Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

[RobDoc]

I think it's applicable to all resorts depending on their specifics. SSR doesn't have dedicated smaller units but at least for OKW (which also doesn't have smaller decimated units) there is wording the gives a maximum for each unit size but I don't have the POS for either of those resorts specifically only 2 versions of the multiple site POS along with OKW & BWV. I do have a newer multi side and AKV somewhere but it's not handy, I'd have to dig for it. But remember this can change and I believe much of this in the POS could change unilaterally.

Here is the Maximum Reallocation info for OKW from the May, 1993 POS :

 

[Jerry5788]

I have not read this full thread as I’m confused. Disney is changing the points in 2020 and I imagine must follow in lines with the terms/conditions when we bought then what’s the problem?

You can say they are pushing to make us upgrade rooms, bigger vacations, or buy more points but that is there right.

A lawsuit seems what is wrong with America. Just like the person who gets burnt by coffee and dues saying it was served too hot.

 

[glamdring269]

After reading through a few of the threads on this I'm starting to go down the nefarious corporate plot path. If they truly built the bungalows and cabins on the backs of folks who will never actually stay there, which we know they did, then you just have to assume that every move they make from this point forward is working against us. Not for us. There is no pixie dust to be found here within this conversation so might as well remove that from your mind. It simply clouds your vision to the truth.

The first sign should have been the release timing. If it were truly in our best interest this would have been discussed at the meeting. I'm sure they are aware of all of this chatter and if the moves were truly in our interest then we should be hearing something. The second sign will be silence.

For the record, I'm not advocating for some kind of lawsuit here. A conversation needs to happen first and foremost. But folks really need to stop assuming DVC is your magical buddy and separate this business side of things from the magic you experience when physically visiting the property.

 

[glamdring269]

I have not read this full thread as I’m confused. Disney is changing the points in 2020 and I imagine must follow in lines with the terms/conditions when we bought then what’s the problem?

You can say they are pushing to make us upgrade rooms, bigger vacations, or buy more points but that is there right.

A lawsuit seems what is wrong with America. Just like the person who gets burnt by coffee and dues saying it was served too hot.

You seem to blindly trust the corporation and then opine about something being wrong with America. This is given away by stating "I have not read" "I'm confused" "I imagine must follow". You should always question and not just assume that the corporation is out for your best interest. I couldn't care less if it's Disney or Facebook. There is absolutely nothing wrong with checking to be sure you aren't getting screwed as opposed to just taking it because you think you probably signed yourself up for it.

 

[Jerry5788]

You seem to blindly trust the corporation and then opine about something being wrong with America. This is given away by stating "I have not read" "I'm confused" "I imagine must follow". You should always question and not just assume that the corporation is out for your best interest. I couldn't care less if it's Disney or Facebook. There is absolutely nothing wrong with checking to be sure you aren't getting screwed as opposed to just taking it because you think you probably signed yourself up for it.

Correct - we signed up for it. It’s the same thing with dues you have no say because one Disney entity approves what another Disney entity proposes. Corporate governance maybe an issue but we should be aware of this when we buy into +40yr contracts - they don’t force us to buy in. Disney is a business they don’t have to represent our best interest. I am questioning why should we sue them as it’s common knowledge when you buy in (i.e. a frivolous lawsuit).

Disney and Facebook for that matter have lawyers and they pay them a ton to read through the fine print. I am sure what they are doing is legally (perhaps not morally) justifiable.

 

[glamdring269]

Correct - we signed up for it. It’s the same thing with dues you have no say because one Disney entity approves what another Disney entity proposes. We are aware of these things when we buy in. Disney is a business they don’t have to represent our best interest. I am questioning why should we sue them as it’s common knowledge when you buy in (i.e. a frivolous lawsuit).

How do you even know it's frivolous? You said in your post "I imagine must follow in lines with the terms/conditions when we bought then what’s the problem?". Why do you imagine this? Because you believe Disney would never do something they're not supposed to do?

 

[Jerry5788]

How do you even know it's frivolous? You said in your post "I imagine must follow in lines with the terms/conditions when we bought then what’s the problem?". Why do you imagine this? Because you believe Disney would never do something they're not supposed to do?

Guess I will read this more tomorrow. But still don’t get it. Aren’t totally points used to book to DVC staying the same at each resort. I understand totally points for specific rooms might have changed but hasn’t this been the long thing suggested at poly (bungalows less and studios more).

 

[crvetter]

Here is the Maximum Reallocation info for OKW from the May, 1993 POS :

Interesting I didn’t realize OKW had a maximum reallocation chart. That doesn’t exist in my CCV POS. Does anyone know if I’m missing it for CCV?

