Wow....

[Tinks]

After much though I've decided that all socialized programs should just go away. As a matter of fact, no more taxes period. Everyone must fend for themselves.

If you want better roads, nicer schools, bigger libraries, fire and police departments, you better start making nice with your bank b/c you're going to need quite a large loan.

Wow...it sounds like you didn't want to hear the responses you got. I'm sorry you feel (or sound) so offended.

I do think people want an answer, a good answer and a good solution to this problem. Many of us believe the government isn't a good solution. It has nothing to do with not wanting to help and not wanting the best for all people.

I certainly don't want to lumped into the category that people who can't afford care or don't have care should fend for themselves because it's all their fault anyway. I just don't believe that.

I hope you feel better.

 

[ducklite]

I wrote this for another thread…… but I feel ok to post it here.



I find it kind of ironic how we all complain about how rude Americans have become, how we all have the mentality of me and mine. We do not say hello anymore or hold the door. However when you bring healthcare into the equation the very people who complain shout the biggest no ever heard. What is so wrong with helping our fellow Americans have basic care? Ok maybe it cost me more money out of pocket, so what. The very people who call themselves Christian are some of the loudest in the no camp. I just do not get it.

I disagree. I think that many who 'claim" they can't afford health care in all honesty can. They CHOOSE not to. Instead they drive fancy cars with $400 a month lease payments (I work with half a dozen that fit that category), take vacations every year, work for employers who don't provide insurance because it's "too much hassle" to work for one that will, but actually requires a person to work, or think they are invincible and don't need to 'waste" the money on it. (I work with one of those--she's an obese 58 year old women who hasn't been to the doctor in years--of course when she strokes out we'll all get stuck paying her hospital bills.)

There are plenty of people who could buy a private policy but instead spend their money to send their kids to private school or get their nails done every week. When I read these statistics about uninsured Americans, I wonder how many could ahve insurance but choose not to because they do'nt consider it a priority. I have a feeling it's a much higher number than many suspect.

Anne

 

[CheshireVal]

I disagree. I think that many who 'claim" they can't afford health care in all honesty can. They CHOOSE not to. Instead they drive fancy cars with $400 a month lease payments (I work with half a dozen that fit that category), take vacations every year, work for employers who don't provide insurance because it's "too much hassle" to work for one that will, but actually requires a person to work, or think they are invincible and don't need to 'waste" the money on it. (I work with one of those--she's an obese 58 year old women who hasn't been to the doctor in years--of course when she strokes out we'll all get stuck paying her hospital bills.)

There are plenty of people who could buy a private policy but instead spend their money to send their kids to private school or get their nails done every week. When I read these statistics about uninsured Americans, I wonder how many could ahve insurance but choose not to because they do'nt consider it a priority. I have a feeling it's a much higher number than many suspect.

Anne

But you don't know. I'm not sure I've ever seen so many assumptions and sweeping generalizations in one post.

 

[wvjules]

Wow...it sounds like you didn't want to hear the responses you got. I'm sorry you feel (or sound) so offended.

I do think people want an answer, a good answer and a good solution to this problem. Many of us believe the government isn't a good solution. It has nothing to do with not wanting to help and not wanting the best for all people.

I certainly don't want to lumped into the category that people who can't afford care or don't have care should fend for themselves because it's all their fault anyway. I just don't believe that.

I hope you feel better.

Haha...no I got the the answers I was expecting. I don't articulate my thoughts very well. lol

It just seems to me that some are willing to pay for taxes for some things and not others. How can a person's well being not be a priority? (Be it with temporary food stamps, UHC, WIC, EITC, housing assistance, etc.)

 

[jimmiej]

Ok, I'll jump into the fire

Is it selfish of me to expect the fruits of my labor to be... well... mine? If it is, then call me selfish. Is it selfish of me to expect people to take responsibility for their own lives? If it is, then call me selfish. Is it selfish of me to expect people to live with the consequences of their decisions? If it is, then call me selfish.

From my perspective, expecting others to take care of me is far more selfish.

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. "

-- Thomas Jefferson

IA with Costanza...I mean Art V.

 

[DISUNC]

I am with the OP on this.

I still see the USA as a Democratic nation and we have Civic duties/responsibilities.

Too many people want to see this Country as strickly a Capitalistic Society!

 

[PghLybrt]

I disagree. I think that many who 'claim" they can't afford health care in all honesty can. They CHOOSE not to. Instead they drive fancy cars with $400 a month lease payments (I work with half a dozen that fit that category), take vacations every year, work for employers who don't provide insurance because it's "too much hassle" to work for one that will, but actually requires a person to work, or think they are invincible and don't need to 'waste" the money on it. (I work with one of those--she's an obese 58 year old women who hasn't been to the doctor in years--of course when she strokes out we'll all get stuck paying her hospital bills.)

