Would Walts Disney release a film like this???

I never said they Disney should have put limits on Q.T. He has ever right to make whatever movie he wanted to - even Kill Bill.

But Disney has a right - and an obligation - to decide what movies they want to make and distribute.

It comes down to a simple point - does "Disney" mean anything, or is it simply a brand sticker that gets slapped on product. Does the company itself have a guiding principle about how it makes money, or just "greed is good"? What does it say about the products being released when you have to hide behind phony names? It's already been shown that pandering is not as profitable as producing good products so the entire "we have to do it" line of thought is completely wrong (it's only easier to make a bad movie, not more lucrative)

There is an important question here. It goes back to one of the posts I read while I was trying to catch up. Basically I remember it as saying that the poster knew the cheap direct-to-DVD films were bad, but his daughter was too young ot know the difference and it's a good thing because now she spends all her allowance on princess stuff.

Is that what all this comes down to - brainless consumerism?

Sadly, I see a lot of evidence for it. I mean that's what the "anything for money" argument is basically saying. It doesn't matter what wares Disney hocks. Disney is nothing but a luxury brand and a purchased statues symbol. Or to Mr. Crusader's point - buying a label is easier than earning recognition. That's the core of brand loyalty: esteem without effort.

Disney was best when it made things. But making things are hard. It's much easier to buy products from others, to divorce oneself from responsibility and effort, and to try steal some of the fame for yourself.

Easy, cheap, pointless and shallow.

I show Disney movies to my son because they represent excellent story telling that has a purpose and a point. I do not want my child to toss coins mindlessly into a corporate collection plate. I want them to do more that sit and stare at a screen while their mind empties. I want him to have a good and happy life, not simply be a wallet to be sucked dry.

So I guess this ends with the statement that I wrote originally. The world is too vast and the life is too short to wallow in the mediocre.
 
The prevading idea seems to be that Bad Santa and Kill Bill are bad movies made just for a quick buck. I for one don't hold with this idea. Also, why can't disney be involved in movies just for adults, they definitely make rides that children can't enjoy? Just because something is against your personal morals does not mean it is outside of the morals of society as a whole (like porn is now). And someday if porn is accepted art form, I would expect Disney will form an arm and put some out. But as for today, the "slippery slope" ends way to the right of porn. Disney is suffering from its own success at branding itself as a "family"company. If you can just adjust the view to the Disney brand is kid oriented, and the other companies can produce entertainment solely for adults you can relax a little.
 
Also, why can't disney be involved in movies just for adults, they definitely make rides that children can't enjoy?
Rediculous suppositions regarding porn aside......................yes, Disney doesn't just have to cater to the pre-tween set. I suppose there is a place for things like Bad Santa. If I were Eisner would I sit by and let it happen under my company, on my watch? Probably not.....................but that is neither here nor there and Miramax is it's own label. I do think Ei$ner's words on the film are just lip service to try and create the perception of some distance between Disney and this Miramax offering.

So while any company, including Disney, has a right and responsibility to make entertainment for the masses (not that I would choose the same vehicles, but yes I'd produce things that appealed to more than just kids)....................I don't think it is appropriate to advertise such entertainment at family movies or during family hour on the tube. I think putting a parent in a position to have to explain the actions of the BS santa to a child is unforgiveable.....................even if that BS is redeemed by the spirit of Christmas at the end of the movie (for those who waste the scratch to get to that point). When I saw the commercial for this film I was apalled.
 
Originally posted by Another Voice
It's already been shown that pandering is not as profitable as producing good products so the entire "we have to do it" line of thought is completely wrong (it's only easier to make a bad movie, not more lucrative)
Is "Kill Bill" necessarily "pandering" and not a "good product"?
 
Is "Kill Bill" necessarily "pandering" and not a "good product"?
I have no idea if Kill Bill is a quality movie in any way. I do somewhat respect AV's opinion on film due to his vast experience in the field. However, I didn't realize he was the sole authority on what represents good entertainement, good products, good hotels, good experiences......................................oh, wait, that is the other thread :crazy: ;).
 
***"I think putting a parent in a position to have to explain the actions of the BS santa to a child is unforgiveable.....................even if that BS is redeemed by the spirit of Christmas at the end of the movie (for those who waste the scratch to get to that point). When I saw the commercial for this film I was apalled."***

Exactly. You can make a movie with the same message without resorting to the foul language and sex, Miramax simply chose not to. That doesn't mean Miramax shouldn't or couldn't make films with sex,violence,sex,foul language and sex, by why throw Santa and children into the mix.

We can only surmise what Eisner's true intent is when he makes statements like "is nothing sacred". Personally, I hope he's sincere when he says that and until I'm proven wrong, will accept his statement at face value.
 
