Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

[PatMcDuck]

I am of the DVC owners who is not really bothered by all this. I believe in reallocation in general. I understand the question about no change in total points by year, just a moving the points around by season. And this was apparently not just that, which is curious to me.

But I never bought just enough points to stay a certain number of days in a particular sized room. So it is more fluid to me, I stay at all different sized room at all different times. I do not notice these changes, not really.

But I will be interested to hear the explanation for how and why this happened this year.

 

[RRB]

This is a complex issue. Isn't there a DVC Member who is a real estate/timeshare attorney who could shed light on this subject?

 

[RobDoc]

I am of the DVC owners who is not really bothered by all this. I believe in reallocation in general. I understand the question about no change in total points by year, just a moving the points around by season. And this was apparently not just that, which is curious to me.

But I never bought just enough points to stay a certain number of days in a particular sized room. So it is more fluid to me, I stay at all different sized room at all different times. I do not notice these changes, not really.

But I will be interested to hear the explanation for how and why this happened this year.

The explanation will be something like - "The demand for Studios and 1BR villas has changed to the point where modifications are justified to even out demand throughout the DVC seasons."

Lets look at the 2020 reallocation for OKW and HH.

In 2020, HH will see NO CHANGE AT ALL from the 2018 and 2019 point charts.

OKW will see some variation for Studios, 1BR, 2BR villas, and GVs. For 1BR villas - there is an increase of 2 pts for weekday nights in Adventure and Choice seasons - but no change for Dream, Magic or Premier seasons. Studios have increased for Choice/Dream/Magic and Premier and Weekends during Adventure Season. 2BRs will see a 2020 decrease in weekday Dream and Premier seasons, but an increase in weekday Magic and weekend Adventure, choice, Magic and Premier seasons and a decrease in weekend Dream season points.

Certainly nothing was an across the board increase or decrease.

2019 OKW Point chart                                                                    2020 OKW Point Chart

             Adventure      Choice      Dream      Magic      Premier                  Adventure         Choice       Dream      Magic      Premier
Studio
 S-Th          10             10        13         14          20                         10                11          14         15          22
 Fr/Sa         13             14        17         19          24                         14                15          18         19          28

1BR
 S-Th          21             24        27         30          40                         23                25          27         30          40
 Fr/Sa         26             27        32         36          50                         28                29          32         36          50

2BR
 S-Th          29             32        37         40          54                         29                32          34         41          51
 Fr/Sa         36             36        42         48          64                         37                40          41         49          62

GV
 S-Th          47             48        58          62         81                         47                50          58         63          81
 Fr/Sa         57             59        69          81         81                         61                65          73         85          109

OKW points from 1991 through 1995

OKW points from 1991 through 1995                                                   1996 Reallocation
                      Adventure    Choice   Dream   Magic    Premier            Adventure   Choice   Dream    Magic   Premier
Studio
   S-Th                  7           8        10      11        15                   8         8       10       11      15
   Fr/Sa                 17          21       25      28        38                   20        21      24       28      36
1BR
   S-Th                  14          17       20      23        31                   16        18      20       23      31
   Fr/Sa                 35          42       50      57        77                   40        41      48       57      77
2BR
   S-Th                  19          23       27      31        42                   22        24      27       31      42
   Fr/Sa                 47          57       67      77        105                  54        56      64       77      105
GV
   S-Th                  31          37       45      52        68                   36        38      45       52      66
   Fr/Sa                 77          92       112     130       107                  88        91      107      123     162

 

[wdrl]

That's quite clear and similar to the SSR one.. At some point at the beginning of that paragraph they've added also thhe text saying points can only be moved within a Vacation Home. However, given the different composition of units the effect may be the same as it could be impossible to guarantee all units keep the same amount of points if they're shifted between room sizes.

If you reread the language in the POS, please note that there is NO requirement that points "can only be moved within a Vacation Home." I have copied the quoted text from Post #1 of this thread:

“In order to meet the Club Members’ needs and expectations as evidenced by fluctuations in Use Day demand at the Condominium experienced by DVCMC during a given calendar year, DVCMC may, in its sole discretion, increase or decrease the Home resort Vacation Point requirements of a given Use Day within a given Vacation Home during the given calendar year by any amount not to exceed twenty percent (20%) of the Home Resort Vacation Points required to reserve a Use Day during the previous calendar year;

The above language allows DVCMC to increase or decrease the point requirements of a given Vacation Home by no more than 20% in a year. There is absolutely nothing that states that any resultant increase or decrease in points must stay within a specific Vacation Home accommodate type, such as within the studios. In fact, there is no language that states where any increase or decrease must be placed. Absent such language, DVCMC is free to shift the increase or decrease to any other accommodation type. Therefore, DVCMC has the authority to reallocate points from the PVB Bungalows to PVB studios, from SSR's two-bedrooms to its Treehouse Villas, or from any resort's two-bedrooms to the studios and/or one-bedrooms.

