the players in the drama have now changed.

John or Jane should buy the other one out (probably John since he has the kids and wants to keep them in a stable home - understandable). However, he and Jane are basically saying that this house is their children's home and not the new child's. Do the parents really think that their two sons are both going to live in the house when they're grown with their own families?


ETA: Truth be told, Mary should have seen this as a future trainwreck, but I think her husband and Jane should have as well.

 

[Northstar]

Another factor that's important because this is in Canada::

If John and Jane sell, Jane would have to pay capital gains taxes on any capital gains from her share because the house is longer her principal residence. (Don't know if this is the way it works in the US)

So one problem I see is that, no matter what John wants, Jane can block the sale of the house, has no incentive to change the status quo, and may have a significant tax liability if she agrees to sell the house.

Gigi22 also mentioned the very significant factor in Canada of whether John and Jane's deed says tenants in common (if John dies, Mary would probably inherit his share in the house) or joint tenants (if John dies, Jane would own the whole house)

Jane's got all the power here, for sure. She has a sweet deal as far as I can see. Why would she agree to John's attempt to renegotiate? She's got no reason to, unless he can sweeten the pot.

I agree with those who say Mary should stop fixating on the house. Let her look at it as a rental that they don't have to pay rent on, and focus on securing her and her child's financial future with the assets she and John have accumulated since their marriage.

 

[Skywalker]

I've seen it asked several times but haven't seen it answered yet - Does Jane pay child support?

I agree with others who say this situation is NOT workable in the long run. The parents tried what they thought would be a good idea, but the players in the drama have now changed.

John or Jane should buy the other one out (probably John since he has the kids and wants to keep them in a stable home - understandable). However, he and Jane are basically saying that this house is their children's home and not the new child's. Do the parents really think that their two sons are both going to live in the house when they're grown with their own families?


ETA: Truth be told, Mary should have seen this as a future trainwreck, but I think her husband and Jane should have as well.

The child support issue I am not positive, I'll have to ask my cousin but I honestly believe at this point Jane does not pay anything in child support. (Not to say she doesn't contribute as in buying clothes and paying for field trips when she wants to. It all seems very informal).

Also, Mary DOES work, and she and John pay the property taxes (which are sizeable) in addition to the other maintenace, updates, bills, etc. Yes, Mary's pay contributes to all of that, as well as obviously taking care of the boys. They have a "traditional" marriage in that they combine all income, there is no "hers" and "his"...all except the house of course.

 

[horseshowmom]

The child support issue I am not positive, I'll have to ask my cousin but I honestly believe at this point Jane does not pay anything in child support. (Not to say she doesn't contribute as in buying clothes and paying for field trips when she wants to. It all seems very informal).

Also, Mary DOES work, and she and John pay the property taxes (which are sizeable) in addition to the other maintenace, updates, bills, etc. Yes, Mary's pay contributes to all of that, as well as obviously taking care of the boys. They have a "traditional" marriage in that they combine all income, there is no "hers" and "his"...all except the house of course.

It really does seem as though Mary is getting the short end of this stick, but I don't think she has any options (other than leaving which would be sad). I agree with Northstar, Jane has no reason to change things (personally, it sounds like she's got a pretty good deal going with her ex subsidizing her living arrangements for the rest of her life if I understand correctly - it obviously didn't take that long to pay for the house to start with) and will no doubt refuse to alter the arrangement while Mary's income helps support the household expenses (one of the reasons why I wondered about child support).

My marriage is also a traditional one - no "his" or "hers", all "ours" - where the money is pooled. This situation would probably force me to rethink that arrangement (and I'm about as traditional as you can get ).

 

[tommya60]

I agree that this is about more than the house, but the house and the financial burden of the house is at the center of the problem....Jane should pay child support. John should quit paying Jane's rent (add up all the "rent since the divorce and see if it's half the value of the house--at the time of the divorce). If Jane is not paying child support, time for John to go to the appropriate authorities and ask for formal child support. And the amount needs to take into consideration the maintenance costs and taxes on the house that functionally belongs to the kids (ie Jane payments should be significant). That will free up money for Mary and John to purchase a house for their family (ie vacation home) and life insurance. And it gives Jane a reason to negotiate.
The lawyers who allowed this were very short sighted.

 

[chloelovesdisney]

I agree that this is about more than the house, but the house and the financial burden of the house is at the center of the problem....Jane should pay child support. John should quit paying Jane's rent (add up all the "rent since the divorce and see if it's half the value of the house--at the time of the divorce). If Jane is not paying child support, time for John to go to the appropriate authorities and ask for formal child support. And the amount needs to take into consideration the maintenance costs and taxes on the house that functionally belongs to the kids (ie Jane payments should be significant). That will free up money for Mary and John to purchase a house for their family (ie vacation home) and life insurance. And it gives Jane a reason to negotiate.
The lawyers who allowed this were very short sighted.

