Worried about the future....

[KiminChicago]

I feel sorry for school administrators and anyone who tries to run an athletic program for youths. On the one hand they have the super competitive parents who insist that there must be winners or losers and there must be class rankings. On the other hand they have the parents who are complaining that their little snowflakes' feelings were hurt because they were on the losing team or weren't tops in their class.

Either way, everyone seems to think that it is all about them and what they want -- that is what really worries me....

 

[onelilspark]

Morons, and people with common sense - respectively.

 

[FireDancer]

Winning and losing should be taught while playing on a team. In a gym class the hope is that the students learn about physical fitness and learn to enjoy doing something active. Too much competition can take away a kid's joy in doing some of these physical activities.

Gym for us growing up was a combination of team sports (where scores do matter) and fitness activities (where you compete against yourself).

No one is saying gym should be 100% team based but it shouldn't be 0% and teams keep score, at least they should.

 

[smkiya]

I feel sorry for school administrators and anyone who tries to run an athletic program for youths. On the one hand they have the super competitive parents who insist that there must be winners or losers and there must be class rankings. On the other hand they have the parents who are complaining that their little snowflakes' feelings were hurt because they were on the losing team or weren't tops in their class.

Either way, everyone seems to think that it is all about them and what they want -- that is what really worries me....

I think they call that entitlement. It's actually what I wanted to title the thread, but it encompasses so many things I see going wrong. I limited this thread to kids and school, but what about this whole "My Super Sweet Sixteen", "Bridezillas", etc. We haven't even scratched the surface! We are definitely in for it!

 

[allison443]

I think they call that entitlement. It's actually what I wanted to title the thread, but it encompasses so many things I see going wrong. I limited this thread to kids and school, but what about this whole "My Super Sweet Sixteen", "Bridezillas", etc. We haven't even scratched the surface! We are definitely in for it!

Ok but really, do you know anyone that had anything close to a "super sweet sixteen"? Is that really a problem for the majority of the population?

 

[kamik86]

I feel sorry for school administrators and anyone who tries to run an athletic program for youths. On the one hand they have the super competitive parents who insist that there must be winners or losers and there must be class rankings. On the other hand they have the parents who are complaining that their little snowflakes' feelings were hurt because they were on the losing team or weren't tops in their class.

Either way, everyone seems to think that it is all about them and what they want -- that is what really worries me....

I think what your getting at here is almost my point. SOME things is most areas of life should be about scores and some shouldn't. Kids shouldn't be ranked on everything they do the entire year but yeah the high acheivers should get that recognition at the end of the year. Gym shouldn't be all about team based games with scores but if your going to play basketball it should have scores... even more so when your talking communitee leagues. There should be activities where everyone can participate in performance based activities (like music class) but when it comes to the school play yeah the roles really should have auditions (or be like the show choir I did in elementary school, everyone can join and be in the choir but you have to audition for the bigger speaking and singing roles where you have solos.)

The reason I belive this is almost every child will find an area where they are one of the best and they will also find an area where they are one of the worst. Children need to learn that we ARE NOT all exactly the same, no matter how much more fair it might be.

 

[smkiya]

Ok but really, do you know anyone that had anything close to a "super sweet sixteen"? Is that really a problem for the majority of the population?

I know kids/parents who try to emulate what they see on that show, and others. Of course their parents can't afford to spend $100K on a party, but yes, they rent out a space have smoke machines, 3 tiered cakes, etc. each trying to outdo the other.

 

[smkiya]

I think what your getting at here is almost my point. SOME things is most areas of life should be about scores and some shouldn't. Kids shouldn't be ranked on everything they do the entire year but yeah the high acheivers should get that recognition at the end of the year. Gym shouldn't be all about team based games with scores but if your going to play basketball it should have scores... even more so when your talking communitee leagues. There should be activities where everyone can participate in performance based activities (like music class) but when it comes to the school play yeah the roles really should have auditions (or be like the show choir I did in elementary school, everyone can join and be in the choir but you have to audition for the bigger speaking and singing roles where you have solos.)

The reason I belive this is almost every child will find an area where they are one of the best and they will also find an area where they are one of the worst. Children need to learn that we ARE NOT all exactly the same, no matter how much more fair it might be.

Well said.

 

[allison443]

I think what your getting at here is almost my point. SOME things is most areas of life should be about scores and some shouldn't. Kids shouldn't be ranked on everything they do the entire year but yeah the high acheivers should get that recognition at the end of the year. Gym shouldn't be all about team based games with scores but if your going to play basketball it should have scores... even more so when your talking communitee leagues. There should be activities where everyone can participate in performance based activities (like music class) but when it comes to the school play yeah the roles really should have auditions (or be like the show choir I did in elementary school, everyone can join and be in the choir but you have to audition for the bigger speaking and singing roles where you have solos.)

The reason I belive this is almost every child will find an area where they are one of the best and they will also find an area where they are one of the worst. Children need to learn that we ARE NOT all exactly the same, no matter how much more fair it might be.