Note that the first part of the quoted POS makes no mention of Unit. DVCMC's ability to reallocate points for any given Use Day is not encumbered by Unit. Keep in mind that "Unit" is not the same as "Vacation Home."

The only limitation imposed on DVCMC regarding "Unit" is stated in the second part of the POS that is in Post #1 of this thread:

"provided, however, that the total number of Home Resort Vacation points existing within a given Unit at any time may not be increased or decreased because of such reallocation."

To date, none of the reallocations since 1996 have resulted in any changes to the number of Vacation Points within a given Unit. Every Unit's total points has remained unchanged since the day they were declared (well, there is an exception with Aulani Unit 01A, but that had nothing to do with reallocations). Even after the 2020 reallocation none of the Units will have changes in the number of points allotted.

 

[CarolynFH]

If you reread the language in the POS, please note that there is NO requirement that points "can only be moved within a Vacation Home." I have copied the quoted text from Post #1 of this thread:

“In order to meet the Club Members’ needs and expectations as evidenced by fluctuations in Use Day demand at the Condominium experienced by DVCMC during a given calendar year, DVCMC may, in its sole discretion, increase or decrease the Home resort Vacation Point requirements of a given Use Day within a given Vacation Home during the given calendar year by any amount not to exceed twenty percent (20%) of the Home Resort Vacation Points required to reserve a Use Day during the previous calendar year;

The above language allows DVCMC to increase or decrease the point requirements of a given Vacation Home by no more than 20% in a year. There is absolutely nothing that states that any resultant increase or decrease in points must stay within a specific Vacation Home accommodate type, such as within the studios. In fact, there is no language that states where any increase or decrease must be placed. Absent such language, DVCMC is free to shift the increase or decrease to any other accommodation type. Therefore, DVCMC has the authority to reallocate points from the PVB Bungalows to PVB studios, from SSR's two-bedrooms to its Treehouse Villas, or from any resort's two-bedrooms to the studios and/or one-bedrooms.

Note that the first part of the quoted POS makes no mention of Unit. DVCMC's ability to reallocate points for any given Use Day is not encumbered by Unit. Keep in mind that "Unit" is not the same as "Vacation Home."

The only limitation imposed on DVCMC regarding "Unit" is stated in the second part of the POS that is in Post #1 of this thread:

"provided, however, that the total number of Home Resort Vacation points existing within a given Unit at any time may not be increased or decreased because of such reallocation."

To date, none of the reallocations since 1996 have resulted in any changes to the number of Vacation Points within a given Unit. Every Unit's total points has remained unchanged since the day they were declared (well, there is an exception with Aulani Unit 01A, but that had nothing to do with reallocations). Even after the 2020 reallocation none of the Units will have changes in the number of points allotted.

Trying to understand the distinction you're making above.

Is it that while the points required to reserve and stay in a given Vacation Home can change (and have), the points owned by all of us who own x% of each Unit cannot change (and have not)?

 

[RobDoc]

Trying to understand the distinction you're making above.

Is it that while the points required to reserve and stay in a given Vacation Home can change (and have), the points owned by all of us who own x% of each Unit cannot change (and have not)?

That is my understanding. The TOTAL points owned at any DVC Resort cannot change (and have not changed) due to a reallocation. I find the suggestion that DVC has somehow changed that total in their favor suspect at the least.

Basically, DVC Members own about 96% of the total points at each resort - DVC has had a goal of selling 96% at each resort but, at time doe to foreclosure, ROFR, etc. may own more than the 4% goal. The % owned by DVC is typically used when accommodations are taken out of service for renovation, repair, maintenance, etc.

Over the years, some have accused DVC of using more than their share of ownership for rental - and that is also part of the declared program. Points used by Members for non-resort reservations (DCL, Adventures by Disney, World Showcase Collection, etc.) are rented through Disney Reservations to recap the cost for the non-DVC options. In addition, any villas not reserved 60 days from today are available to Disney Reservations for public reservations. That income is applied to reduce our annual fees (there is a formula used for that and it is NOT a dollar-for-dollar member benefit, but is better than letting villas go unused. Consider that villas at VB and HH do go unused during the slow seasonal times for those resorts and cash reservations are available to the general public and also to DVC Members at a discount. I'm sure that there are still a lot of those villas that remain empty, but that is another discussion.