 

[Dean]

Interesting I didn’t realize OKW had a maximum reallocation chart. That doesn’t exist in my CCV POS. Does anyone know if I’m missing it for CCV?

I think it's in the multi site POS now, it is in the 2 versions I have but they're still a few years old.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Guess I will read this more tomorrow. But still don’t get it. Aren’t totally points used to book to DVC staying the same at each resort. I understand totally points for specific rooms might have changed but hasn’t this been the long thing suggested at poly (bungalows less and studios more).

Point used to book the resort? No, it isn't the same because of the lockoffs that are usually booked as studios (and thus 1BR's). And studios and 1BRr's have both increased.

Technically for the reallocation those are looked at as 2BR's (which they don't often book as). In that manner they seems to have followed the requirements.

 

[RobDoc]

Interesting I didn’t realize OKW had a maximum reallocation chart. That doesn’t exist in my CCV POS. Does anyone know if I’m missing it for CCV?

I have not seen a POS from most of the DVC resorts over the past 10 years, but one of the provisions included is the ability of DVCMC to equalize the entire Use Year for DVC Resorts - meaning points required for every night or the year, for each villa type will be the same. Other option for DVCMC is to require minimum stay requirements (ie: 3 night or 4night minimum stay) or reduce the Home Resort Reservation Advantage to one (1) month instead of 7.

 

[crvetter]

I have not seen a POS from most of the DVC resorts over the past 10 years, but one of the provisions included is the ability of DVCMC to equalize the entire Use Year for DVC Resorts - meaning points required for every night or the year, for each villa type will be the same. Other option for DVCMC is to require minimum stay requirements (ie: 3 night or 4night minimum stay) or reduce the Home Resort Reservation Advantage to one (1) month instead of 7.

It appears you are suggesting if it costs 1,000 points to reserve a Studio every day of the year it must cost 1,000 points to reserve that Studio every day no matter how they adjust the points. Essentially they can not move points from one Vacation Home Type to another. This is what I read the POS to mean (actually found in Copper Creak what you showed for OKW). I am in discussion with DVC about this I was told that they are trying to schedule a call with me and someone in "leadership" whatever that means. The way I look at the maximum reallocation is that the average points per night for a studio is 15, 1 bedroom 30, 2 bedroom 40, and grand villa 65 for OKW. They have similar language in POS for CCV with 18 for the studio which was increased to 19 for 2020. So I will see what they say, they asked for a couple days as a "response" would likely be coming shortly.

 

[crvetter]

If I read the sections correctly they say a maximum reallocation would result in leveling of seasons and days of the week. They also say that there is a certain points we can guarantee to get a studio, 1 bedroom, 2 bedroom, and grand villa at. Essentially this defines the maximum average nightly point cost for a Vacation Home Type. I looked at OKW it appears they are in compliance. I'm checking other resorts now to see the compliance with respect to their average daily point cost per Vacation Home Type.

 

[RobDoc]

It appears you are suggesting if it costs 1,000 points to reserve a Studio every day of the year it must cost 1,000 points to reserve that Studio every day no matter how they adjust the points. Essentially they can not move points from one Vacation Home Type to another. This is what I read the POS to mean (actually found in Copper Creak what you showed for OKW). I am in discussion with DVC about this I was told that they are trying to schedule a call with me and someone in "leadership" whatever that means. The way I look at the maximum reallocation is that the average points per night for a studio is 15, 1 bedroom 30, 2 bedroom 40, and grand villa 65 for OKW. They have similar language in POS for CCV with 18 for the studio which was increased to 19 for 2020. So I will see what they say, they asked for a couple days as a "response" would likely be coming shortly.

I am not suggesting anything. If you review the Maximum Reallocation information posted above, the entire year would be equal for each villa type whether it is September or the last week in December. I did NOT create the information so there is no reason to shoot the messenger.

The chart represents the maximum point cost for each villa type without regard to the date. If that scenario were to play out, that is the MAXIMUM point cost for each of the villa types. Nowhere was there a suggestion that a Studio would 'cost' 1,000 points for a single night's reservation.

The information I posted above shows that, under Maximum Reallocation, a Studio would be 15 points per night. A 1BR would be 32 points per night. A 2BR would be 46 points per night and a GV would be 76 points per night. This is for each night of the year - weekdays, weekends, and Holidays would all be the same cost.

 

[skier_pete]

I have not read this full thread as I’m confused. Disney is changing the points in 2020 and I imagine must follow in lines with the terms/conditions when we bought then what’s the problem?

You can say they are pushing to make us upgrade rooms, bigger vacations, or buy more points but that is there right.

