Wow....

I think what some forget is this plan is not about the poorest of the poor, the lazy ones who made bad decisions..They already get free healthcare in most places...The ones this will insure are mostly lower middle class and the straight middle class..The working class who has to choose between,food and housing or health care.
 
No problem with taxes going up - If they go up for everybody. I think the fact that Americans that make more money pay a higher percent than those who make less is wrong.

Don't get it wrong. They are TAXED at a higher rate. They also afford the best accountants and find the best loop holes. If the government kept all of the money it taxed from everyone, then I could hear your argument, but the richer you are, the more you can figure out how to get back more of your taxes.
 
Why would it be? Again, you are assuming things that aren't true. Nothing will change for you, but it will change for the millions of people that it needs to change for. How is that bad and how will it negatively effect you?

Because I had to suddenly wait three weeks to get an appointment with my doctor who I can currently get an appointment with within a day or two--that day if I need it.

Anne
 
I am not going to elaborate because I do not want to start a debate and I do not want to cause conflict but I do not believe our taxes should go up to help the less fortunate.

My Wife and I help the less fortunate when we can but I do not feel I should be forced.

I'm another one is agrees with this person.
 

If she made less she would not be able to clothe, feed and house her children in near squalor. As it is she can't afford her own healthcare or schooling for her children. She lives every month paycheck to paycheck juggling what she can pay that month.

She in no way makes enough to pay her bills. No fancy cars, no cable TV or internet, no vacations.


I'm not saying she's struggling, but the fact remains that if she made less income she'd get a higher daycare subsidy.

Anne
 
Because I had to suddenly wait three weeks to get an appointment with my doctor who I can currently get an appointment with within a day or two--that day if I need it.

Anne

You are again assuming that will happen. Wait times in the US, Canada, or any other country aren't based on your healthcare. They are based on where you live and the availability of doctors in oyur area. If you don't wait long now, then chances are you won't wait long if things change.
 
Because I had to suddenly wait three weeks to get an appointment with my doctor who I can currently get an appointment with within a day or two--that day if I need it.

Anne

People around here wait 6 weeks or more on average for appointments...It took my mother 8 months for a cancer diagnosis..It took 6 months from the day they found the tumors to the day she had them removed.. They found them in Dec, She had the surgery in Late April /early May
 
I don't see it as entitlement, I see it as knowing what your priorities are in life. There are posters on the DIS boards who have publicly stated they have no health insurance, yet they plan $2000+ trips to WDW. We took a $210 trip to Vero Beach this year, because our priority is to make sure we have the best health care possible. DH's company offers six or seven different plans, we chose the best--and most expensive by far--plan. That's our priority.

Anne

But don't you understand that everyone does not have that choice? Just because you know some people who could afford health insurance and make the choice to not purchase it does not mean that those who do not have those same choices do not deserve some level of basic care. It does not necessarily mean that their priorities are out of whack with what you think they should be.

Those people who could purchase insurance and are choosing to not do so would start having to pay higher taxes for the UHC plan so at least they are being forced to pay something in exchange for their care. Would you prefer instead they spend that money on vacations and the taxpayers get the total bill when they get really sick?
 
Because I had to suddenly wait three weeks to get an appointment with my doctor who I can currently get an appointment with within a day or two--that day if I need it.

Anne

But that's happening now for people and it has absolutely nothing to do with health insurance. I posted all ready about my average wait times for appointments.
 
I understand that--but taxes will go up, and I'm not buying it that my insurance premiums will go down. That's the part I ahve a problem with.

Anne

Your taxes are going to continue to go up regardless. At least if my taxes go up for this reason they help someone that could one day god forbid be YOU and your family.

No one likes to have taxes raised but they will continue to happen if not for health care for something else. It's a fact of life here...death and taxes!

And you don't know that your premiums WON'T go down or how great of a tax increase *if any* will be incurred by you or any of us who pay taxes. Your assuming these things and you know what's been said of assuming ;)
 
You said you were in the top tax bracket. Which married, filing jointly, is 35 percent, with a min income of 349,400 and above. Or married filing separately would be a min income of 174,850 and above.