With the past three reallocations and now this reallocation, those affected have typically been those wanting to primarily reserve Studio villas. Many early buyers purchased a specific number of points (once the minimums were reduced) with the main interest in reserving Studios. When those points were changed we saw complaints of mismanagement by DVC. In some cases, it was because weekends point costs were reduced and weekdays raised thus affecting those reserving only Sun-Thurs.

This reallocation affects those wanting Studios, 1BRs, 2BRs and GVs to some extent. As always, some members will benefit and some will have more point costs - but that is how the system has always worked and continues at this time.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

To date, none of the reallocations since 1996 have resulted in any changes to the number of Vacation Points within a given Unit. Every Unit's total points has remained unchanged since the day they were declared (well, there is an exception with Aulani Unit 01A, but that had nothing to do with reallocations). Even after the 2020 reallocation none of the Units will have changes in the number of points allotted.

Since units are not all the same size and are varied in composition I'm a little lost on how this could be correct?

 

[wdrl]

Trying to understand the distinction you're making above.

Is it that while the points required to reserve and stay in a given Vacation Home can change (and have), the points owned by all of us who own x% of each Unit cannot change (and have not)?

Yes, that is what I am saying.

 

[wdrl]

Since units are not all the same size and are varied in composition I'm a little lost on how this could be correct?

DVC points are a numerical representation of the fractional real estate interest of the Vacation Home(s) comprising the Residential Unit. Although Units can have different sizes and configurations, their sizes and/or configurations do not change because of a reallocation. Thus, the number of points allotted a Unit will not change.

To put it another way, if a Residential Unit's real estate interest makes up 5% of a resort that has 1,000,000 total points, then the Unit will always contain 50,000 points. DVCMC may reallocated points on the resort's point chart, or it may reclassify the View categories of the Vacation Homes comprising the Unit. However, the Unit will always contain 50,000 points because it will always contain 5% of the resort's total real estate interest.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Yes, that is what I am saying.

Ok, but isn't this section of the POS about use, not about sales? It wouldn't seem reasonable to expect to find a reference to increasing the declared points for sale in a unit in the POS which is what would lead me to interpret it about use and points represented by the sale of the real estate interest.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

DVC points are a numerical representation of the fractional real estate interest of the Vacation Home(s) comprising the Residential Unit. Although Units can have different sizes and configurations, their sizes and/or configurations do not change because of a reallocation. Thus, the number of points allotted a Unit will not change.

To put it another way, if a Residential Unit's real estate interest makes up 5% of a resort that has 1,000,000 total points, then the Unit will always contain 50,000 points. DVCMC may reallocated points on the resort's point chart, or it may reclassify the View categories of the Vacation Homes comprising the Unit. However, the Unit will always contain 50,000 points because it will always contain 5% of the resort's total real estate interest.

Just a little clarification. It would seem that each unit is declared with a particular number of associated points represented. So you are deeded a percentage of a unit and the unit has it's own distinct amount of points that it represnets. It's not a percentage of the entire resort or they would have a very difficult time ever changing the size of the resort like they did with OKW when they added 62-64 or THV.

I understand what you are saying about BLT with the standard view and TPV being allocated the same number of points yet at BWV they did have a distinction based on view as I understand it.

 

[wdrl]

Ok, but isn't the POS about use, not about sales? It wouldn't seem reasonable to expect to find a reference to increasing the declared points for sale in a unit in the POS which is what would lead me to interpret it about use and points represented by the sale of the real estate interest.

I'm not sure I follow you. Can you expand on your question?

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I'm not sure I follow you. Can you expand on your question?

If I understand what you're saying correctly, and maybe I'm not, is that as long as they don't expand on the declared points in a unit all is ok - ie, they aren't allowed to suddenly decide to sell more points and change what the unit represents? If so, then something like that is not what I'd expect to be the reference for a unit remaining the same in the section about reallocation of points for a vacation home when the section is talking about reallocation because of demand on a use day. ie, adding more associated points and changing the percentage represented by that unit could not possible reference demand because it's not adding actual real estate.

I don't know if that makes it more clear what I'm referencing when I say "sales vs use"?