This is how things are where I live, and in my kids' school. High school is very competitive, for everything from grades to athletics. Some kids are applying to colleges with a 10% acceptance rate, and many others are applying to colleges with less than 50% acceptance rate. Kids play on high school teams that cut lots of kids, second place in high school is "first loser" and kids have outside tutors, SAT prep classes, private athletic training. There is a big academic awards ceremony. Tryouts for drama, music, etc. Of course there is economic disparity as well, who gets a brand new car at 17, who has ten pairs of Ugg boots, etc.

I really don't see the "everyone is equal" philosophy in high school at all. Do some of you see that in your local high school?

 

[Geoff_M]

Mike Rowe, of Dirty Jobs fame, has weighed in on this topic. Rowe published on the Internet a letter a father asked him to write to his son who was having trouble getting motivated to complete the rank of Eagle Scout (Rowe is an Eagle). Afterwards, a 2nd Scout wrote to him and said that he was offended by Rowe's implication that if you didn't earn your Eagle you would lead a "mediocre" life. Mike, in his response to the 2nd Scout included:

Let me step back a moment, (since my pizza is still not here!) and say again how very skeptical I am of this “Everybody-Gets-a-Trophy” mentality. Look around and you’ll see symptoms of this condition everywhere. My cousin got a trophy a few years ago that read “Thanks for Participating!” (His basketball team came in second to last.) You can see it in classes where the teachers grade on a “curve.” (Since when is a 75% a B+?)

The truth is, many adults today are more concerned with your self-esteem than with your performance. Too many parents and teachers and coaches want their kids to succeed so badly that they’ll drag them across the finish line if they have to. Frankly, I find it insulting to those kids who are willing to do their best. I think we send a really crappy message to millions of kids when we reward them equally, for accomplishments that are clearly unequal. I think we set them up for failure later in life.

Anyway, the letter that offended you was written because I don’t want to see that sort of mentality creep into Scouting. I don’t want the Eagle standards lowered just to encourage less enthusiastic kids to “go for it,” or satisfy a parents desire to see their precious little snowflakes bring home another “trophy.” And frankly, I don’t think the best way to inspire and motivate kids like you is to blow a bunch of sunshine up your butt.

 

[Holly]

We don't have anything like that at our schools.


There is class rank.
There are try outs for sports teams, and they keep score.
We still have field day.


I don't see any of it changing anytime soon, either.


I don't see how that "everyone wins" crap is good for kids. If a kid stinks at sports maybe he or she will excel at art or music. Everyone can't be good at everything and schools that are teaching kids they can be are just setting them up for disappointment.

 

[kamik86]

I really don't see the "everyone is equal" philosophy in high school at all. Do some of you see that in your local high school?

I went to a high school where there were two levels of classes for SOME subjects "honors" and "normal" there wasn't much of a difference at all. Although honors sometimes had less behavior issues.

Gym classes didn't keep score, although the students did sometimes. The only art thing we had was a play that you would get a part if you tried out. Sports teams were the same for the most part although there were one or two teams that had enough people try out where there were a cut or two.

The biggest ones were in the classes themselves though. It took us longer to read MacBeth in English class then the performance thing mentioned above took to memorize all the lines and stage it... oh this was the honors class by the way. The teacher was teaching from spark notes and we read most of the play in class becasue "people aren't going to read it at home anyway". This was not an exception this was the rule for my classes there.

We had a few teachers that would push the students that could do so but not many and it definitely wasn't helped by the school.

The only area that had any competition at all was the shop classes. It was a vocational school so we did the VICA competitions for our shop areas. Those at least had winners and were ranked when they happened once a year and if your shop was one that did co-ops there was a standard to be able to do one.

The worst cases came senior year. Because Physics was such a HARD class anyone could repeat any assignment from the whole year during the last month to manage to pass the class... yeah those include the ones you just never bothered to turn in. And someone that I know that stopped shower up for the last two months? My shop teacher called her at home trying to convince her to come back and that he would take a project she did last year (our junior project which this student did put more effort in and continue to keep up) and count it as her senior project (although it really shouldn't have qualified) so that she would be able to graduate.

The more I think about it the more examples I can come up with. Speical classes for just the students that couldn't pass the MCAS (massachusetts test that you have to pass to graduate) where they pretty much dropped everything they should learn junior and senior year to concentrate just on this test (which is at a sophmore level) so they have some hope of passing it... stories from a friend a few years older then me that became a high school teacher. Like the one about the girl she had that did no work in her class and failed. The girl knew she failed and was willing to take the consequences but her mom complained to the principal so much my friend was made to give the student extra credit assignements so she could pass.

 

[threecrazykids]

I like to win. Period. When I do things, I do them wholeheartedly or not at all. That being said, not teaching kids life's valuable lessons is doing them a huge disservice. You're removing one of life's greatest lessons-IT'S OK TO LOSE. You can't win at everything! No matter how good you are, someone out there is better. Someone is richer than you, smarter than you, cooler friends, etc. Someone out there can kick your *** at everything, and then literally kick your ***.