There are plenty of people who could buy a private policy but instead spend their money to send their kids to private school or get their nails done every week. When I read these statistics about uninsured Americans, I wonder how many could ahve insurance but choose not to because they do'nt consider it a priority. I have a feeling it's a much higher number than many suspect.

Anne

I can assure you that my girlfriend cannot get insurance. She has a good job, works for a small business. No it does not provide healthcare, however simply changing jobs is not the answer.

She could get coverage if she just chose to not work. She has applied many times for insurance and is denied every time due to pre existing conditions. She make to much money to use the state health insurance. We pay all of her medical bills out of pocket. This year it was almost 3 times her salary. Yes we take vacations, I pay for them. I also pay for my sister in laws health insurance as well as her 2 sons schooling as she works over an hour away from home and cannot put them in local schools. I am not saying this to toot my own horn I am saying this so you know I am willing to put my money where my mouth and beliefs are. Many , to many, are just lip service.

And as for the people who are taking vacations and running around in expensive cars, well we must run in very different circles. The majority of my friends are holding down 2 to 3 jobs just trying to make ends meet, many uninsured.

 

[ducklite]

Haha...no I got the the answers I was expecting. I don't articulate my thoughts very well. lol

It just seems to me that some are willing to pay for taxes for some things and not others. How can a person's well being not be a priority? (Be it with temporary food stamps, UHC, WIC, EITC, housing assistance, etc.)

The problem is that for far too many it's NOT a temporary situation, it's a lifetime of collecting taxpayer funded government assistance with no strings attached.

I know a guy who owns two houses and just got approved for medicare for his healthy kid because he doesn't want to spend the money for health insurance (which is available through his union) he'd rather spend it on eating out, buying cigarettes, getting $800 tattoo's, and buying his wife who doesn't work a brand new car to replace her four year old car. Can you really tell me the system isn't messed up?

Anne

 

[rgf207]

Haha...no I got the the answers I was expecting. I don't articulate my thoughts very well. lol

It just seems to me that some are willing to pay for taxes for some things and not others. How can a person's well being not be a priority? (Be it with temporary food stamps, UHC, WIC, EITC, housing assistance, etc.)

This is why a reallocation of our taxes is a great idea. I'm sure noone here wants to see people suffer but how can we help everyone. It's just not possible and raising taxes isn't going to make it all go away.

We have a summer place in Canada. Canadians do not pay for healthcare. Have you ever spoken to someone living in Canada how they feel about their healthcare. A lot of people hate it. Sure they dont pay for it up front but have you seen their taxes. 15% on every dollar in just sales tax not to mention the other taxes. Plus, depending on your situation, it may be days or weeks before you see a doctor for something that may be very serious. The 4+ hours sitting in the ER for us would be a gift to some.

Free healthcare is not always the best solution.

 

[Christine]

But you don't know. I'm not sure I've ever seen so many assumptions and sweeping generalizations in one post.

MTE! Over the last day or so I have seen so many sweeping generalizations I'm astounded.

First, I find out that most kids with food allergies are exaggerating because we've all met the one person who *thinks* they have an allergy and they want to bring attention to themselves. In that same thread, we find out that most kids don't really have ADHD, they just need a little discipline and their parents don't want to make them behave.

Now, I seeing that most people who don't have healthcare do it because they would rather pay for the Lexus or the nice things in life. Sort of like working moms too--they keep working to have the McMansion and Lexus because we all know that no mother really needs to work, right?

The generalizations are crazy and, honestly, it harks back to the days of racism and prejudice because a group of people are sitting on their ivory pillar!

Sure, we've ALL met a few abusers. Maybe I'm just a glass-half-full person but I do not, for a minute, believe that the majority of our population wants to be this way.

Sometimes it's hard to get to the right places. For instance, if I were to retire from my company I would get NO retirement healthcare. None. What am I going to do? Well, in the meantime, I've been trying for 3 years to get into the Federal Government so that this will be there for me (providing the government doesn't change their mind). Do you KNOW how hard it is to get in? I'm trying and so are lots of other people.

You just can't KNOCK people based on the handful of abusers you met or read about.

 

[freckles and boo]

IA with Costanza...I mean Art V.

Correct me if I am wrong, Jimmie, but aren't there a few bible verses that run counter to this particular train of thought?

 

[wvjules]

The problem is that for far too many it's NOT a temporary situation, it's a lifetime of collecting taxpayer funded government assistance with no strings attached.

I know a guy who owns two houses and just got approved for medicare for his healthy kid because he doesn't want to spend the money for health insurance (which is available through his union) he'd rather spend it on eating out, buying cigarettes, getting $800 tattoo's, and buying his wife who doesn't work a brand new car to replace her four year old car. Can you really tell me the system isn't messed up?