Or, it seems that you interpret a change to the unit as changing the % it represents and increasing/decreasing the points represented by that %? If so, I don't believe that's the only way to interpret a unit remaining the same.

 

[RobDoc]

Just a little clarification. It would seem that each unit is declared with a particular number of associated points represented. So you are deeded a percentage of a unit and the unit has it's own distinct amount of points that it represnets. It's not a percentage of the entire resort or they would have a very difficult time ever changing the size of the resort like they did with OKW when they added 62-64 or THV.

I understand what you are saying about BLT with the standard view and TPV being allocated the same number of points yet at BWV they did have a distinction based on view as I understand it.

In the past, wdrl has explained that the points we each own is a representation of the sq. footage of the unit at the resort.

Here is Exhibit "A" from the May, 1993 POS which explains how the number of points is determined for a resort.

 

[wdrl]

Just a little clarification. It would seem that each unit is declared with a particular number of associated points represented. So you are deeded a percentage of a unit and the unit has it's own distinct amount of points that it represnets. It's not a percentage of the entire resort or they would have a very difficult time ever changing the size of the resort like they did with OKW when they added 62-64 or THV.

I understand what you are saying about BLT with the standard view and TPV being allocated the same number of points yet at BWV they did have a distinction based on view as I understand it.

Don't get hung up on my earlier example.

You are correct that a deed shows the percentage of the real estate interest in the Unit, not of the entire resort. Nevertheless, the Unit itself will remain constant in its size relative to the total resort assuming the resort does not enlarge or contract in overall size.

At OKW, the points allotted to Units 11 to 56 have never changed, even after OKW added Buildings 62, 63, and 64. Those three buildings added about 494,170 points to the OKW condo association. But the number of points allotted to, say, Unit 15 has always been about 130,300 points. A member who bought 230 points in Unit 15 in January 1992 still owns a 00.1765% real estate interest in Unit 15.

As for BWV: The number of points allotted to the BWV Standard View Units are the same as to the Preferred & Boardwalk View Units. Years ago (back during the 2010 reallocation discussion) I searched through all 123 BWV Units and found that Units of comparable configurations were allotted the same number of points regardless of location or view category.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

In the past, wdrl has explained that the points we each own is a representation of the sq. footage of the unit at the resort.

Here is Exhibit "A" from the May, 1993 POS which explains how the number of points is determined for a resort.

For me, those documents back up my interpretation of changes allowed, or not allowed, to a unit. I'm interpreting that Units are comprised of Vacation Homes. For some resorts the Units may have been identical in their composition (not certain on that) but they were varied at some resorts. As referenced the real estate percentages that are sold are percentages of the units that are represented by a certain number of vacation points which for each unit was determined by assigning a fixed number of points to specific Vacation Homes which are within those units. The units in total represent the resort.

In order for the units to remain unchanged then the points allotted to each Vacation Home that was the basis of that unit also needs to remain unchanged - unless every single Unit of the resort had the same underlying basis of Vacation Homes.

I'm also not a real estate lawyer though.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

As for BWV: The number of points allotted to the BWV Standard View Units are the same as to the Preferred & Boardwalk View Units. Years ago (back during the 2010 reallocation discussion) I searched through all 123 BWV Units and found that Units of comparable configurations were allotted the same number of points regardless of location or view category.

Then my memory is incorrect as I thought it had been looked up and found that they had been declared at a lower amount.

 

[planningalways]

Nope. You do realize that a lawsuit would cost members a great deal of money to fight. I’m not prepared financially to do this. Where do you think lawyers fees would be taken from? Sorry that you are short some points .... welcome to my world. If you think that in house counsel will take care of this you are sadly mistaken. They will farm this out to outside counsel and it will cost more than you can imagine...and will, in turn, cost me more. Pay your own attorney to meet with DVC if you are so upset. And if he or she finds shenanigans then demand dvc pays your legal fees. I believe the majority of dvc members are more outraged about the increased dues....how about finding out what led to this insane increase....

 

[SL6827]

I got a question here. Of course raising the points for the one bedrooms was beyond ridiculous, but was raising the points for the studios more justified? I mean hasn't the demand for them grown some what, especially with people like me who bought in with a small contract and will stay for a shorter amount of time?

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I got a question here. Of course raising the points for the one bedrooms was beyond ridiculous, but was raising the points for the studios more justified? I mean hasn't the demand for them grown some what, especially with people like me who bought in with a small contract and will stay for a shorter amount of time?

Honestly, if they had done that I probably wouldn't have looked at the charts beyond noting that shift.