Originally posted by KNWVIKING
***"I think putting a parent in a position to have to explain the actions of the BS santa to a child is unforgiveable.....................even if that BS is redeemed by the spirit of Christmas at the end of the movie (for those who waste the scratch to get to that point). When I saw the commercial for this film I was apalled."***

Exactly. You can make a movie with the same message without resorting to the foul language and sex, Miramax simply chose not to. That doesn't mean Miramax shouldn't or couldn't make films with sex,violence,sex,foul language and sex, by why throw Santa and children into the mix.
Why not? It's an R-rated movie. If the stories are true that they ran the previews for this in front of Brother Bear, that makes no sense, but nevertheless, how is a parent going to have to "explain the actions of the BS santa to a child" unless the child sees an R-rated movie. The preview looks obnoxious enough, but really no more so than many other ads on TV all of the time.
 
Originally posted by DancingBear
Why not? It's an R-rated movie. If the stories are true that they ran the previews for this in front of Brother Bear, that makes no sense, but nevertheless, how is a parent going to have to "explain the actions of the BS santa to a child" unless the child sees an R-rated movie. The preview looks obnoxious enough, but really no more so than many other ads on TV all of the time.
I agree. It is an R-rated movie. No problem with sex and foul language in an R-rated film. However, you dismiss the fact that they may have advertised it at a G-rated film way too quickly. The portrayal of the BS santa in the trailer and tv commericials (that are on prior to most kiddies bed times) are enough to lead innocent, santa-believing kids to ask questions................so that is how a parent might have to deal with this portrayal of St. Nick even if their kids don't see the movie.
 
Two interesting tidbits just came through on the Studio Breifing (http://studiobrf.newshare.com/):

FINDING NEMO SETS NEW RECORDS
After just two weeks at retailers, the home video version of Finding Nemo has already taken in between $360 million and $400 million, far more than the $340 million that the theatrical version earned during its entire domestic run, the Los Angeles Times reported today (Tuesday). The Disney/Pixar feature has also set a two-week record for DVD sales of 15 million copies sold, exceeding the previous record of 14.5 million set by The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring. The second Rings movie, The Two Towers, is set to go on sale in video outlets today.


WAS DISNEY "SHOCKED" BY BAD SANTA MOVIE?
A report that originally appeared on the Ain't It Cool News website claiming that Disney execs were "totally horrified" when they screened the upcoming Miramax film Bad Santa has been picked up by a number of British newspapers. "[Billy Bob] Thornton Film Shocks Disney," headlined one report. Another said that it "shows Father Christmas drinking, stealing and chasing girls." A third reported: "Gobsmacked executives rubbed their eyes at scenes of the filthy Father Christmas bonking while kiddies are left queuing outside his grotto." Most of the reports carried a quote from an unnamed source close to Disney chairman Michael Eisner that was cited in the AICN article: "Nothing appears sacred anymore. This is just not in the spirit of Walt Disney." However, a Disney spokesperson told today's (Tuesday) New York Daily News: ""No one [at Disney] has expressed any complaints to us. Over time there have been great stories about bad Santas who have redeemed themselves. This is one of them. The humor in the film speaks for itself."


A) Once again, the "traditional" Disney type of film has proven profitable. It's hard to see where Bad Santa can rack up these kind of numbers. Given Disney's limited resources, wouldn't it make sense to concentrate where they would get the largest return? What is the economic rationale for Bad Santa.

B) The fig leaf that "it's not really Disney" wasn't going to last forever. The idea that you can wrap a film in a brown paper bag and sell in on the street corner to avoid harming your brand is a thing of the past.

The question isn't why Disney can't make the The Hot Chick type movies - the question is why should Disney make them.

This is not to say that Disney should only make movies about fuzzy animals. There is most defintely a place for "R" and even "A" rated films depending on the subject matter. But why divert and waste the resources to show a drunk jerk making the sign of the double backed elf in Santa's workshop when those resources could have been used to making something lasting and profitable?
 
Well Kill Bill has already doubled its budget. So its profitable, but as for "lasting" will have to wait and see. (But the other QT movies have stuck around quite well.) I'll go out on a limb and predict that Bad Santa will also turn a nice profit. The word of mouth is already good in the circles where people will accept it.

And its not like every disney movie is the lightning in a bottle that Finding Nemo is, look at Dinosaur (-$20M), Atlantis (-$40M) , and Treasure planet (-$140M). All with $100M+ price tags and all didn't make it back, Nemo will finance the next 3 losers like this.
 
***"A) Once again, the "traditional" Disney type of film has proven profitable. It's hard to see where Bad Santa can rack up these kind of numbers. "***

AV, we tend to disagree on a lot of topics but I do agree on some of your points in this thread. What will be unfortunate is if BS turns out to be a smashing success. It will only embolden Miramax and possibly even Disney to push the envelope a little further in the realm of bad taste.
 