I'm sure if John wanted child support he would go to court for it, but it sounds like he prefers to fully support his own kids and also look out for the mother of two of his kids. I see the rent as similar to alimony, if he has the money and wants to still help Jane I don't see why anyone cares except his current wife.

 

[Skywalker]

I'm sure if John wanted child support he would go to court for it, but it sounds like he prefers to fully support his own kids and also look out for the mother of two of his kids. I see the rent as similar to alimony, if he has the money and wants to still help Jane I don't see why anyone cares except his current wife.

Yes, he wants to look out for Jane and his kids. That is even one of the things my cousin always liked about him, that he was honourable and wouldn't shirk his responsibilities. But now she wonders if that extends to her or just Jane.

An example, in the spring John said that he felt the house needed a new kitchen - all updated and fancy shmancy. Most wives would be thrilled right? Well then she found out that Jane would have a hand in picking everything out because, after all, it is her house. So now the kitchen has changed but still has Jane all over it. Mary had said her and John should decorate how they see fit, and if Jane ever takes possession of the house she can change it, etc. John said no. He said Mary can do whatever she wants in terms of smaller things (curtains, etc.) but not "major" things that really effect the house and its value.

Now she is a nice person but this type of thing can be crazy-making. How is she supposed to ever feel at home there?

She is great. She is the one that tells John and Jane what the kids really want for their birthdays. She is the one that suggested the two older boys were old enough to start getting their own allowance, things like that. She's always trying to take of everybody.

She knows that if she leaves it will spun as "greedy Mary left because she wasn't entitled to the house" but it is so much more than that.

I think this whole family hit the jackpot when they got Mary.

Yes, I may be biased but then she's never given me any reason not to be.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Yes, he wants to look out for Jane and his kids. That is even one of the things my cousin always liked about him, that he was honourable and wouldn't shirk his responsibilities. But now she wonders if that extends to her or just Jane.

An example, in the spring John said that he felt the house needed a new kitchen - all updated and fancy shmancy. Most wives would be thrilled right? Well then she found out that Jane would have a hand in picking everything out because, after all, it is her house. So now the kitchen has changed but still has Jane all over it. Mary had said her and John should decorate how they see fit, and if Jane ever takes possession of the house she can change it, etc. John said no. He said Mary can do whatever she wants in terms of smaller things (curtains, etc.) but not "major" things that really effect the house and its value.

Now she is a nice person but this type of thing can be crazy-making. How is she supposed to ever feel at home there?

She is great. She is the one that tells John and Jane what the kids really want for their birthdays. She is the one that suggested the two older boys were old enough to start getting their own allowance, things like that. She's always trying to take of everybody.

She knows that if she leaves it will spun as "greedy Mary left because she wasn't entitled to the house" but it is so much more than that.

I think this whole family hit the jackpot when they got Mary.

Yes, I may be biased but then she's never given me any reason not to be.

So is she lacking in something not to see that in her future? That is obvious to me. Wait till the teens start telling her what she can and can't do with the house.

Is she a doormat and too nice?

Why would she enter into an agreement that she has no hand in the house in the first place?

That is what has me stumped.

 

[Skywalker]

Well, Mystery Machine, what can I say? I don't know. Love? Even now she'd like to make it work because she still doesn't think the marriage itself is a mistake. But, if no one will compromise with her she will leave.

I really don't know what discussions they had before hand or how everything was presented or anything like that. I guess she thought it was workable.

It took her a while to see the writing on the wall I guess, but she is seeing it now. Sad though.

(And yes, she is probably too nice and a touch doormat-ish, lol)

 

[Eeyore'sthebest]

Yes, he wants to look out for Jane and his kids. That is even one of the things my cousin always liked about him, that he was honourable and wouldn't shirk his responsibilities. But now she wonders if that extends to her or just Jane.

An example, in the spring John said that he felt the house needed a new kitchen - all updated and fancy shmancy. Most wives would be thrilled right? Well then she found out that Jane would have a hand in picking everything out because, after all, it is her house. So now the kitchen has changed but still has Jane all over it. Mary had said her and John should decorate how they see fit, and if Jane ever takes possession of the house she can change it, etc. John said no. He said Mary can do whatever she wants in terms of smaller things (curtains, etc.) but not "major" things that really effect the house and its value.

Now she is a nice person but this type of thing can be crazy-making. How is she supposed to ever feel at home there?

She is great. She is the one that tells John and Jane what the kids really want for their birthdays. She is the one that suggested the two older boys were old enough to start getting their own allowance, things like that. She's always trying to take of everybody.

She knows that if she leaves it will spun as "greedy Mary left because she wasn't entitled to the house" but it is so much more than that.

I think this whole family hit the jackpot when they got Mary.

Yes, I may be biased but then she's never given me any reason not to be.