Anne

Of course the system is messed up. No one is claiming that it isn't. The whole country needs fixed as far as I'm concerned. However (I hate bring Iraq into this), for our current government, charity starts everywhere but home. Also, no matter how good the system is, there will always be someone that figures out how to "work" it.

 

[TinkerbellMama]

It's ignorant to think that just because people don't support the government's income redistribution programs, they aren't warmhearted or generous. I am NOT a selfish person. I will always try to help those less fortunate than myself. However, I do NOT believe the lies about how taxation is the best, most efficient way to do so. I also don't think it's right to FORCE people to support others. How is THAT okay? Answer: it's not. This is just another red herring thrown out there by people in power: if you don't support our policies, you are a cold-hearted monster (but we can steal from you and that's fine)! Sorry--but you are WAY off base.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I still want to believe that people object because they see too much fraud and waste and fear more of the same, not because they don't think people deserve to have health care.

We're never going to make anything fraud proof, someone will always figure out a way to beat the system-but we really do need to do better. If we could eliminate much of the fraud and get rid of the loopholes in the tax system that allow people to hide their money from the IRS-we might not need to raise taxes to provide for people at all.

 

[mrsltg]

Are we, as Americans, that selfish that we don't want our taxes to go up slightly to help the less fortunate?

I'm just shaking my head at how selfish we seem to be as a whole. (Not pointing to any individual poster.)

I've been the one receiving Medicaid, getting EITC, even got food stamps briefly. Fortunately I'm no longer in that situation anymore. However, I have NO problem with my taxes going to social programs to help the less fortunate. Sure there are going ot be people that abuse the system, but should all less fortunate suffer b/c of a few bad apples.

I'm truely perplexed at how selfish we have become, or maybe always have been.

I'm rambling....anyway

Actually, no, Americans are by far the most generous people in the world. It's called 'charity' when one helps the less fortunate and it is done based on choice. Social programs, no matter how you cut it, are charity. Taking money, by force, from one person to give it to another - no matter how worthy someone feels person B is, and how much more entitled person B is than person A - is theft. It was wrong in the days of Robin Hood and it's wrong now. However, if person A decides they want to give Person B any amount of money, that is at the discretion of person A. Person A is not selfish because they choose who they want to give too.

 

[mrsltg]

Correct me if I am wrong, Jimmie, but aren't there a few bible verses that run counter to this particular train of thought?

Not a single one. Helping people is a matter of choice, when it's done by force and against your will - essentially because you will go to jail if you don't - it's not at all Christian.

 

[punkin]

The problem is that for far too many it's NOT a temporary situation, it's a lifetime of collecting taxpayer funded government assistance with no strings attached.

I know a guy who owns two houses and just got approved for medicare for his healthy kid because he doesn't want to spend the money for health insurance (which is available through his union) he'd rather spend it on eating out, buying cigarettes, getting $800 tattoo's, and buying his wife who doesn't work a brand new car to replace her four year old car. Can you really tell me the system isn't messed up?

Anne

How is this possible? Maybe the kid isn't as healthy as he seems because medicare is not available to anyone who is not over 65 or disabled AFAIK.

 

[FayeW]

This is why a reallocation of our taxes is a great idea. I'm sure noone here wants to see people suffer but how can we help everyone. It's just not possible and raising taxes isn't going to make it all go away.

We have a summer place in Canada. Canadians do not pay for healthcare. Have you ever spoken to someone living in Canada how they feel about their healthcare. A lot of people hate it. Sure they dont pay for it up front but have you seen their taxes. 15% on every dollar in just sales tax not to mention the other taxes. Plus, depending on your situation, it may be days or weeks before you see a doctor for something that may be very serious. The 4+ hours sitting in the ER for us would be a gift to some.

Free healthcare is not always the best solution.

This is a thread started by an American, about American values and I was staying out of it until you brought Canada into it!

I don't know where your summer place is, but all the Canadians I know love our health care system. If there is something seriously wrong with me, I don't even bother to call my doctor, I go straight to one of the several walk in clinincs in my area, or I go to ER.

I am surprised to find out people are dying in ER waiting rooms in this country...oh wait, that was in America.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

[rgf207]

I think I have a very bitter taste in my mouth about being forced to pay more taxes to help others because I have seen, for the past 25 years, people constantly abuse the system to get more money and do nothing for it.

My mother is a social worker and a lot of her clients abuse the system to no end. That is where a lot of our tax dollars are going. So if we raise taxes, yet again, does anyone really think it will have any effect on the situation.

My mom is just 1 of the hundreds of thousands of social workers. How many people do you think abuse the system. This is the main reason why I am against it.

 

[Art Vandalay]

IA with Costanza...I mean Art V.

I'm thinking of changing my name to Darth Vader