Great post AV!!!!!! The studio briefing excerpted is so true.
And even if Kill Bill is a oscar winner(wont happen) or if Bad Santa would win one(hardly) they arent movies that a company that portrays themselves as a family friendly company should be making!!!!
Disney has been involved in movies not just for kids ie-POTC today and movies like Armageddon in the past that were financially successful.
The company can be very successful without making movies that are overly violent just for the sake of being violent like Kill Bill. or overly vulgar like Bad Santa. I guess they just coudlnt do Santa Claus 3 so Bad Santa will have to do.
Why ruin a companys past history/legacy just for the pursuit of a quick buck???
Now that Mickey is celebrating his 75th anniv. should we have him now in more adult type theme's(maybe a cameo in Kill Bill2 or Bad Santa???) if it could make money as apparently some here are far more concerned about then that would be just fine, right??
 
Have you watched the trailer for Bad Santa?

Go to http://www.apple.com/trailers/miramax/bad_santa/

And have you read the synopsis at Yahoo's Upcoming Movies site?

Go to http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&id=1808403039&cf=info

<blockquote>Crime/Gangster and Comedy
1 hr. 33 min.
This is the story of two criminals who disguise themselves as Santa Claus (Thornton) and his elf, traveling across the country to major malls, using the good will people have towards Santa to rob the stores blind. The plan is going great until the two baddies meet an introverted 8-year-old boy who reminds them of the true meaning of Christmas.

Release Date: November 26th, 2003 (wide).

MPAA Rating: R for pervasive language, strong sexual content and some violence.

Distributor: Dimension Films </blockquote>

Some folks seem to think this is a raunchy movie about Santa Claus. Nope. It's a raunchy movie about a crook in a Santa suit. There is a difference.

Neither the trailer nor the synopsis make me want to see this movie. But I think some people on this board are getting more upset than necessary.
 
If it was just this one film I would agree with your point Mr. Weiss. In fact, I like the director's other film, Ghost World.

It's just that this one seems to slide in with a long line of Disney "anything for money" flicks - Hot Chick, Bubble Boy, etc. - that are made with out real thought, effort, talent and end up not making much money anyway.

We're being told how much Disney has to cut back. That shortened hours and such are vital for the company. Everyone nods in agreement when told that 'Soaring over Califorina' can't have a new film at Epcot because of the expense.

Well, if Disney had taken the $20 million (a guess) it took to buy Bad Santa my guess you could do a hell of a lot of soaring for that kind of coin.

It's a question of priorities. Where is the company going to invest its "limited" resources?

And are we fans obligated to simply go along with whatever the company chooses to do - or are we more interested in the products themselves instead of the brand sticker.
 
It's a question of priorities. Where is the company going to invest its "limited" resources?

Absolutely.

Particularly given the fact that this company commingles its' resources from all segments in order to finance the entire operation of the business.

If that weren't the case, we would be able to concentrate this discussion on the production division.

Throw this latest flick into the same trashbin as the Buffalo Soldiers. I do believe it is right up there with the other assembly line crap pumped out of Hollywood these days "now showing in a theatre near you."

Kill Bill however cannot be placed in this category.
 
Originally posted by crusader
Throw this latest flick into the same trashbin as the Buffalo Soldiers. I do believe it is right up there with the other assembly line crap pumped out of Hollywood these days "now showing in a theatre near you."

Kill Bill however cannot be placed in this category.
At what point in the process do you know that Kill Bill is not "assembly-line crap" but "Bad Santa," with its own funky sensibility director and somewhat off-kilter star, is not?

At what point do you know that "Hot Chick" will not be as wildly profitable as "Big Daddy"? And is Big Daddy any more "assembly line crap" for its day as "Son of Flubber" was in 1963?
 
DancingBear -

You're on to something. For Bad Santa, I am making an assumption based on the disclosures. It reeks of assembly line trash because it erodes in content. Even if the storyline defends the action, the content goes too far. The only reason I can see for Billybob to provide an audiovisual demonstration of his manhood vs simply playing a perverse character is because somebody somewhere decided the movie needed it to sell. That's garbage.

I draw the line at the curb based on the content of the movie - including script, acting, scenes and story.

Kill Bill is meant to deliver a grotesque nasty visual of body parts because it is of the horror/gore genre. Add to it the fantastic acting, and it automatically gets moved it into a different category. It is definately one for the fans.
 
I just saw Bad Santa and it was a very funny movie.
The movie was profane and had a person acting very bad in a Santa outfit. And while it was funny and will make money, after seeing it there is no doubt that no company owned by a company known for family films like Disney should have been involved in a film like this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 








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