Sorry, I goofed, not quite the highest. Either way, I'm already paying way too much in taxes. Unlike the Duggars I don't have a bajillion kids to write off.

Anne
 
Don't get it wrong. They are TAXED at a higher rate. They also afford the best accountants and find the best loop holes. If the government kept all of the money it taxed from everyone, then I could hear your argument, but the richer you are, the more you can figure out how to get back more of your taxes.

That almost seems like a punishment for making more money. Richer folks may have more resources, but why should they pay at a higher rate? Look at Mike Tyson. The guy was a multi millionaire, but because he was so stupid, he lost all of his money. Being rich doesn't make you smart.
 
Sorry, I goofed, not quite the highest. Either way, I'm already paying way too much in taxes. Unlike the Duggars I don't have a bajillion kids to write off.

Anne

That doesn't save you as much as you think.
 
What if it meant that my cancer was caught later as a result?

Anne

If you are insured and getting preventative care it is more likely that the cancer would still be caught in time to give you a good outcome if possible even if you had to wait two weeks longer than you do now. What about those who currently do not have insurance and wait too long to be seen because they can't afford it and their cancer is caught a year later than it would have been if they had insurance? With UHC these lives could be saved as well as yours. Does that really not count for anything with you?
 
Don't get it wrong. They are TAXED at a higher rate. They also afford the best accountants and find the best loop holes. If the government kept all of the money it taxed from everyone, then I could hear your argument, but the richer you are, the more you can figure out how to get back more of your taxes.

Actually that's the really wealthy. We don't make enough to shelter our money in legal loopholes. Our only deductions are our mortgage and property taxes, and a small amount that I take as out of pocket expenses for my very small side business. I only take true OOP expenses, and pay taxes on the income (and no, I don't hide any of it). The only way that we "shelter" money is by putting as much of our income into tax deferred retirement accounts as possible. That's a "shelter" that's avaialble to everyone.

Anne
 
Is it selfish of me to expect the fruits of my labor to be... well... mine? If it is, then call me selfish. Is it selfish of me to expect people to take responsibility for their own lives? If it is, then call me selfish. Is it selfish of me to expect people to live with the consequences of their decisions? If it is, then call me selfish.

From my perspective, expecting others to take care of me is far more selfish.

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. "

-- Thomas Jefferson
:thumbsup2 :thumbsup2

If the governement taxes me heavy enough I will be on the othe side and then they will need to hand me back my tax money less overhead that they incurred to take it from me, evaluate if I now need it and then get it back to me.
 
That almost seems like a punishment for making more money. Richer folks may have more resources, but why should they pay at a higher rate? Look at Mike Tyson. The guy was a multi millionaire, but because he was so stupid, he lost all of his money. Being rich doesn't make you smart.

No, but it gives you access to more people that will be smart for you. Sure, people have gone from rich to poor, but that's not what we are tlaking about. It would be for a whole different thread, but if we didn't tax at a higher rate, then the rich would probably pay in less with the added tax breaks and loop holes they find with the friendly neighborhood CPA.
 
But don't you understand that everyone does not have that choice? Just because you know some people who could afford health insurance and make the choice to not purchase it does not mean that those who do not have those same choices do not deserve some level of basic care. It does not necessarily mean that their priorities are out of whack with what you think they should be.

Those people who could purchase insurance and are choosing to not do so would start having to pay higher taxes for the UHC plan so at least they are being forced to pay something in exchange for their care. Would you prefer instead they spend that money on vacations and the taxpayers get the total bill when they get really sick?

I've already stated that I think the healthcare system is messed up and that something needs to change. But I don't want it to cost taxpayers more, and I don't want it to affect my current level of care. If someone can come up with a plan that meets those standards, I'm all for it.

Anne
 
I'm not saying she's struggling, but the fact remains that if she made less income she'd get a higher daycare subsidy.

Anne

So what you are saying is that you would rather her go on welfare then to take part in a universal healthcare system,(If I wasn't paying it that would be her only choice) so that you would not have an increased wait to see a doctor? However you are ok with several people going without so you can have yours?