And because of this, kids NEED to learn how to lose graciously! The feeling of winning is empty without the disappointment of losing.

"It's just for fun". Yeah. And unless you are a miserable kind of person, most things in life will be. Humans revel in accomplishments, regardless of how big or small they are. We're not doing our kids ANY favors by protecting them against everything. They HAVE to learn to not only stumble, but fall flat on their face! You're denying them from getting up, doing it over and over until they succeed in their efforts and smell the scent of victory over the rest!

Like Bill Gates said - "Your school may have done away with winners and losers but life has not. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as many chances as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to anything in real life".

Looking at our future I see a lot of adult sycophants and whiners. Everything is someone else's fault. Everything is unfair. And it will be our fault. WE created this monster. Entitlement- minded kids, where winners are punished and losers are propped up. Not being graded on what you do, but that you tried.

When there are no winners and losers there is no need to expend any effort. The result will be the same whether you work/play hard or not. In that case, why work/play at all?

 

[okeydokey]

Mike Rowe, of Dirty Jobs fame, has weighed in on this topic. Rowe published on the Internet a letter a father asked him to write to his son who was having trouble getting motivated to complete the rank of Eagle Scout (Rowe is an Eagle). Afterwards, a 2nd Scout wrote to him and said that he was offended by Rowe's implication that if you didn't earn your Eagle you would lead a "mediocre" life. Mike, in his response to the 2nd Scout included:

That was awesome

 

[barkley]

OP, just in regards to the part about eliminating class rank...

I'm not familiar with your specific area, but the school districts around me that have done so are very good and VERY competitive school districts. They were so competitive that they would have people playing the system to acheive the top class rank. Example, using a medical excuse to get exempted from the normally required gym, and taking a highly-weighted AP class in place of the gym class (whose grade carries just a "regular" weight) and therefore getting an advantage over the other top students who had their gpas affected by the gym grade, etc. Also, kids wouldn't take electives in a new subject area for fear they might not do well, and wouldn't take a class if it was "regular" because it would negatively affect their ranking.
Also these schools were finding that they had so many kids who performed so well, that someone with a 3.75 was in the bottom 50% of the class. At many other schools, that 3.75 would put you in the top 20%. (I don't remember if these were the exact numbers, but you get the idea.)

Again I'm not familiar with the OP's school, but you may want to look more into the reasons for why they decided to do it. I'm not saying I agree with it (my kids school ranks).

using the medical excuse would'nt fly here. you have to get your p.e. credits to graduate. if a doctor sez you can't do p.e. they are going to get sent an adaptive form to see what accommodations can be made. if the doctor sez flat out you can't do ANY physical aspects of it then you will get a written p.e. curriculum (think health education, technical aspects/rules of different sports, diet, nutrition...) and you will end up taking that for your p.e. credits-no swapping out the units to get into a heavier weighted a/p class.

on electives the kids have a flat number of credits they need to graduate, but the credits have to spread out under different subjects, and different classes within those subject areas. you can't do like i did in highschool and eat up all your electives with 4 years of choir and drama, you have to take so many in industrial arts, so many in fine arts, so many in humanities....(and you can't double dip and take take the same course, like choir, 2 years in a row and have both of them count for elective credits).

 

[NHdisneylover]

Has anybody here ever read Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegutt Jr? It's like that is the direction society is headed in. I included a link for anyone who wants to read this short story.

http://www.nationalreview.com/nroriginals/?q=MDllNmVmNGU1NDVjY2IzODBlMjYzNDljZTMzNzFlZjc=#more

This is EXACTLY what I thought of.

 

[Geoff_M]

I read Harrison Bergeron in a class in high school and it's stuck with me ever since. Great story!

 

[Mkrop]

Well since there are no winners or losers. I want to be President, I want to have a Nobel Prize and an Oscar. Now please note I did not say I want to win those, that would be silly. I just want them.


See there is no winning or losing in the real world

 

[penn19]

That isn't really true. The man who sells $3 million worth of widgets is going to be "graded" better then that man who sells $100,000 worth. He might be graded with a higher wage (or commission) or with a promotion while the under performer is graded with a firing.

Also, to address the gifted classes, those should be reserved for the exceptional. If more then the top 1-5% can get in it isn't all that gifted. Just because your kid is smarter than average doesn't make them gifted.

When schools brag about 90% of their students being in advanced classes I am not impressed, I just think their advanced classes are way too easy.

 

[penn19]

I feel sorry for school administrators and anyone who tries to run an athletic program for youths. On the one hand they have the super competitive parents who insist that there must be winners or losers and there must be class rankings. On the other hand they have the parents who are complaining that their little snowflakes' feelings were hurt because they were on the losing team or weren't tops in their class.

Either way, everyone seems to think that it is all about them and what they want -- that is what really worries me....

You are correct. I help run the local sports league in our town, and I cannot tell you how many times I am left speechless by parents who call or email and say "I would like to get my child on a team that wins. I feel it will be better for him to be on a winning team then a losing team". And their child may never have even played the sport before, but they want the winning team!