Bolding mine - Okay, I was in the too bad - so sad camp for Mary until you posted this. So she gets no say in her own kitchen but they are paying taxes, maintenance, upkeep, etc.???? I can't imagine that Mary wanted to put in crap but have a say in dark cabinets vs. light cabinets or granite vs. whatever countertops! Time for Mary to develop a backbone and tell John that he is no longer married to Jane. Seems like there are other issues at play here and not just the house. From what you have posted, and it is obviously one-sided, it appears that John hasn't divorced his feelings from Jane. I feel sorry for your cousin.

 

[Carly_Roach]

Yes, he wants to look out for Jane and his kids. That is even one of the things my cousin always liked about him, that he was honourable and wouldn't shirk his responsibilities. But now she wonders if that extends to her or just Jane.

An example, in the spring John said that he felt the house needed a new kitchen - all updated and fancy shmancy. Most wives would be thrilled right? Well then she found out that Jane would have a hand in picking everything out because, after all, it is her house. So now the kitchen has changed but still has Jane all over it. Mary had said her and John should decorate how they see fit, and if Jane ever takes possession of the house she can change it, etc. John said no. He said Mary can do whatever she wants in terms of smaller things (curtains, etc.) but not "major" things that really effect the house and its value.

She knows that if she leaves it will spun as "greedy Mary left because she wasn't entitled to the house" but it is so much more than that.

Regardless of who people believe is wrong or right, the entire matter boils down to what would make Mary happy? It sounds like Mary has no equitable solution to the problem she has. John is unwilling to do what Mary wants him to do, and Mary isn't happy because the house she's living in isn't 'hers'.

Issuing ultimatums such as, "If you loved me you would....." are manipulative tactics at best, and truth-revealing at worst. If the person does what you want to prove that they love you, there is always some resentment because that person feels controlled. If they come back and say, "Well, I guess I don't love you because I'm not going to do that", now you have to deal with the fact that your condition on your love hasn't been met and your partner has now admitted they don't love you because they can't meet your condition.

John and Jane aren't going to change. They have a paid off house between them and neither wants to go back to paying mortgage payments. Paying property taxes on the house, even significant taxes, doesn't come close to whatever balance there would be on a mortgage.

Mary has to decide what's going to make her happy and change herself and her living situation so that she can be happy. If she relies on others to do that, she'll lose far more often than she'll win. This is yet another case of answering the question: Would you rather be right or would you rather be happy? 30,000 people can say that Mary is right and John is wrong, but being right doesn't necessarily equate to being happy.

Mary should leave if she's unhappy.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Well, Mystery Machine, what can I say? I don't know. Love? Even now she'd like to make it work because she still doesn't think the marriage itself is a mistake. But, if no one will compromise with her she will leave.

I really don't know what discussions they had before hand or how everything was presented or anything like that. I guess she thought it was workable.

It took her a while to see the writing on the wall I guess, but she is seeing it now. Sad though.

(And yes, she is probably too nice and a touch doormat-ish, lol)

I am really having a hard time seeing a compromise here, the more I think about it. John is too rooted in his first marriage.

Since I have teens, all I can see is them telling her what she HAS to do for them otherwise we are tossing your can out on the street.

It is a horrible position to be in.

ETA....Perhaps this is the sticking point with Jane and John? In the event of a divorce they are keeping the house away from Mary. Which I do understand, as the house was bought and pd for during their marriage. I get that.

However extending it over to not being able to have any input on house arrangement and at the same time paying for upkeep is crossing the line in the sand imo. That was something that was not necessary. It will be downhill from here. Mary knows her place in the house now and so do the kids. She has to keep quiet about the house rules. I think they call that the "price of admission". I would say it would be impossible to deal with that.

 

[kellyg403]

Bolding mine - Okay, I was in the too bad - so sad camp for Mary until you posted this. So she gets no say in her own kitchen but they are paying taxes, maintenance, upkeep, etc.???? I can't imagine that Mary wanted to put in crap but have a say in dark cabinets vs. light cabinets or granite vs. whatever countertops! Time for Mary to develop a backbone and tell John that he is no longer married to Jane. Seems like there are other issues at play here and not just the house. From what you have posted, and it is obviously one-sided, it appears that John hasn't divorced his feelings from Jane. I feel sorry for your cousin.

I agree, me too! While I understand John honoring his divorce decree, and even giving whatever alimony or monetary compensation to Jane as agreed upon the part about the kitchen is RIDICULOUS! Sorry, but John is not paying attention to the bigger picture..he is no longer married to Jane and from the sounds of it Mary is taking care of the house, the kids and John. He needs to learn a little bit of loyalty for his new family and learn how to consolidate it to one big happy family.

I am now with Mary, John seems like he wants to be tooo nice to Jane who is appearing to do nothing much but go to work and call the kids every now and again while Mary does all the grunt work. Sounds like the two of them are using Mary.