I don't get it. If we all bend a little we can all benefit.
 
This is an article that was posted in our paper on Sunday. I think it speaks VOLUMES.

For those tortured souls so invested in defeat and pessimism, the Census Bureau's report on poverty is little more than an annual exercise in pointing out the horrible deficiencies of American capitalism. Never mind that we now have a record number of Americans with health insurance; the doom-and-gloomers focus on those without it -- even though most of them live in households with incomes above $50,000 a year or are eligible for government health programs but not enrolled.
Disregard for a moment that median household income, adjusted for inflation, rose again in 2006, to $48,451 nationwide. Here in the Twin Cities, the supposed epicenter of poverty in Minnesota, it stood at $62,223. Not surprisingly, then, the August figures show the first significant drop in poverty in a decade, with the "official" rate declining from 12.6 percent in 2005 to 12.3 percent.

Since the federal tax cuts of 2003, the economy has added $1.3 trillion in real output, growing more than 3 percent annually, according to Investors Business Daily. Business spending is way up, adding 8 million new jobs, and real labor compensation per hour has rebounded, with wages advancing 3.9 percent from a year ago. Even with a slight decline in job creation in August, the nation's unemployment rate remained in record low territory at 4.6 percent. Oh, and yes, even the volatile Dow Jones has regained its lost ground from the bursting of the high-tech bubble and from 9/11 -- and then some.

But, alas, liberals need a crisis. An exaggerated view of poverty in America works just fine, thank you -- especially if you're trying to raise taxes. So when John Edwards isn't getting $400 haircuts (or was that Bill Clinton?) or strolling around his mansion, the born-again populist is usually talking about "two Americas," suggesting that some 37 million of our fellow citizens are struggling with "incredible poverty." But have you ever wondered how such rampant starvation can exist in the midst of a nationwide obesity crisis?

Well, as Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation points out, it doesn't. If you look at the living conditions of those folks the government defines as impoverished, you'll discover that America's poor lead far better lives than do many middle-class citizens overseas. To wit:

• 46 percent of all poor households in America actually own their homes.

• Most own a car, and 31 percent of poor households own two or more.

• 78 percent have a DVD or VCR player; 62 percent have cable or satellite television.

• One third of poor households have both cell and landline telephones.

• And 80 percent have air conditioning -- significant, since as recently as 1970 only 36 percent of all American households had it.

Indeed, if you measure consumption (and assets) as opposed to only cash income, you get an entirely different picture of poverty in the United States. Far from being malnourished, 89 percent of poor families, as Rector explains, say they have "enough" food to eat, while 2 percent say they do not.

Which isn't to say there aren't serious problems for those living below the poverty line. However, since 1964 this nation has devoted more than $6.5 trillion toward "Great Society" programs, and the poverty rate hasn't fallen any faster than it did in the 1950s and early '60s. Which is to say that the modern welfare state has been successful in sustaining a permanent underclass, but has done little to move it toward self-sufficiency.

Furthermore, since the Census Bureau figures don't include the value of noncash government benefits, such as food stamps, housing subsidies, Medicaid or even the Earned Income Tax Credit, the data suggest a far wider gap in lifestyles between John Edwards and middle America than between poor and average households.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with getting wealthy. Before the politics of envy became the sine qua non of liberal Democrats, John Kennedy was talking about a rising tide lifting all boats -- even the rich ones. Yet even after eight years of Clinton-Gore policy, the income share of the richest 1 percent rose to a post-World War II high of 20.8 percent in 2000, according to the Tax Foundation. Today, what it takes to be a member of the leisure class is slightly higher, but the group's overall share of income isn't, suggesting there's more to solving the problems of the underclass than raising taxes on the wealthy.

Then again, the pessimist can always hope for a recession, or better yet, a depression. Because that's when the so-called income gap really shrinks, as the well-to-do lose much more than the downtrodden -- though both lose. But that, unfortunately, tends to be a bit of hard sell on the campaign trail.

Jason Lewis hosts a weekday talk show from 4 to 7 p.m. on KTLK Radio (100.3 FM).
 


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