A lawsuit seems what is wrong with America. Just like the person who gets burnt by coffee and dues saying it was served too hot.

They raised the costs of both studios and 1 bedrooms to create more "lock off premiums" which essentially means that it costs all of us more to stay in studios and 1-bedrooms and Disney pockets the extra rooms in the system that this creates. Their basically stealing points from us all making it more expensive for us to stay. If that doesn't bother you, then that's your choice. It bothers the hell out of me.

 

[crvetter]

I am not suggesting anything. If you review the Maximum Reallocation information posted above, the entire year would be equal for each villa type whether it is September or the last week in December. I did NOT create the information so there is no reason to shoot the messenger.

The chart represents the maximum point cost for each villa type without regard to the date. If that scenario were to play out, that is the MAXIMUM point cost for each of the villa types. Nowhere was there a suggestion that a Studio would 'cost' 1,000 points for a single night's reservation.

The information I posted above shows that, under Maximum Reallocation, a Studio would be 15 points per night. A 1BR would be 32 points per night. A 2BR would be 46 points per night and a GV would be 76 points per night. This is for each night of the year - weekdays, weekends, and Holidays would all be the same cost.

Essentially the maximum reallocation suggests the maximum average nightly point cost effectively. It states that if each weekday, weekend, holiday across all seasons is held to the same level it must be 15 points for a studio for example. This effectively is stating the maximum allowable average nightly point cost. So far I've checked BWV, BCV, OKW, PVB, CCV, BRV and it appears for 2018 and 2019 this is held true. The average night point cost was at or below that declared in each Resort's POS; studios and 1 bedrooms appear to have been below the maximum allowable average nightly point cost. In 2020 it appears they bumped up the average nightly point cost for the studios and 1 bedrooms to be closer to the maximum average nightly point cost. I think perhaps they went to the maximum but went slightly above it in some cases. I think its an issue were they wanted to toe the maximum average as close as possible.

So looking at this it appears that the number of points must remain constant in the Resort (lock-offs are considered 2 bedrooms for this), the average nightly point for a Vacation Home Type must be below that declared in the POS, and they are held to the 20% movements (exclusive of holidays or special events). I believe it appears they made a good effort to be consistent with this; however, in some cases the charts just went above by 1 point for the average nightly points required. My guess is its difficult to actually maintain in that realm. My main question to Disney is "Do the average nightly points need to remain below the maximum declared in the POS?" If yes then I'm okay because that is the assumption I was told during my sales pitch and what I operated off of when deciding to purchase.

 

[Dean]

They raised the costs of both studios and 1 bedrooms to create more "lock off premiums" which essentially means that it costs all of us more to stay in studios and 1-bedrooms and Disney pockets the extra rooms in the system that this creates. Their basically stealing points from us all making it more expensive for us to stay. If that doesn't bother you, then that's your choice. It bothers the hell out of me.

The first part I agree with, the later is just conjecture.

 

[zavandor]

Correct - we signed up for it. It’s the same thing with dues you have no say because one Disney entity approves what another Disney entity proposes. Corporate governance maybe an issue but we should be aware of this when we buy into +40yr contracts - they don’t force us to buy in. Disney is a business they don’t have to represent our best interest. I am questioning why should we sue them as it’s common knowledge when you buy in (i.e. a frivolous lawsuit).

Disney and Facebook for that matter have lawyers and they pay them a ton to read through the fine print. I am sure what they are doing is legally (perhaps not morally) justifiable.

We have precedents.
DVC has been condemned for misleading early buyers at Aulani for declaring low dues to boost sales. They are paying millions for subsidized contracts.
This demonstrates two things:
- thinking that if Disney does something it must certainly be legal is wrong
- thinking that if Disney does something illegal they will get away with it because they have so many lawyers is wrong too

 

[zavandor]

Too much trouble to retype the entire thing, it's quite a long section of several paragraphs.

Can you attach the file to this thread like @WebmasterDoc did? Or maybe he can suggest an external hosting that would work.
Thanks

The first part I agree with, the later is just conjecture.

What is conjecture?
If it's Disney gaining from the reallocation, I would say it's pretty certain.
If it's them stealing points, then maybe they are not stealing in the sense it's illegal (that's what we are debating and I think it is indeed illegal), but they are certainly "making it more expensive for us to stay".


In other news, I've received a call yesterday from a CM, but I couldn't dedicate the time to it, so I've now an appointment for next week.

 

[bobbiwoz]

Yep. I don’t even know what to say about the level of ridiculous and idiocy that is the SSR 2020 chart. Class of its own.

Agreed