Mary needs to move on and realize this situation is either going to deteriate further, taking her loses and move on. Or she finds a way to make John understand that she isn't his patsy...or Jane's.

Such a sad situation because Mary does seem like a really nice person.

Kelly

 

[Gigi22]

This is further to the inquiry about Jane paying child support to John, and John's contributions to Jane's condo rent. To me it looks like a trade-off negotiated by Jane and John.
Technically speaking, since John resides in the house that is only 1/2 his, he should be paying Jane rent for the ongoing use of her 1/2 of the house. My best guess would be that John and Jane agreed that the 1/2 value of the house was roughly equal to 1/2 the value of her rent and any child support that a court might allow--and went with a simpler transaction to even things out: John's ongoing contribution of 1/2 Jane's rent.
The housing market in Ontario, where all 3 parties live, is quite good. Depending on the location of the house, there's a very good chance that the value of the house has appreciated considerably since purchase.
For income tax purposes I believe child support used to be considered as income for the spouse receiving it--not sure about this, it may have changed. The current situation may be a significant tax advantage for John.

 

[Northstar]

Okay, Skywalker. Your cousin needs serious advice here! Be a good cuz and pass on my two cents for her to mull over:

1. Whether she decides to divorce (because John is too wrapped up in Jane and first family) or not, she needs to work on securing her and her child's financial future NOW. She needs to stop putting her money into the common pool. Justification: "what's mine is yours" does not apply to John, so it shouldn't apply to Mary. She should open a bank account in her name, arrange for her salary to be deposited in it, and then (with John) decide how much she should be contributing to ONGOING household expenses... buying groceries but not paying the property taxes.

2. If it were me, I would explain the new arrangement to John like this: "I want to own a house of my own some day. I understand that you might not be able to contribute much to this, because you have a lot tied up in this house. So I need to save my money. I think I should contribute $xx to our joint account every month. I think that's fair. What do you think?"
John's reaction to this would go a long way towards determining whether I would walk or work it out.

3. Mary needs to consult a tax advisor/financial planner to advise her the best way to manage her money. If John's making more than she is, they should be using her money to invest and his to pay household expenses anyway, because she will be in a lower tax bracket (note to Americans reading this: Canadians do not file joint tax returns though your spouse's income makes a difference in what tax credits you can apply for)

So in a nutshell, Mary needs to separate her hurt feelings and worry about John's lack of commitment from her financial decisions. Getting her finances in order will help whether she walks or whether she stays (once she feels less exploited, she may not resent John and Jane's agreement so much)

 

[wilderness01]

Northstar, that was wonderful advice. Good luck to Mary, this isn't an easy road.

Although honorable, it seems like the connection is stronger to Jane than to Mary.

That is just weird that Jane got to pick out the new kitchen. Mary sounds like a guest/maid/caregiver in that house.

There are plenty of divorces where one spouse stays in the house and the other doesn't, but is owed money after the kids get to a certain age for the buyout. I've NEVER heard of the ex spouse having so much say in the once marital house.

It sounds like Mary is correct in her feelings that his first family comes first. Shouldn't both families be equal? I don't like when the "first kids" are forgotten or put on the back burner, don't get me wrong, but it sounds like his new son is the red headed step child, and that is just wrong.

 

[wdwfan16]

Yes, he wants to look out for Jane and his kids. That is even one of the things my cousin always liked about him, that he was honourable and wouldn't shirk his responsibilities. But now she wonders if that extends to her or just Jane.

An example, in the spring John said that he felt the house needed a new kitchen - all updated and fancy shmancy. Most wives would be thrilled right? Well then she found out that Jane would have a hand in picking everything out because, after all, it is her house. So now the kitchen has changed but still has Jane all over it. Mary had said her and John should decorate how they see fit, and if Jane ever takes possession of the house she can change it, etc. John said no. He said Mary can do whatever she wants in terms of smaller things (curtains, etc.) but not "major" things that really effect the house and its value.

Now she is a nice person but this type of thing can be crazy-making. How is she supposed to ever feel at home there?

She is great. She is the one that tells John and Jane what the kids really want for their birthdays. She is the one that suggested the two older boys were old enough to start getting their own allowance, things like that. She's always trying to take of everybody.

She knows that if she leaves it will spun as "greedy Mary left because she wasn't entitled to the house" but it is so much more than that.

I think this whole family hit the jackpot when they got Mary.

Yes, I may be biased but then she's never given me any reason not to be.

Who paid for the kitchen remodel? Did Jane contribute and not Mary. I could see Jane getting a say if she payed for some or all of it.

 

[lillygator]

I'd be outta there in a hot minute....now WAY would an ex wife have any say in the home I lived in. Sounds like John is WAY to involved with his ex.